WAR love is out of hand. Twelve forbid the other Tanks stand out in any way.

https://youtu.be/XhLfcwsqeOE
Video of parse from pld/drk/war in their OT role same gear, all with str pt bonus, same food slashing debuff for pld/drk brought by a warrior outside of party, also goad/tp regen from machinist was used to parse all 3 over 5 mins.
For ppl too lazy to watch:
WAR 1021 dps
PLD 941 dps
DRK 970 dps

Gear can also be seen at the begin of the video

I'd be surprised and depressed if they did. Right now both dark knight and paladin have higher potency/damage dots, including a 525 pot aoe.

Course, if they did, I'd expect them to nerf both goring blade's Salted Earth's and scourge's dots too.

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Originally Posted by Disc

Uncontrolled tests do not provide valuable numbers. You need the exact same gear/food/composition/skill/attributes/time, and both using equally optimum rotations.

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The quoted link was the same person using the same gear and food. It had PLD at 836 DPS and WAR at 1054, he has since removed the parses though.

The PLD numbers I can reproduce myself

Gear - http://i.imgur.com/CY5GO3P.jpg (The top non-meld accessory is slaying, the i176 is purely because the melded accessories are i150)
Sword Oath Parse - http://i.imgur.com/AHa7Jo0.jpg (Not a care given to maintaining enmity)
Shield Oath Parse - http://i.imgur.com/XfG5Y2S.jpg (This was rotating all 3 combos)

The next combo would have put me TP dead.

Food is just NQ Deep-Fried Okeanis (30 SkS, 10 Det) because it's what i had laying around in my invent so not optimum. Obviously slashing debuff is not present. Nor is the STR party buff.

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Originally Posted by Shinzee

https://youtu.be/XhLfcwsqeOE
Video of parse from pld/drk/war in their OT role same gear, all with str pt bonus, same food slashing debuff for pld/drk brought by a warrior outside of party, also goad/tp regen from machinist was used to parse all 3 over 5 mins.
For ppl too lazy to watch:
WAR 1021 dps
PLD 941 dps
DRK 970 dps

Gear can also be seen at the begin of the video

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So basically that breaks down to the below I think

WAR 1021
DRK (with debuff) - 970
PLD (with debuff) - 941
DRK (without debuff) - 881
PLD (without debuff) - 855

Would need numbers when people are MT'ing to work out total composition damage. For Faust at least I did 714 DPS as PLD MT today with this gear (http://i.imgur.com/CY5GO3P.jpg). That was with Shield Oath up for 3 combos then switching to Sword Oath then switching back to Shield Oath at 6 stacks (which I could probably get away with not doing for a slight DPS increase)

Parses I've seen of MT WAR's on Faust were ~830-870 when filtered to just Faust damage but I have no idea on their gear.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

You totally chose to ignore Thrill of Battle. A direct increase of 20% EHP. If you think EHP is not mitigation you're just wasting time on technicalities. IB+ToB is an EHP increase of 50%. IB+TOB+Veng is an increase of 114%. IB+ToB+Veng+Raw is a ridiculous increase of 167%.

Outside of Inner Beast, Defiance and Deliverance have no damage mitigation difference. WAR can slip into deliverance whenever he's not about to get his face rearranged and handed to him for extra DPS.

TP issues in a real fight almost do not exist. 1) All fights currently have breaks, all of them. Exceptions were T8 and T11. And they don't matter any more. 2) This is a team game. All of the melee DPS are prone to TP issues and your BRD/MCH WILL recover your TP. Believe it or not, it's how PLDs got through in the past.

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You're right, I did not count thrill of battle. It operates on a different level, providing a set buffer.

At base 25,000 damage favoring Defiance HP boost(no heal) against tankbusters a WAR is looking at IB+Raw+TB 50.8%, IB+Raw+Veng 70%%, or IB+Veng+TB 58.8%. A PLD has Rampart+Shel 36%, Rampart+Shel+Sent 61.6%, or Rampart+Sent 52%.(avg~3700buffer)

However, this mitigation decreases as enemy damage scales in proportion to WAR HP, PLD is pure % based mitigation. The value I used was based on A1S, there will be times when you see much more damage.(A2S for example, Hallowed or bust) The timer is also troublesome at 120 seconds as opposed to the 60-90second PLD/DRK CDs most fights are built around, making every other tankbuster a best case scenario, but likely 1 in 3. If you would like to do the math on an optimum rotation for all four floors...

WAR stance dancing can actually be counterproductive now. Boomcannon for instance does damage dealt based on how far you are from max HP. A PLD sitting at 5000/5000HP no buffs will take 1 damage while a WAR who popped Defiance might just die.

Currently in AS1 & AS2 I can & will bottom out my TP as both DRK & PLD unless I take DPS hits to cast spells or Shield Swipe, I'll let you know about 3 & 4 when I get there. BRD/MCH will replenish TP/MP based on party needs and when it's appropriate. They're not going to start singing Paeon 60 seconds before a phase change because the PLD bottomed out TP before everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Kaith

So basically that breaks down to...STOP

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WAR did 8.5% more than PLD. DRK did 3% more than PLD. The sky isn't falling.

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

So sad, in 2.0 I couldn't survive Hoodswipe in darklight. Now that our class can burst for huge damage and tank no prob, ppl are #butthurt. I wasn't on the the forums complaining I was stuck in ot prior to 3.0, so stop complaining about the glory that is the Warrior nowadays. The crybabies will get their buffs next patch.

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These responses do absolutely nothing positive, please do not post them. I'm not sure why people feel like this is WAR vs PLD. We're all on the same side.

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Originally Posted by Kaith

WAR 1021
DRK (with debuff) - 970
PLD (with debuff) - 941
DRK (without debuff) - 881
PLD (without debuff) - 855.

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I see absolutely nothing wrong with this. If this is really the extent of the DPS difference with same gear/weapon ilvl then there is no issue with DPS on tanks. Dark Knight still needs a bit more utility in my opinion and Paladin could use some help in the AoE damage/single target enmity department, but it's nothing game-breaking.

Yeah for the record. I don't want a WAR nerf. I would like minor QoL changes for PLD when MT'ing rather than a boost to damage when OT'ing (as I know my arguments may make it sound otherwise). I'm fine with where we are when OT'ing.

Oaths off global cooldown (which I know not everyone wanted)
Swipe off global cooldown
Some sort of change to Swipe additional affect

Those seem like minor things but would offer a non-neglible DPS increase when MT'ing (and nothing when OT'ing). Swipe would be a TP drain so spamming it would be limited by your TP.

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Originally Posted by Disc

WAR did 8.5% more than PLD. DRK did 3% more than PLD. The sky isn't falling.

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19.5% when the slashing debuff is taken into account. Which is something you should take into account when 1 job gets it natively and the other job is reliant on receiving it from an outside source. Even 19.5% is fine though as an OT.

The problem is when MT'ing. You're not going to wipe from incoming damage because you used a WAR MT over a PLD MT. There is a far more likely possibility of wiping due to not meeting the DPS check. So it makes more sense to take a WAR over a PLD as both OT and MT right now, especially as the gap should widen up to slightly more than 19.5% from PLD stance dancing being clunkier (breaking combos unless you delay it and eating GCDs)

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Originally Posted by Naelle

I see absolutely nothing wrong with this. If this is really the extent of the DPS difference with same gear/weapon ilvl then there is no issue with DPS on tanks. Dark Knight still needs a bit more utility in my opinion and Paladin could use some help in the AoE damage/single target enmity department, but it's nothing game-breaking.

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All the jobs are ilvl 180, all with ravana weapon and exactly same gear setup in that video
Also while its true that war can slash debuff for himself compared to drk/pld its no singleplayer game if you build up your team without taking into account that all tanks benefit from slashing debuff and still dont make sure to have a war or nin in your setup thats just bad team composition.

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Originally Posted by Shinzee

WAR 1021 dps
PLD 941 dps
DRK 970 dps

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Thank you for taking the effort. Hope this opens up some people's eyes.

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Originally Posted by Disc

However, this mitigation decreases as enemy damage scales in proportion to WAR HP, PLD is pure % based mitigation.

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There is absolutely no difference between increasing your HP by a % or reducing damage by a %. Defiance and Shield Oath/Grit show that. Rampart is literally a 25% EHP increase. This fact doesn't change no matter how hard the boss hits in proportion to the PLD's HP. ToB's mitigation does not decrease. ToB literally translates to 17% damage reduction in proportion to max HP.

The problem with directly increasing EHP instead of reducing damage is that effective "healing" takes a hit. Coupling Convalescence with ToB alleviates that problem.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

There is absolutely no difference between increasing your HP by a % or reducing damage by a %.

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Other than the difference between your HP & the damage you are taking. We'll assume AS1 25,000 damage tankbuster again, and a WAR with base 15,500 HP or 19375HP in Defiance. Thrill of Battle is a 20% increase to HP+heal.(19375HP * 0.20Thrill Modifier = +3785HP)

That +3785HP acts as a shield absorbing a flat amount of damage, like Adloquium.(25000 - 3785 = 21215)
(21215/25000)*100 = 84.86 damage remaining, 15.14% damage mitigation from Thrill of Battle

Now we'll assume AS1 25,000 damage tankbuster again, and a WAR with base 15,500 HP no Defiance. Thrill of Battle is a 20% increase to HP+heal.(15500HP * 0.20Thrill Modifier = +3100HP)
(25000 - 3100 = 21900)
(21900/25000)*100 = 87.6% damage remaining, a 12.4% damage mitigation from Thrill of Battle

Thrill of Battle when used as a shield is based on your HP, not the damage dealt. In AS1 that is very good with the already low damage because it can result in an extremely high amount of mitigation.

IB+Veng+TB in this same scenario at 15500 HP would turn to
[(25000 Damage) * (0.80 IB) * (0.70 Vengeance) ] = 14000 damage dealt 44% mitigation
14000 damage - 3100HP Thrill of Battle = 10900 directed at your base 15500HP, 76.4% mitigation. Thrill of Battle boosted effective mitigation by 22.4% in this scenario.

Higher Damage: %Mitigation > %HP
Lower Damage: %Mitigation < %HP

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Originally Posted by Kaith

19.5% when the slashing debuff is taken into account. Which is something you should take into account when 1 job gets it natively and the other job is reliant on receiving it from an outside source. Even 19.5% is fine though as an OT.

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The slashing debuff should just be considered constant regardless.
If there's no WAR, there should be a NIN.

While in some cases there might not be either, I don't think that would be the default assumption when comparing.
Either you always compare both with and without the debuff, or with the debuff as a constant since it's not exclusive to WAR.