Bard - they broke my job

A1S, at least with what I'm seeing from Havoc's spreadsheet, BRDs and MCH are still last of the DPS. Comparing BRD top scores to DRG(was in a good spot before, is in a good spot now) top scores puts us roughly around where we were before.

A2S. Yay AoEs! We do well here.

A3S. I don't have enough information to really say anything here.

(I think this is public, but if it isn't let me know and I'll remove the link)Havoc's High Scores spreadsheet, the only thing I've been able to find with any real info: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...view?sle=true#

Cool, so my post got deleted because it contained Lucrezia's parse screen or because someone reported me for it, IDK..
Well, can't really have a good discussion without numbers..

TL;DR of my long, unnecessarily deleted post:
IMO BRDs are in better position now, in average parties they can do more or similar DPS as some other DPS jobs.
If they deleted Minuet, they would have to lower the DPS, which is uneacceptable.
Any BRD that is currently having problem with his DPS might check KrietoR's guide and get WTFast (even for free, the trial is unlimited) if he is from Europe, it helps a lot.

Also dummy parses are kinda useless, in every fight you will have to move a bit or even stance dance (A1s add phase). Also every fight gives you the ability to multi DoT.
It is better for you to compare your DPS with others in real fights. If you don't raid, I would suggest Alex as Ravana and Bis EX are bit tricky.

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Originally Posted by dielray

A1S, at least with what I'm seeing from Havoc's spreadsheet, BRDs and MCH are still last of the DPS. Comparing BRD top scores to DRG(was in a good spot before, is in a good spot now) top scores puts us roughly around where we were before.

A2S. Yay AoEs! We do well here.

A3S. I don't have enough information to really say anything here.

(I think this is public, but if it isn't let me know and I'll remove the link)Havoc's High Scores spreadsheet, the only thing I've been able to find with any real info: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...view?sle=true#

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Not sure if your post will stay unchanged, because of the numbers, but I think that it shows that the difference is not so high (except SMN), atleast for A1.
If we compared the best people in A1, BRD is doing around 100 less than other jobs (except SMN) and is on par with NIN, which is kinda nice realising that we still have songs.

IMO if we compared % of difference before HW and after HW, I believe we are much closer to melees right now.

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

Cool, so my post got deleted because it contained Lucrezia's parse screen or because someone reported me for it, IDK..
Well, can't really have a good discussion without numbers..

TL;DR of my long, unnecessarily deleted post:
IMO BRDs are in better position now, in average parties they can do more or similar DPS as some other DPS jobs.
If they deleted Minuet, they would have to lower the DPS, which is uneacceptable.
Any BRD that is currently having problem with his DPS might check KrietoR's guide and get WTFast (even for free, the trial is unlimited) if he is from Europe, it helps a lot.

Also dummy parses are kinda useless, in every fight you will have to move a bit or even stance dance (A1s add phase). Also every fight gives you the ability to multi DoT.
It is better for you to compare your DPS with others in real fights. If you don't raid, I would suggest Alex as Ravana and Bis EX are bit tricky.

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That's really dumb. Your post was incredibly informative, non-condescending, and it could have helped plenty of Bards up their game. I hope that doesn't discourage you from posting more information in the future.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

That's really dumb. Your post was incredibly informative, non-condescending, and it could have helped plenty of Bards up their game. I hope that doesn't discourage you from posting more information in the future.

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Thank you for the support.
Well I never use numbers to harrass others, only to inform, so I hope I am not balancing on the edge of getting banned lol. xD

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

IMO BRDs are in better position now, in average parties they can do more or similar DPS as some other DPS jobs.

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From experience, they are not. Speaking of equally skilled players, the gap between BRD and other DPS used to be much smaller, relatively speaking. As I said in another post, it went from ~6% to ~20% DPS difference.

Of course, I think it ultimately depends on player skill more than anything, but we're not in a better position if the complexity of the job increased and the relative DPS decreased.

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Originally Posted by Inferiae

From experience, they are not. Speaking of equally skilled players, the gap between BRD and other DPS used to be much smaller, relatively speaking. As I said in another post, it went from ~6% to ~20% DPS difference.

Of course, I think it ultimately depends on player skill more than anything, but we're not in a better position if the complexity of the job increased and the relative DPS decreased.

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I know, I replied to your posts with video and parse screens from different statics including mine. Unfortunately it got deleted so I am kinda unable to argue with you, all I can say for now is that I disagree..
In comparison with SMN the difference got higher imo, but in comparison with other DPSes and even melees I believe we are doing better, but discussing that is kinda waste of time, if we cannot provide evidence in our posts. :)

EDIT: My opinion is based on my own experience from HW raiding plus on parses from HC teams like Lucrezia and also other statics from Ragnarok.

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

I know, I replied to your posts with video and parse screens from different statics including mine. Unfortunately it got deleted so I am kinda unable to argue with you, all I can say for now is that I disagree..
In comparison with SMN the difference got higher imo, but in comparison with other DPSes and even melees I believe we are doing better, but discussing that is kinda waste of time, if we cannot provide evidence in our posts. :)

EDIT: My opinion is based on my own experience from HW raiding plus on parses from HC teams like Lucrezia and also other statics from Ragnarok.

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Yeah, taking your post down was silly :c

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

Being mobile was never an aspect of the class to me. What made bard a bard was the actually skills we used(straight shot, bloodletter, venomous bite,windbite etc...), and that wasn't changed at all in HW. In fact, we got some QoL improvements(Iron Jaws) along with some nice new spells. WM doesn't limit us much at all.

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Mobility is an important aspect of the job, between kiting and being able to attack while repositioning. Sometimes telegraphs do aim for you mid-shot and it was nice to be able to continue setting up DoTs or buffs while doing so. Mobility may not be the sole defining aspect of ARC/BRD gameplay, but it is an aspect that lured people to the job. That's not mentioning the use of procs and how the job is designed around off-GCD procs and abilities.

The whole mess smells of shortcuts taken and poor implementation.

PS: Iron Jaws isn't much of a QoL change, especially when you consider that if BRD still had its mobility and instant shots, Iron Jaws wouldn't be needed at all as you'd still be able to fluidly refresh DoTs.

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

Not sure if your post will stay unchanged, because of the numbers, but I think that it shows that the difference is not so high (except SMN), atleast for A1.
If we compared the best people in A1, BRD is doing around 100 less than other jobs (except SMN) and is on par with NIN, which is kinda nice realising that we still have songs.

IMO if we compared % of difference before HW and after HW, I believe we are much closer to melees right now.

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I don't know why your post got deleted, I feel it contributed to the conversation without being antagonistic. My last post was actually originally in reply to yours, as well as pointing out that the Lucrezia parse was from their speed run of RavEx. Very impressive and worth a watch, but I disagreed on its use to show bard's placement. Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmhmbzwASX0

Of the final coil fights, I think T10 was closest to A1S in terms of benefit to bard vs other classes, so I did some math using Havoc's spreadsheet just to get an idea. I took the top 3 of each job and figured bards damage as a percentage of it. Here is what I got:

Monk: T10 91.5%, A1S 93.9%
DRG: T10 96.6%, A1S 91.1%
NIN: T10 98.1%, A1S 99.5%
BLM: T10 99.3%, A1S 89.0%
SMN: T10 112.9%, A1S 82.6%

To me it looks roughly the same, but if you feel it's an increase that's ok too. I think we can at least agree on how awesome SMN is in A1S and A2S.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

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Like I said, being mobile was never a draw for me to Bard. I liked the class because I was an archer, and besides, I never moved that much in fights anyways other then to avoid aoes. Bunny hopping Bards annoyed me. As for the procs, they still happen, and you still use them when you do. You just can't do two in a row anymore. Big Woop. They replaced it with other skills to use.

This was my dream idea for awhile for Bard, so I am happy they want this way. As for Iron Jaws, I still disagree. It is. We should have had this skill in 2.0.