Living Dead

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

That would make it just as bad as it already is, it's just shifting the burden of removing LD from 2 healers to 1 tank. And it does not stop there, as you need a target to life steal from, you end up adding all of Holmgang's restrictions to it.

Also please, DARK knight is NOT "death" knight. The only thing that relates to undeath is the move that's causing all the problems the class has and it feels out of place even thematically.

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Dont see why it can have some aspects like that especially since soul eater,sole survivor and blood spiller all sounds like a death knight move
Living dead reversing damage would definitely fix it and be much more unique shouldn't have the 0 healing though
Should just be left like that

I dont think the insurance move should have such a down fall with Big CD
PLD you just have to wait for the dance,
And Holmgang benefits out weight the negatives.

I mean living dead back in Alexander 3 savage whas one of the ways to get a massive dmg lead on the boss just because you could solo tank the band for a short while. The problem with living dead is just with exception of the root and the timer it is active and the ‘Borrowed time’ is effect it’s more or less a 1 hp I need heal situation. The tank still needs to healed with the difference that holm gives you the freedom of how mutch, LD just say 100 % and you rarely have 100 % perfectly, it’s either over heal or not enough that mostly ends in over heal. And the biggest plus is the cd, hg with his 3 mins that in a really long fight (ultimate) you have around 5 times then LD 3 times. I play Drk, pld and war a lot and I still believe holm is busted.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

That would make it just as bad as it already is, it's just shifting the burden of removing LD from 2 healers to 1 tank. And it does not stop there, as you need a target to life steal from, you end up adding all of Holmgang's restrictions to it.

Also please, DARK knight is NOT "death" knight. The only thing that relates to undeath is the move that's causing all the problems the class has and it feels out of place even thematically.

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The burden would need to be adjusted not to be too heavy (or work in a different manner) but it should sit on the tank shoulders i believe (DK doing well will be rewarded while now the DK with a better healer is).

Dark not being Death is right, but, during that skill, the DK IS an undead (I suppose the idea is that his mastery of dark arts allows him to cheat death for a time).

You stated this issue tho:

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And it does not stop there, as you need a target to life steal from

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This is probably the stronger flaw in my suggestion as in this game you don't have an available target sometimes during mechs.

The biggest issue to me has always been that living dead requires another player to know how it works (the healer) and said healer may not even know what living dead is.

Having to rely on someone else to use your skill immediately makes it useless. PLD had the same thing with divine veil so they changed it so PLD could proc it themselves and that’s not nearly as big of a deal as the tanks invulnerability skill!

My suggested change for LD is to make it so that upon using it you can’t be healed anymore for the 10 second duration but if you hit 1hp you instantly recover full health and the status is removed. This would make it somewhat require good timing on the DRKs part or it would actually be a hinderance since if they don’t hit 1hp they’ve just wasted any potential healing they could have had in that time. But it would make it useful even when independent of a healer and a healer who doesn’t know how it works will soon learn as it’s only their own time/mp being wasted trying to cure the DRK rather than risking the DRKs life.

I think this would make it fit the in between hallowed and holmgang vibe it’s going for way better, having a shorter CD than hallowed but a stronger effect than holmgang. (Only useful if you hit 1hp like holmgang but also giving you a full heal if you do).

I agree you should alway be able to proc your own skills alone but wouldn't your change make LD much weaker tho? I mean:

PAL wih HG on= cant be wounded REGARDLESS of damage/number of hits received
WAR wit HOL= can be wounded but can't die REGARDLESS of damage/number of hits received

They'll both survive even 5 1 million HP worth hits:

A 30k HP PAL would receive no damage from any of those hit
a 30k HP WAR would be brought down to 1 HP with the first hit but then will receive no damage from the others (unless he gets healed but again that would just waste the healer MP and the WAR would be brought back to 1 HP with next hit but will never die)


While a 30k DRK would be:

1st hit: brought to 1 HP
Auto Heal from LD -> bring him back to 30K
2 hit: death

At any rate those skills are supposed to help you when a healer can't; it's pointless to make an healer need it: in 4 man if someone dies and the healer uses raise without having swiftcast available, even if it's an "oh shit" moment you can use em (as a WAR/PAL not very wise as a DRK tho).
If the healer dies an a smn/rdm is ressing him you don't want to use this skill as a DRK or you'll probably die as well.

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Originally Posted by Noldornir

I agree you should alway be able to proc your own skills alone but wouldn't your change make LD much weaker tho? I mean:

PAL wih HG on= cant be wounded REGARDLESS of damage/number of hits received
WAR wit HOL= can be wounded but can't die REGARDLESS of damage/number of hits received

They'll both survive even 5 1 million HP worth hits:

A 30k HP PAL would receive no damage from any of those hit
a 30k HP WAR would be brought down to 1 HP with the first hit but then will receive no damage from the others (unless he gets healed but again that would just waste the healer MP and the WAR would be brought back to 1 HP with next hit but will never die)


While a 30k DRK would be:

1st hit: brought to 1 HP
Auto Heal from LD -> bring him back to 30K
2 hit: death

At any rate those skills are supposed to help you when a healer can't; it's pointless to make an healer need it: in 4 man if someone dies and the healer uses raise without having swiftcast available, even if it's an "oh shit" moment you can use em (as a WAR/PAL not very wise as a DRK tho).
If the healer dies an a smn/rdm is ressing him you don't want to use this skill as a DRK or you'll probably die as well.

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Yes that is the major issue with the design, it means that DRK would be the only tank who can’t eat, let’s say, ahk morn solo, but outside of attempting to cheese mechanics like that, I can’t think of any scenario where the game throws multiple attacks that can 1 shot you in such quick succession and there are scenarios where current LD and hallowed work where holmgang doesn’t for cheese strats so I’d say it’s fair for DRK to have that too.

I'm not sure why people are trying to figure out an appropriate penalty for Living Dead. Hallowed Ground doesn't have a penalty. It just has you ignore damage. It's powerful. It makes you feel good for using it. The recast isn't a penalty either. Invulns should be on a 5-7 minute recast at the very minimum. That's just good design.

Holmgang doesn't actually have a penalty. It prevents knockback. It has a stupidly low recast, to the point of being one of the single most broken abilities in the game. It's powerful. It feels good to use.

So why should we settle for having to have healers burn their cooldowns to save us from Living Dead? Simply for the privilege of doing what other tanks can do in their sleep? I'm sorry, but it's not acceptable.

If you want Living Dead to actually represent a "middle ground" between Hallowed and Holmgang, then two things must happen. First, you need a full 10 seconds of invulnerability, regardless of what happens. Second, when you hit 1 HP, you need some sort of a self-healing effect, either through your own attacks or your enemies', which starts making your HP tick back up. That's the middle ground between negating damage and preventing death. Stop penalising us for using our ultimate ability, and let it actually feel good to use.

And either way, there is no reason why Holmgang should be less than five minutes. The existence of a three minute recast invincibility is why progression raiders are laughing their way through your tankbusters. Stop trivialising the content.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

Sigmascape Savage 1.0 and 2.0 did a good job of exploiting the holes in Holmgang's kit. You can't solo the stack winds from 2.0 (specifically the second one, nothing nearby to Holmgang to), and if your co-tank in 1.0 gets trapped before a tankswap, it is impossible to drop the prey marker at far back and get back in time to holmgang, I've tried (instead, have to place it not as far back, so you have time to return).

/shrug. Just my thoughts on the matter.

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i recomend you to put "How to solo soak 2nd O6S Flash Gale stack marker as WAR" on google you will be surprised.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Hallowed Ground doesn't have a penalty. The recast isn't a penalty.

Holmgang has a stupidly low recast, to the point of being one of the single most broken abilities in the game.

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So recast isn't a penalty but holmgang's recast makes it too strong? Get your story straight.

All the tank invulns have benefits and drawbacks to them.

Hallowed has a long duration and powerful effect with the drawback being that it has a long cooldown lowering its usability to once maybe twice per fight.
Holmgang has a short recast with the drawback being it has an extremely short duration and only actually does anything if you hit 1hp requiring a lot better timing and skill to make use of it than hallowed.
Living dead has the highest potential duration with a cooldown between the other two, while sharing the 1hp drawback with holmgang while adding the healer requirement/death penalty on top of that.

the bolded is the part people take issue with, the longer duration benefit is made up for by the longer recast drawback. So there is no reason for there to be ANOTHER additional stipulation on top of that. The drawbacks of LD start to outweigh any benefits and make it not worth using.

LD doesn't need a drastic rework, if it didn't have the healing requirement and walking dead was just a 10 second holmgang then it would be completely fine. It is simply the healing drawback that pushes it over the edge.

The single most important feature of an invulnerability cooldown is the number of tankbusters that you can mitigate with it per fight. Generally speaking, this is determined by recast. When you look at Living Dead and Hallowed's recasts, you're generally not going to get an extra use of Living Dead over Hallowed. Why? Most fights are about ten minutes long. So as long as you can invuln a tankbuster in the first 3 minutes, you're probably going to get the same amount of uses out of Hallowed as well. If you contrast this with Holmgang, which has less than half the recast of Hallowed, it becomes quickly obvious that you will get an extra use out of Holmgang on every fight.

Living Dead only mitigates damage when Walking Dead is active. Because the effect gets cleansed by a healer, the maximum possible duration is 9 seconds. More often than not, however, this effect gets cleansed much sooner for a few reasons. First, not every group has access to Benediction, and your healer has no way of knowing how much remaining healing you require if they're manually removing the effect. So you're going to get spammed with heals until the effect disappears, generally well before 9 seconds. Second, most healers just aren't comfortable waiting until the last possible second to remove the effect. The end result is that Living Dead, on average, tends to have a much, much shorter duration than even Holmgang.

Living Dead does need a rework from the point of view that it's a badly designed ability. But that's a DRK-specific issue. Holmgang needs a longer recast simply because the existence of such a short recast invincibility move trivialises content. That not just an issue that impacts WAR, it impacts how all groups run content. Before they do anything else, they need to push the invuln recasts back to at least 5/6/7 minutes for WAR/DRK/PLD. Possibly longer.