Dragoons: A Rotation Reborn

Merry christmas to all the goons that stuck with the job since day 1!

Dervy we had sooooo much trouble getting a bard on Moogle, i think its just the server having so many unreliable ones, hopefully santa bard will bring ya a good one soon!

Can any maths nerds here tell me whether it is worth building towards a 440-ish skill speed set against the 410 DET or crafted BiS?
I quite like the idea of my starting BFB lasting through the initial CT and 2 Full Thrusts before wearing off; and also BFB being up for 2 Phlebs before dropping off.

However I'm not sure whether building towards a 440SS set is worth the offset in other parameters like DET and Crit especially at low skill speeds where life surge can be used for CT in the 'new' rotation.

I'm strictly thinking in a min/max point of view and want numbers. So if anyone can run a 440SS and relevant rotation (where BFB is used just before first CT) through their DPS solver and compare it to the other BiS sets, that would be great!

Are you talking with selene buff? Because at 440 skillspeed, it's impossible to do that without Selene.

It is very possible to do without Selene buff. You need to delay popping BFB until the GCD for CT is at about the 8 o'clock position then proceed to be diligent and mash away at all your other buttons so not to delay GCD any further. I can achieve this under no lag at about 332SS but under high latency encounters will require about 440ish

Edit: by no lag I mean dummy fights

I guess that could work. The "burst" would be much higher, clearly, but there won't be an overall DPS gain over a long period of time. But what you may end up encountering in the long run, is Blood for Blood not properly aligning up with your GDCs and unable to have buffed Chaos Thrusts. It's risky.

I personally wouldn't do it.

I've been using this rotation for a long time now and it's what I'm used to. But is the burst dps even that much greater than the no SS or crafted BiS? I'm beginning to doubt the effectiveness of this build since this patch as you can drop so much skill speed and gain a sizeable increase in DET and Crit. What I'd like to know is the theoretical dps values of the different sets comparatively when plugged through a solver over a set period of time, e.g. 1min / 3min/ 5min etc.

As for BFB not aligning... You'll find that the 2nd BFB aligns quite well with Phlebotomise - and you apply it the same way you do for the first CT to squeeze out 2x buffed Ph. Generally though, as the way encounters in this game are designed, you'll have to move around as the fight goes on anyways so in the long run, CTs may not necessarily align with BFB depending on the fight regardless of which rotation or set you use.

Anyways, I would be very grateful if anyone could crunch some numbers and show the theoretical dps values compared over set intervals of time. I'm not 100% sure the SS build is worth the offset so if anyone has any data to prove one or the other, that would clear things up a lot.

For the sake of min/maxing.

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Originally Posted by Vampyren

It is very possible to do without Selene buff. You need to delay popping BFB until the GCD for CT is at about the 8 o'clock position then proceed to be diligent and mash away at all your other buttons so not to delay GCD any further. I can achieve this under no lag at about 332SS but under high latency encounters will require about 440ish

Edit: by no lag I mean dummy fights

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assuming you mean 432 skillspeed, since 332 isn't achievable at level 50

the minimum to fit 2 full thrusts/phlebotomizes in bfb duration is 365 skill speed, and that's with a 0.1s~ tight timing and either a clipped gcd or perfectly timed bfb towards the end of gcd. if you always fit in ft or ph it ends up being 1.35 extra pps in your rotation or so, but that doesn't account for any possible sacrifices you'd have to make (stats, clipped gcds, etc)

on content that you can afford having selene, if you have her skillspeed buff going up 50% of the time, having excess skillspeed becomes less valuable because her skillspeed buff is more than enough to achieve the same results (2 ft/ph in one bfb), even at 0 skillspeed.

although it's not stopping me from doing 31det/22crit/22 skillspeed on my zodiac for fun (and because im poor)

as for if the gimmick is actually worth it, it just depends on how much you personally value skill speed as a stat other than for hitting an extra skill in bfb. i think it's worth it at the bare minimum of 365; but 420+ while sacrificing det or more crit than skillspeed probably isnt

I wanted to check if my opening rotation is a good one or if I'm doing anything wrong on it.

HT (IR) > PH > ID (PS) > DS (BfB) > CT (Jump) > TT (DFD) > VT (LS) > FT (SSD) > HT (Potent Posioning Potion) > PH (Leg Sweep) > TTT > CT combo

The reason I put PH up first, is because I haven't seen the DPS increase from using it after CT. Phlebotomize as far as I know, isn't affected by piercing resistances, well the DoT part isn't. So the only thing it gains is from the BfB. But is delaying your PHle for 3 GCDs a dps loss or increase?

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

I wanted to check if my opening rotation is a good one or if I'm doing anything wrong on it.

HT (IR) > PH > ID (PS) > DS (BfB) > CT (Jump) > TT (DFD) > VT (LS) > FT (SSD) > HT (Potent Posioning Potion) > PH (Leg Sweep) > TTT > CT combo

The reason I put PH up first, is because I haven't seen the DPS increase from using it after CT. Phlebotomize as far as I know, isn't affected by piercing resistances, well the DoT part isn't. So the only thing it gains is from the BfB. But is delaying your PHle for 3 GCDs a dps loss or increase?

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The initial hit of 170 potency from Phleb is not affected by piercing debuff?

H IDC P TTT is only a 0.5 PPS increase over what you use. You will not notice the difference in combat at all.

And Daweism, the 170 potency attack is affected by Disembowl. The DoT's aren't however, that's correct.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

I wanted to check if my opening rotation is a good one or if I'm doing anything wrong on it.

HT (IR) > PH > ID (PS) > DS (BfB) > CT (Jump) > TT (DFD) > VT (LS) > FT (SSD) > HT (Potent Posioning Potion) > PH (Leg Sweep) > TTT > CT combo

The reason I put PH up first, is because I haven't seen the DPS increase from using it after CT. Phlebotomize as far as I know, isn't affected by piercing resistances, well the DoT part isn't. So the only thing it gains is from the BfB. But is delaying your PHle for 3 GCDs a dps loss or increase?

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You should have Blood for Blood on your first Phlebotomize no matter whether it goes before or after the first Disembowel. Preferably both Blood for Blood and Internal Release.

By putting Disembowel up earlier, you'll increase the Bard's DPS earlier too, who'll be in the middle of their own opener and would definitely benefit from the 10%.

Quick question, is it worth clipping phlebotomize just before BFB ends?
It usually has 8-9 seconds left on it and I'm wondering if it's best to do that to get the most out of BFB when I can no longer get any more full combos off.

But for a wider perspective, I usually open as such:

HT -> ID,(IR) D, (BFB) CT -> (PS) Ph (Jump) -> TT, VT, (LS) FT -> HT (SD) -> PH (DD)
And then BFB usually wears off by then, any advise would be great :)

DRG has one of the best bursts at the start of a fight now it seems to me from what I keep pulling off with mine.

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Originally Posted by Leoheart

Quick question, is it worth clipping phlebotomize just before BFB ends?
It usually has 8-9 seconds left on it and I'm wondering if it's best to do that to get the most out of BFB when I can no longer get any more full combos off.

But for a wider perspective, I usually open as such:

HT -> ID,(IR) D, (BFB) CT -> (PS) Ph (Jump) -> TT, VT, (LS) FT -> HT (SD) -> PH (DD)
And then BFB usually wears off by then, any advise would be great :)

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Nope. PPS will be higher just doing the rotation normally. If Phlebotomizes base hit was similar to that of Disembowl, then yes, that would be acceptable to do so.

9 GDCS in the next line of the rotation
9*2.5 = 22.5/3 = 7.5 ticks


HT + ID + DIS + CT + PH + TT + VP + FT + HT =
170 + 180 + 220 + 250 + 170 + 150 + 200 + 360 + 170 = 1890*1.1 = 2079 + (35*7) + (30*7) = 2534

You'd end up missing a tick of CT and DI due to you applying PH again

HT + PH + ID + DIS + CT + PH + TT + VP + FT =
170 + 170 + 180 + 250 + 170 + 150 + 220 + 360 = 1670*1.1 = 1837 + 220 = 2057 + (35*6) + (30*3*1.3) + (30*4) = 2504

Actually, I just noticed I messed up the order of the skills, but the potency will be the same even if I rearrange them.

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

You should have Blood for Blood on your first Phlebotomize no matter whether it goes before or after the first Disembowel. Preferably both Blood for Blood and Internal Release.

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Originally Posted by Mibhas

By putting Disembowel up earlier, you'll increase the Bard's DPS earlier too, who'll be in the middle of their own opener and would definitely benefit from the 10%.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

H IDC P TTT is only a 0.5 PPS increase over what you use. You will not notice the difference in combat at all.

And Daweism, the 170 potency attack is affected by Disembowl. The DoT's aren't however, that's correct.

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Thanks for all your answers, though the tiny boost in my own DPS wouldn't bother me, seeing a bigger increase on the BRDs DPS seems a much bigger advantage.

Thank you for your answers!

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Originally Posted by Aiurily

the minimum to fit 2 full thrusts/phlebotomizes in bfb duration is 365 skill speed, and that's with a 0.1s~ tight timing and either a clipped gcd or perfectly timed bfb towards the end of gcd. if you always fit in ft or ph it ends up being 1.35 extra pps in your rotation or so, but that doesn't account for any possible sacrifices you'd have to make (stats, clipped gcds, etc)

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This is sort of what I was looking for. 1.35 PPS increase is still an increase, but I suppose whether this is worth the stat tradeoff depends on how much skill speed you stack to achieve the 2 FT / Ph.

Upon further testing, it seems I am able to hit the cutoff point at around 381SS (2.46sec GCD) but was unable to achieve this at 370SS (2.47sec GCD) no matter how hard I spam those buttons. Are you able to achieve it with consistency at 365SS?

Even so, it's reassuring to know that I don't need as high of a skill speed value as I originally thought to stick with this rotation.

yep. i can't achieve it at 364 (2.48) at all, but at 365 (2.47) i can do it

it's pretty consistent, but the timing is still almost unreasonably tight, if not for the gcd queue system. you absolutely can not have any delay between bfb and your next gcd; as soon as bfb animation lock ends, if you don't execute your weaponskill within within 0.033s or so, you probably won't connect it. if you miss that much in between any of your gcds within bfb, you'll probably miss it. you can still fit in all of your jumps, double buff in between gcds and x-pot just fine, though.

beyond that, i guess high ping can play a factor. i have 55ms or so pinging my server, 80ms~ through resource monitor

Hmm, yeah latency might be why. I'm all the way across the pond :(
But still, 2.46sec GCD is a more than reasonable tradeoff for 1.35PPS increase imo. And yeah fitting in jumps in between GCD isn't the issue here, as I can't manage to do the rotation with or without them at 2.47sec GCD.

So I think thI'd was answered earlier, but I wanna clarify. Use Life Surge on Chaos Thrust after certain points in the rotation at low skill speed? Here's how it normally goes for me:

HT->B4B->ID->IR->Dis->Leg->PS->CT->Jump->Phleb->DfD->TT->SSD->VT->LS-FT
Then repeat the combo through all 3 sets. The next time B4B and LS are up is on the 5th set (heavy thrust falling off I consider it ending a set) starting with TT combo. After this LS comes up more frequently than B4B does, so using it on CT will be a DPS increase and re-align B4B+LS? I've still been holding it at 341 SS, and it feels like a loss at that point. But I'm wondering if using it on CT is better or using it on unbuffed FT is better? Just curious as to what others have found out. Rotation is different at this lower skill speed haha.

curious what other drgs are parsing as baseline now

over 3m 10s with i125 wep im doing around 540 without party/consumables/food/mercy stroke (lol). seems ok (i117)

i110, i110 weapon. I'm doing 485 DPS over 3 minutes (barely) no food, no party, no pots, no mercy stroke.

I do around 505-515 (RNjesus) fully buffed no mercy stroke on a dummy over 3 minutes. The other melee I'll be raiding with has an i119 Dragoon with i125 weap, parses 565 fully buffed over 3 minutes. I don't think he used Mercy Stroke either.

i got 595 ilvl121 party buff no mercy stroke,no food,no pots, i130 wep and 4min parse

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Originally Posted by ish007xx

i got 595 ilvl121 party buff no mercy stroke,no food,no pots, i130 wep and 4min parse

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That would be an incredibly crit heavy run and in no way your average at that gear level.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

That would be an incredibly crit heavy run and in no way your average at that gear level.

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Average simulated DPS of an i135 DRG with Food/Party Buffs is 590. Yeh, he was having an extremely lucky run with those crits, but he's not too far off what Dragoons can actually achieve in "perfect" conditions.

I'm i113 with an i110 weapon, and with party bonus and no food/pots/Mercy Stroke I was parsing 480 in T8 earlier today. Haven't tried parsing myself on a dummy yet.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

I'm i113 with an i110 weapon, and with party bonus and no food/pots/Mercy Stroke I was parsing 480 in T8 earlier today. Haven't tried parsing myself on a dummy yet.

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Sounds about right. My i111 DRG with i115 weapon was doing around 477 avg. It's been a while though, and I've recently picked up crafted belt and head, no melds yet. I'll have to give it another run soon using H IDC P vs H P IDC.

Good to know I'm still in the ballpark lol.. I got a new toy over the weekend and ran through all my geared jobs.. Best for me DRG ~480. I need a lil help on monk (460) and probably will hang up the ninja blades (380, I hate mudra lag lol). All 110 weaps.

I saw the maiming helmet drop to the ground on my alt who already have that

meanwhile still nothing on my main `-`

least I'm 2 items away from i130 monk

I have given up on drg loot

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Originally Posted by rickyguo

I saw the maiming helmet drop to the ground on my alt who already have that

meanwhile still nothing on my main `-`

least I'm 2 items away from i130 monk

I have given up on drg loot

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Horrible loot system Square Enix. Looking forward to token system in 3.0

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Originally Posted by rickyguo

I have given up on drg loot

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I've given up on T11 loot. Never seen chest, or head.

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Originally Posted by HulveinBlitz

I've given up on T11 loot. Never seen chest, or head.

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Took me... I would honestly say 50+ T9 kills to get the Spear, got it a few days ago lol... And the boots from T7 got it last month, after I was clearing it for 6 months on a weekly lock out............................................................................... >_> <_< t('.'t)

Funny to see useless loot, t12 earring again and bracelet which is useless and t13 drg pants again useless once again, on the bright side I used the bracelet for one fight only replaced it with augmented one.

I also have never seen any drg stuff from t11

Just because it's not BiS, doesn't mean it may not be an improvement in relation to all of the equipment you have. Always keep/need everything and constantly run gear solvers each time you acquire a new piece of gear.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

Just because it's not BiS, doesn't mean it may not be an improvement in relation to all of the equipment you have. Always keep/need everything and constantly run gear solvers each time you acquire a new piece of gear.

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I had them already, so it was just frustrating to see them again, I never said they wouldn't be an upgrade. Well I shouldn't be complaining, because even if I see them for 2nd or 3rd time, before last week I hadn't seen any loot since first week.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

That would be an incredibly crit heavy run and in no way your average at that gear level.

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yeah crit rate was 30% lol it was high, but yeah even without them crits, with i121 shouldn't be that far behind

T10 Kill #10: Monk belt #3, Healer boots #5 (no gloves or neck yet)
T11 Kill #9: Caster Chest #2, Caster Belt #2 (Both went to alts)
T12 Kill #3: Tank Helm, Caster Gloves or something I don't even care anymore.

The DW Mail of Maiming dropped in t11 last night. I accidentally left before acquiring it ;___; good thing someone in my static rolled on it and didn't let it fall to the ground.

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Originally Posted by Aeromat

The DW Mail of Maiming dropped in t11 last night. I accidentally left before acquiring it ;___; good thing someone in my static rolled on it and didn't let it fall to the ground.

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Mein got! Tragic loss my friend. Our SMN accidentally passed on the Twine so it went to MT who was the only one who hadn't passed. Set my i130 weapon back til next week.

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Originally Posted by Aeromat

The DW Mail of Maiming dropped in t11 last night. I accidentally left before acquiring it ;___; good thing someone in my static rolled on it and didn't let it fall to the ground.

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Originally Posted by Daweism

Mein got! Tragic loss my friend. Our SMN accidentally passed on the Twine so it went to MT who was the only one who hadn't passed. Set my i130 weapon back til next week.

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Hope you guys learned from these and now wait for loot to fall before running off to the next turn :P I know my group learned this hard in Second Coils xD