If you are a WHM without Swiftcast, you are holding back your team at endgame

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Originally Posted by Axidrain

main reason is because he hasnt been doing any of the end game raids or trials yet. and no relic either so i guess he hasnt done titan hm too. :3

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Eh not that I'm progressed at all in this game, but this is honestly an attitude you see at end game very often. The same way you get tanks who are control freaks or DPS hitting the bong between pulls you see this general need to be handled with kid gloves by healers. They tend to develop victim complexes and quickly get super defensive. That's why this thread is pretty funny, it's sort of an expression of that each of these healers have the skill but are arguing it's technically not required, it's just that every healer chooses to use it and it's the standard but it's still not required, please stop bullying healers.

It's the same kind of responses you'd see in a "as DPS if you tunnel vision and die on fights you're holding your team back", it's an inarguable statement but people still will come around to defend their class, like they're honorbound.

EDIT: I will say healers get a lot of undeserved blame thrown at them, but some of the mental gymnastics put on display in this thread (or any thread critical of any role) really have brought for a lot of the worst out

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"Wipe it up the healer's ego won't let them res!"

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Healers don't have egos. We're just healbots during the day and at night...

T_T

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Originally Posted by Worm

"Not my job", the perfect creed for cooperative play. Also what happens if a tank gets blown up through relatively nobodies fault? "Wipe it up the healer's ego won't let them res!"


I'd really be interested to ask you what you view as "required" cross class skills. Mainly to see you freak out more that people just won't let you have your way in this argument, but also because I'm curious.

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if someone dies its either because they failed at avoiding avoidable dmg or the healer failed at keeping them/themselves alive thru unavoidable dmg - there is no other reason to die (barring computer/ISP/game failure of course)

ppl in this thread want to replace the players who fail at covering others failures instead of replacing those that fail to begin with...it just seems an odd stance imo and one i have NEVER come across in any MMO i have played...

as i said before i have NEVER been told that i would be replaced in any group i have been in for failing to cover for others failures...

im truly wondering at this point if everyone that has this odd stance in this thread are not just trolling?

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Originally Posted by Worm

Eh not that I'm progressed at all in this game, but this is honestly an attitude you see at end game very often. The same way you get tanks who are control freaks or...

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instacast any skill. its a no brainer. theres no point not having it.

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Originally Posted by Shizato

if someone dies its either because they failed at avoiding avoidable dmg or the healer failed at keeping them/themselves alive thru unavoidable dmg - there is no other reason to die (barring computer/ISP/game failure of course)

ppl in this thread want to replace the players who fail at covering others failures instead of replacing those that fail to begin with...it just seems an odd stance imo and one i have NEVER come across in any MMO i have played...

as i said before i have NEVER been told that i would be replaced in any group i have been in for failing to cover for others failures...

im truly wondering at this point if everyone that has this odd stance in this thread are not just trolling?

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No one is talking about replacing you, but if you could have put out a res and stopped a wipe it's preferable than punishing the whole raid for one guy's mistake. If I had some guy start ranting out how it's not his job to battle res and the DPS should accept their mistakes and etc, etc, etc I'd boot him from the raid. It's just a hollow point.

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Originally Posted by Axidrain

instacast any skill. its a no brainer. theres no point not having it.

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Right they all have it, it's just a pointless argument to defend a healers in general. It's not really "mandatory" like being at the keyboard.

blew my post limit like an idiot but I need the last word so

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Originally Posted by Shizato

and if i had some guy ranting about how its the healers fault we wiped for not covering for the DPS's failure, etc Id boot him from the raid - its just an incorrect point

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Yeah if a DPS messes up and a DPS check isn't met, it's the healers fault for not bringing them up. You understand fault can be assigned to more than one party, right? It's like a tank not taunting and saying "hey you pulled aggro you tank it", it's completely against the point of cooperation it's looking out for yourself and trying to make a bigger deal out of someone else's mistakes, it's the smallest thing you can do in these games and I'm glad you have people to play with who tolerate it, congratulations.

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Originally Posted by Worm

No one is talking about replacing you, but if you could have put out a res and stopped a wipe it's preferable than punishing the whole raid for one guy's mistake. If I had some guy start ranting out how it's not his job to battle res and the DPS should accept their mistakes and etc, etc, etc I'd boot him from the raid. It's just a hollow point.

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and if i had some guy ranting about how its the healers fault we wiped for not covering for the DPS's failure, etc Id boot him from the raid - its just an incorrect point

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Originally Posted by Amyas

So you'd possibly cause a wipe because you're too good to raise someone?

Just go play a single player game already. This thread is just like the 'healers should dps' thread, so many baddies coming on here using some crazy mental gymnastics and elitism to justify being bad. Crazy.

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I don't actually agree with Ti-Dus's blanket 'I refuse to swiftly raise ppl who refuse to learn how to dodge' declaration. However. One of my main alts is a WHM (the other's a Bard), and I was in an 8-man a few days ago (forget which one) and the Summoner just kept dying over and over, after needing more heals than my tank, and at some point I had to make a decision. Do I keep healing and raising him and go flat-line on MP and risk wiping the group or easily finish the fight one dps down?

(Went with the latter.)

EDIT: But back to Ti-Dus's original comment, the 'swift' part I can perhaps understand. It is such a powerful and cornerstone skill to WHM healing that I can understand the desire to save it for a more crucial use.

I think its covered already swiftcast is a nice spell to have, however by any means its not mandatory. If it is, well sorry but its my humble opinion that there's a problem, and some people are playing poorly, nothing elitist here, i feel the game isnt hard it just requires some practice. If you are making repeated mistakes and blaming healer o rother factors that is a pretty unsportmanship attitude and i would not want to play with someone like that. Like a kid failing in his exams blaming external factors, like teacher, and not taking sole responsibility. Whereas another student would do poorly, is willing to learn from mistakes and will go back home and reassess the areas he went wrong in the test and try improve on that. Sadly a lot of people will play the blame game and will probably never improve, which i suspect why many are crying about here, and are like cancer and spread to forums, everywhere cause they are really bitter, maybe even dont have statics and must rely on pugs that are are 'ruining the game' for them.

Usually i would restrain however players should not be bullied like this from toxic players. A guy just got his game for christmas is enjoying doing dungeons only to get told he is playing wrong, and now must level a class/role he has no desire to play, he may die repeatedly trying to level and just give up, just because some players didn't pull their weight in the dungeon.

At the end I have no quarrel with attitude like "i suggest you get that spell" that is reasonable you at least sharing advise, and not trying to bully/force them into getting it, at least he can reply "thanks but ill stick to what i have atm". The run can remain to be fun and mature.

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Originally Posted by wildgalax

I think its covered already swiftcast is a nice spell to have, however by any means its not mandatory. If it is, well sorry but its my humble opinion that there's a problem, and some people are playing poorly, nothing elitist here, i feel the game isnt hard it just requires some practice. If you are making repeated mistakes and blaming healer o rother factors that is a pretty unsportmanship attitude and i would not want to play with someone like that. Like a kid failing in his exams blaming external factors, like teacher, and not taking sole responsibility. Whereas another student would do poorly, is willing to learn from mistakes and will go back home and reassess the areas he went wrong in the test and try improve on that. Sadly a lot of people will play the blame game and will probably never improve, which i suspect why many are crying about here, and are like cancer and spread to forums, everywhere cause they are really bitter, maybe even dont have statics and must rely on pugs that are are 'ruining the game' for them.

Usually i would restrain however players should not be bullied like this from toxic players. A guy just got his game for christmas is enjoying doing dungeons only to get told he is playing wrong, and now must level a class/role he has no desire to play, he may die repeatedly trying to level and just give up, just because some players didn't pull their weight in the dungeon.

At the end I have no quarrel with attitude like "i suggest you get that spell" that is reasonable you at least sharing advise, and not trying to bully/force them into getting it, at least he can reply "thanks but ill stick to what i have atm". The run can remain to be fun and mature.

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Right, and I suggest you also get your relic weapon after defeating Titan HM.

It's funny when mages leave DPS on the ground and the fight is failed due to a DPS check. Ultima is a good example from the other day where I got mashed by someone dragging eruptions around randomly. The healer(s) left me on the ground for a minute or more (no swiftcast quite obviously) and we failed to kill him in time.

It's a really good example of where swiftcast would have proved the difference, and gotten us the win.

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the game isnt hard

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That's exactly why you should have swiftcast, it's not hard to get.

Playing with pugs = not mandatory

Playing in good fc/ls = probably mandatory

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Playing with pugs = not mandatory

Playing in good fc/ls = probably mandatory

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Maintaining your dignity when the shit hits the fan = priceless.

I'm not a fan of this idea. But as a WHM I think I have to agree with OP. While swiftcast is not needed. It's just too useful imo to ignore.

I don't like blame. In PvE, if we wipe, we all fail. We're all to blame. If swiftcast insures my ability to make sure that happens less, I want it on my bar.

I strongly suggest swiftcast for all casters who can access it. But crying because you don't get a res after standing in stupid is simply as much the fault of the person doing it as the healer being unable to swiftcast/raise.

Swift cast is a tool, and a very useful one just like so many others, so I'm not against having it and using it. But to call it the deciding factor between winning or losing implies things are so bad in the party that your WHM needs to be insta-casting way more often than he/she should be. <_<;

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Originally Posted by Raydeus

Swift cast is a tool, and a very useful one just like so many others, so I'm not against having it and using it. But to call it the deciding factor between winning or losing implies things are so bad in the party that your WHM needs to be insta-casting way more often than he/she should be. <_<;

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No one's calling it a deciding factor really, but it for sure can save the day. Has for me a handful of times in my 300+ dungeon runs. And as other said, if you have it and don't need it for raise you can always use it to sc dots, holy, heal, stoneskin etc to make the run that much better and show off the work you put into your job.

In end game content like BcoB, Primal Ex, etc. Swiftcast is near a requirement... seriously.

I think even SE mentioned that at high end game, it helps a lota lot if you have the proper cross cast skills for all your main classes.

In fact, as a WHM, there are 2 still you require really, that makes a lot of difference at the higher endgame.

Swiftcast --> THM
Eye for an Eye --> ACN
Surecast --> THM (optional, for when you really need to cast the next spell)
Virus --> ACN (optional, mainly used on boss adds)

For hardcore serious end gaming parties, lack of these skills will raise questions from other party mates.

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Originally Posted by Slambo

If I'm casting raise YOU are doing it wrong. you show me a fight with a guaranteed 1 shot to someone (every time) and I'll agree with you though.

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Going into a fight and expecting absolute perfection while not preparing yourself for human error is YOUR fault. Expecting everyone to always make 0 mistakes is just ridiculous and an excuse for people being too lazy to get swiftcast.

I have already posted my opinion but since the thread is going as far as saying WAR do not need provoke, allow me to add a comment.

Ignoring cross class ability as important as provoke and swift cast is the making of a very bad player that I would happily add to my black list. Many of you think swift cast is needed for raise, wrong that is a very narrow view. End game require you to be adaptive, ignoring important tools cause you are too lazy to get them limit your job abilities.

I rather have my fiancé cat plays ilvl55 drg in turn 5 than take a whm or war without their cross class abilities. It is like a BLM saying I don't need quilling strike, cause tank need to get gud and tank disposal node while I go crazy on it.

War no need provoke? Then I guess that War is not needed in Garuda Ex. :D

Just another way to see it.

If I know a healer does not have swiftcast then I'm not taking them into anything remotely serious. No extreme primals, not coil, not even titan hm. Why? Not because the skill is mandatory. Don't get me wrong the skill is amazing, but that's not the reason why. What it demonstrates is a lack of desire to support a party to the best of your abilities. Why would a party want players with that kind of attitude? This doesn't apply just to healers, it applies to all classes and roles.

If you don't have all your cross-class abilities, you're doing it wrong.

Mostly because the bulk of desirable cross-class abilities are the last ones available from each class.

I love it so much!

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Originally Posted by wildgalax

Usually i would restrain however players should not be bullied like this from toxic players. A guy just got his game for christmas is enjoying doing dungeons only to get told he is playing wrong, and now must level a class/role he has no desire to play, he may die repeatedly trying to level and just give up, just because some players didn't pull their weight in the dungeon.

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It's precious how hyperbolic you're being, why not make this hypothetical player end his life just to show us how 'toxic' we're really being? No one is saying "You better have Swiftcast for Copperbell" we're talking about end game. Implying that we're out there in the low level roulette ruining some child's Christmas because we disagreed with you on a forum is just plain slimy. It's also hilarious to see you pick up the word "bullying" when I was using it to mock the persecution complex most healers have. I think that's probably what makes most healers such pills, a huge lack of self awareness.

You're so willfully ignorant that I can't tell if it's a disability or a super power. The whole attitude you copped about people dying in fire was way more toxic in tone than the OP post or the majority of posts we made. You so desperately skill shamed to try to win this argument, you just had to have your way and here you are again with a new angle desperate to come out the winner by taking every mental handstand and somersault from the breadth of the thread to twist your original opinion of "Only losers take preventable damage" into something that sounds reasonable.

It's just ridiculous, you're the one hung up on this, you're the one who is being elitist, and you're the one who is wrong. The idea that "Hey, Swiftcast is basically mandatory." is a more toxic and elitist statement than "If you die to avoidable damage you can stay on the ground and maybe you'll learn to avoid it next time." honestly blows me away. I'll never understand how MMO forum users can reach this supernatural level of being full of crap. I really wonder how many new players are turned off when they have to see to the lecture you have macro'd into your Swiftcast res.

why does this thread have 43 pages? what is there to discuss? if you are running end game, you should have every skill your job can equip. no questions asked, end of story.

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Originally Posted by Hanabira

why does this thread have 43 pages? what is there to discuss? if you are running end game, you should have every skill your job can equip. no questions asked, end of story.

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Maybe because some people have full time jobs and have a limited time to play, so if they get up to level 50 and can start endgame stuff, then they should be able to since they've, no doubt, spent much more time than others have to even get to 50?

I don't understand why this is a hard concept for some people. Some people simply haven't gotten around to getting their cross class skills not due to laziness, but real life. And if swiftcast really was mandatory, the creators would have given WHMs either the same spell or something else to compensate.

I mean, let's be real, I think a lot of WHM will get swiftcast because it is handy. But if they haven't had the time to get it yet, then don't call them lazy. Maybe they wanted to get through all the story stuff first and they'll do post-content stuff after, which includes getting the other cross-class skills? I know that's what I'm doing.

My time is limited, I'm not going to spend any more time than I have trying to finish the main story just because people are whining that I don't have swiftcast.

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/6...romancy0z1.jpg

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Originally Posted by Mykll

And my Warrior does not have Flash slotted and does just fine.

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http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instanc...x/43933249.jpg

Thread is only 11 pages.

Because, like everything on the Internet, my preferred method of reading these forums is right and every other method is wrong.

Hmm, sounds an awful like this argument about how someone prefers to play their healer.

And my Warrior does not have Flash slotted and does just fine.

Just be glad a healer and tank is willing to be there at all.

Nice necropost. How can we miss this thread if it won't go away?