Cleric Stance Discussion - Is it needed?

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Originally Posted by VeliusVire

I don't think many Healers who don't want to DPS realise how much worse their predicament would become if this change were to happen, because now they have absolutely no excuse for not contributing DPS, thus making the Healer DPS Meta pretty much guaranteed across the board.

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I think most just aren't comfy with being in a stance that slashes their healing ability and can't jump quick enough when something unpredictable happens. Getting rid of that ball and chain would probably make people feel better about throwing that Stone 2 or Gravity. :)

Yes. Without it healing would be more brain dead than 2.0 black mage.

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Originally Posted by Elleia

I feel like removing cleric stance would be a bad idea. Yes, if they remove it and scale healer DPS off of mind, it becomes easier...but the risk of cleric stance and knowing when to use it is part of the fun for me. I get to challenge myself and see how much damage I can output while still keeping everyone up. This would be made pretty trivial if there was no stance dancing involved.

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WildStar was able to easily pull this off with Spellslinger and Medic. Medic being the pure melee healer that stay in melee range and its aoe and cone attacks would heal allies and damage enemies. It also put out little robots that stays near each party member and pulsates small heals to them, a HoT. Spellslinger was a ranged healer with long, thin attacks (in either | or \|/ form) that you would build up to unleash powerfull spells, and it also healed those within its path. Both healers also had regular, normal heals for targets.

It's just all about being creative, and jumping to and fro between a stance that just seems like extra baggage doesn't seem very creative than where to properly place your aoe and stand your character so you can utilize the best of your heals and your damage spells. Don't forget, you're doing all this while also dodging very quick aoes that do stupid huge amounts of damage

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Originally Posted by PocketVolcano

WildStar was able to easily pull this off with Spellslinger and Medic. Medic being the pure melee healer that stay in melee range and its aoe and cone attacks would heal allies and damage enemies. It also put out little robots that stays near each party member and pulsates small heals to them, a HoT. Spellslinger was a ranged healer with long, thin attacks (in either | or \|/ form) that you would build up to unleash powerfull spells, and it also healed those within its path. Both healers also had regular, normal heals for targets.

It's just all about being creative, and jumping to and fro between a stance that just seems like extra baggage doesn't seem very creative than where to properly place your aoe and stand your character so you can utilize the best of your heals and your damage spells.

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Can't say I'm very familiar with WildStar, but isn't the combat more action focused, with dodging and things like that? It sounds interesting but I'm not sure how well it would translate to a game like this one with GCDs. And while it does seem creative, and maybe they can use a similar concept for a new healer down the line, I doubt they'll revamp the three current healers so heavily for Stormblood. If they decide to remove cleric stance, that'll probably be all they do - scale healer DPS off of mind and call it a day. We likely won't get an interesting new system for healer dps like you outlined in your post.

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Originally Posted by Elleia

Can't say I'm very familiar with WildStar, but isn't the combat more action focused, with dodging and things like that? It sounds interesting but I'm not sure how well it would translate to a game like this one with GCDs. And while it does seem creative, and maybe they can use a similar concept for a new healer down the line, I doubt they'll revamp the three current healers so heavily for Stormblood. If they decide to remove cleric stance, that'll probably be all they do - scale healer DPS off of mind and call it a day. We likely won't get an interesting new system for healer dps like you outlined in your post.

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As i recall from the time i played from the rework of the game it it's more combat/dogde oriented, yes, but FFXIV already has that feeling (we are smashing buttons fast on a rotation of our abilities and runing avoiding AoE), the only thing we dont have about that it's a dash button of some sort... Maybe a couple of abilities that some classes have to move fast from point A to B and thats it if i am not mistaken.

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As for the post itself and the Cleric Stance, if they do that they would have to balance the damage so the healers dont beat pure dps classes in terms of dps. Sch has it's dots (and those are pretty powerful by themselves), the other two Holy and Gravity (along another strong single target spells or more Aoe if we talk about Whm). I have not healed in a long time, but i recall using the last to help clearing trash mobs with good numbers and i know i am not pretty well geared with the class. Stance dancing is fun and involves a certain risk on doing it as i see it, removing it would improve the healers and encourage them to use theyr damage kit even more. But, as i said, they would have to balance it or i can see the forums on fire again about theyr potential on healing/damage in comparasion with another classes. (And i am pointing at those who have lower dps for their support kit)

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Originally Posted by PocketVolcano

I think most just aren't comfy with being in a stance that slashes their healing ability and can't jump quick enough when something unpredictable happens. Getting rid of that ball and chain would probably make people feel better about throwing that Stone 2 or Gravity. :)

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Pretty much this.

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Originally Posted by Zhamkyong

As i recall from the time i played from the rework of the game it it's more combat/dogde oriented, yes, but FFXIV already has that feeling (we are smashing buttons fast on a rotation of our abilities and runing avoiding AoE), the only thing we dont have about that it's a dash button of some sort... Maybe a couple of abilities that some classes have to move fast from point A to B and thats it if i am not mistaken.

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Yes it is! :) The GCDs are also very similar in speed in WildStar as in FFXIV. Didn't Yoshi say they were putting in a dodge-roll or something? Or was it just suggested? Either way it's a fully implemented mechanic in Wildstar and it works well alongside the high intensity fights and healing demands!

I think the dev team can do more with healer dps and getting some inspo from high action games and how they do it could be a stepping point.

From what I understand, if they removed cleric and allowed full dps any time, it would wreck the pvp balance they have by not allowing cleric dps. Granted, they could fix that by putting an 80% dps down debuff on healers but that is one of their reasons. If they were to remove cleric, it would be in 5.0 as they would have to rework a lot of content around it. The other issue about removing cleric is that the demands for people to dps all the time would skyrocket.

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Originally Posted by Delmontyb

...do we still want the Stance Dance? Or would something else be better?...

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I'm for cleric stance no more. If stance dance was something planned, just add some cast time to dps skills instead.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

...The other issue about removing cleric is that the demands for people to dps all the time would skyrocket.

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It will not, if healers gets adeguately debuffed about damage output. The demand of dps from healer is high because healer can put out good numbers, and this is something unexpected by that role.

Here is a crazy cool idea:

Ditch Cleric Stance, give all healers a passive trait that increases their damage the closer the party members are to full health. If everyone is at 100%, full damage bonus. If anyone is dead, no bonus. This would make sure that a healer's first job is always to keep the party healthy, and if everyone is super healthy, then they are encouraged to deal damage. You also get to blame the DPS for stepping on the AoEs and mechanics for the healer's low damage output.

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Originally Posted by Ogulbuk

Ditch Cleric Stance, give all healers a passive trait that increases their damage the closer the party members are to full health. If everyone is at 100%, full damage bonus. If anyone is dead, no bonus. This would make sure that a healer's first job is always to keep the party healthy, and if everyone is super healthy, then they are encouraged to deal damage. You also get to blame the DPS for stepping on the AoEs and mechanics for the healer's low damage output.

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That destroys the concept of letting HoTs like Medica II and Whispering Dawn carry the healing load though when no one is going to die from the next AOE mechanic. I could argue about how those spells are a huge part of the problem, but that's an entirely different discussion. Suffice it to say, it's not uncommon for skilled healers to know when they can let the party get topped off from regens and DPS in the meantime, even if people are hovering at around 50% health for part of it.