FF14 is not made for hardcore players.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

Those groups are struggling to get respect from FFXIV players, so I doubt they're going to gain any serious influence here. Limit faking their blind prog kind of soured a lot of people.

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rightfully so, I don't even follow raiding but that whole thing was such a joke

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

While this community (the forum community) is usually quick to dismiss people as trolls, this guy for some reason has been entertained throughout all the controversy they stir.

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easily explained; everyone wants to get their dunk on them in, hence their threads getting endlessly bumped

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

It should be pointed out that the OP is the type to start controversial threads consistently. From calling the community toxic, to poc and lgbt representation, to requiring trigger warnings.

While this community (the forum community) is usually quick to dismiss people as trolls, this guy for some reason has been entertained throughout all the controversy they stir.

Nothing will make this individual satisfied. You’ll never check enough boxes. But the bait will keep coming

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OP is General Discussion's very own primal lol.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

OP is General Discussion's very own primal lol.

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Lol that’s a great take on it. =]

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Originally Posted by Izar_Chillen

I would imagine that the pacing the game has, is because if it had as fast paced gcd's and damage done/received as other mmo's usually have, a good majority of control pad users would struggle to switch hot bars to rotate dps/tanking/heals abilities with their physical pad button combos they need to do , as well as dodge mechs.


If this was a PC only mmo with KYBD+ mouse only in mind , I would expect it to be a faster paced game

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Really?
48 skills on controller with either left trigger, right trigger, left trigger -> right trigger, right trigger ->left trigger, double tap left trigger or double tap right trigger, all while moving.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

It should be pointed out that the OP is the type to start controversial threads consistently. From calling the community toxic, to poc and lgbt representation, to requiring trigger warnings.

While this community (the forum community) is usually quick to dismiss people as trolls, this guy for some reason has been entertained throughout all the controversy they stir.

Nothing will make this individual satisfied. You’ll never check enough boxes. But the bait will keep coming

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I haven't even been active lately, y'all are just baiting yourselves lol

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Originally Posted by Skiros

I haven't even been active lately, y'all are just baiting yourselves lol

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YOU are militaryvet123 or just wanting attention?

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

YOU are militaryvet123 or just wanting attention?

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What do you think

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Originally Posted by Skiros

I haven't even been active lately, y'all are just baiting yourselves lol

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Either you misunderstood what you are replying to, or you just ousted yourself...

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Originally Posted by Ativan

What do you think

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Im thinking someone slipped up

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

Either you misunderstood what you are replying to, or you just ousted yourself...

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I never really tried to hide

This game have never been hard/core.
Everything it's accessible by minimum effort and long weeks of repetitive easy content.

PVP have no rewards and people haven't care about it in a decade, meaning there is no competition anywhere.

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Originally Posted by Kukra

Elitism is one of the reasons why WoW is dying and FFXIV is now the king. We can go back to WoW and get Mplus keys over level 15 deal with the toxic gatekeepers that check for a 2000 Raider.IO rating and rage quit the second we wipe.

I seen to many "hardcore" players cry when anything goes wrong and just bash on others. That is not giving advice, that is just raging. If you like the challenge sooo much, the so call "bad" players can make your duties harder, right? Thats sounds good to me.

I played WoW for like 12 years and I did mostly normal/heroic and I only "got gud" after wiping to the bosses over and over till I learned what the bosses do. I wont blow CDS before like phase 2 when the bosses just talk and more. Asking random people to do the same 99% parse after the elites did the same bosses 300 times is just silly.

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Not true actually, WoW is dying because of piss poor development, has nothing to do with the player base. It is illogical to to think that WoW is dying because of player elitism if you played the game for 12 years. I highly doubt you played WoW that long other wise you would know the game has been failing for some time due to poor design, poorly implemented systems, rng loot, long patch cycles, and lack of content.

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Originally Posted by Izanagi_Fiaresu

Here's the thing with guilds like Limit, Echo, Method etc coming over from WoW? I can see the game skewing to a more meta end game focused community. People copying them, and being better players than they think they are. That's my worry

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I don't see anything wrong with adding an end game focused meta. In all honesty after the MSQ this game really lacks content to do.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

This is definitely something to be concerned about. I don't want to see FFXIV turned into WoW II with all this end game competitiveness. Thankfully Yoshi P already said that they would never endorse something like a race to world first unless they evened the playing field by actually enforcing their existing TOS and preventing addons.

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You don't need end game meta for addons to become popular. You need bad players that want to be hand held through content. This already exists in FF.

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Originally Posted by AnnRam

This game have never been hard/core.
Everything it's accessible by minimum effort and long weeks of repetitive easy content.

PVP have no rewards and people haven't care about it in a decade, meaning there is no competition anywhere.

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I feel like this is a problem. Repetitive content, no rewards from pvp. That's not something I would consider fun.

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Originally Posted by AnnRam

This game have never been hard/core.
Everything it's accessible by minimum effort and long weeks of repetitive easy content.

PVP have no rewards and people haven't care about it in a decade, meaning there is no competition anywhere.

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When dungeons start containing Savage level mechanics and end in wipes... yes it is becoming more and more hardcore and frustrating for the disabled. They are sacrificing accessibility to sate the unquenchable appetite of the elitist and toxic group of players.

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Originally Posted by Ativan

When dungeons start containing Savage level mechanics and end in wipes... yes it is becoming more and more hardcore and frustrating for the disabled. They are sacrificing accessibility to sate the unquenchable appetite of the elitist and toxic group of players.

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And maybe the game should cater more to the majority than the minority? by trying to satisfy every single small group of people ever you will just end up making everyone unsatisfied. It's not even about the ''unquenchable appetite of the elitist'' I'm a casual player since ARR. Never went in a current patch Raid out of normal difficulty and I find it horrible how the skill ceiling and floor keep getting lower and lower as time goes. We're at a point where half your team could go AFK in a dungeon and it wouldn't even be an issue. Players just need to accept they can fail and improve. This is what makes the game fun.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

Not true actually, WoW is dying because of piss poor development, has nothing to do with the player base. It is illogical to to think that WoW is dying because of player elitism if you played the game for 12 years. I highly doubt you played WoW that long other wise you would know the game has been failing for some time due to poor design, poorly implemented systems, rng loot, long patch cycles, and lack of content.



I don't see anything wrong with adding an end game focused meta. In all honesty after the MSQ this game really lacks content to do.



You don't need end game meta for addons to become popular. You need bad players that want to be hand held through content. This already exists in FF.



I feel like this is a problem. Repetitive content, no rewards from pvp. That's not something I would consider fun.

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Every time you post I feel my braincells die a little.

But let's get to it shall we? let's divulge why you are once again, completely and utterly wrong.

1. WoW isn't dying from poor development, Ion Hazzikozas catered the game entirely toward Hardcore players, so the casual player base that liked to PVP, occasionally raid, dungeon farm all that kind of stuff? They were driven out because the game development is entirely for a very small niche part of the player base and no one else. The Game is dying because of hardcore mentality, add the Numerous scandals and it's just basically a poison chalice nobody wants anything to do with.

2. Games lacks content? Spoken like the true, repeatable content, older, still relevant Ultimates and Eureka/Bozja and a plethora of other things aren't content type.

The game has Plenty of content, you either cannibalized it and did it all or you're lying and did only stuff you find "Relevant this minute", I also highly doubt you've cleared DSW yet so, keep workin on that instead of trying to kid people that have played the game for years that it "lacks content"

3. Yes there are "bad" players, bad players can improve with patience, guidance and knowledge sharing, By your own measuring stick, you are also Bad because you haven't cleared DSW yet so you're in no position to call others bad. Know what can't be fixed? Bad attitudes. As for Add Ons, colour-blindness is a very real thing as is partial sightedness, those players are every bit as entitled to clear content as you are provided they can get up to the required skill/knowledge level to do it and a failure by SE to address it (which they said they will in future) should not be a reason to rally against those players...now mods like Cactbot, fair, that thing should just not exist.

4. So PvP isn't for you, it is for others. Some people absolutely love to do PvP and funnily enough, at one point in time the PvP playerbase of the game you mentioned before, WoW, outnumbered the Endgame raiding playerbase by quite a healthy margin. It's not the case here, but to say "It isn't content" is again, a fallacy.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Every time you post I feel my braincells die a little.

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Glad to know you are a fan of my posts.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

Not true actually, WoW is dying because of piss poor development, has nothing to do with the player base. It is illogical to to think that WoW is dying because of player elitism if you played the game for 12 years. I highly doubt you played WoW that long other wise you would know the game has been failing for some time due to poor design, poorly implemented systems, rng loot, long patch cycles, and lack of content.

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Yep. Anyone who actually knows what they're talking about realizes that the problem hasn't been player elitism. It's...basically everything else, most of which have nothing to do with the players themselves at all.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Yep. Anyone who actually knows what they're talking about realizes that the problem hasn't been player elitism. It's...basically everything else, most of which have nothing to do with the players themselves at all.

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Game became like a full time job in Legion and continued on that same path.

You didn't grind your arbitrary "special content" every single day? You don't get to raid

Picked the unfavoured class as your main class? Tough luck, it's too late to switch and catch up now unless you can play 8 hours a day every day. To such a degree Mr Hazzikozas straight said to every Warlock players face "Maybe play another class"

Add in that they went out of their way to outright kill off all enjoyment and reward from PvP, made lower scale content completely unrewarding and high end content gated behind the insane grinds, you could see who they were making the game for and who they were not.

WoW already lost most of its player base before the scandals and shadowlands came out, many hopped off at WoD/Legion or through BFA

They killed the game themselves by catering it entirely to the smallest section of the player base, why?

Because Ion Hazzikokzas is that type of player, people forget he was also a player himself, so he can only think in the dimension of "What would I enjoy" and that has shown time and time again.

This is where he differs from Yoshidas philosophy, where Yoshida develops the game with other players' mindsets in mind, not just his own.

To Add: While You're probably thinking "WoW always kind of had that"

In a way, yes you did always have to do a series of challenging and sometimes grindy content in order to unlock raids, Black Temple Attunement being one I particularly remember as having us jump through a series of hoops.

The difference was? Once you got it? Done, you never had to do it again. Even AQ as annoying and dull as the world event was, once it was done, that was it, no more grind. Modern WoW threw the philosophy of hard entry away which, quite a lot actually enjoyed as it felt rewarding, to add the stupid forever grind with easier entry to a much dumbed down version of the raid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

This is where he differs from Yoshidas philosophy, where Yoshida develops the game with other players' mindsets in mind, not just his own.

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Meanwhile housing, where the only reason we don’t have instanced housing is because yoshi p doesnt like it, even though it would be objectively better for everyone. Or job design with things like healers. Yeah i’m not seeing a different philosophy here chief.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Meanwhile housing, where the only reason we don’t have instanced housing is because yoshi p doesnt like it, even though it would be objectively better for everyone. Or job design with things like healers. Yeah i’m not seeing a different philosophy here chief.

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Nah, that's actually not it chief.

It's because SE are being cheap and won't fund the extra server space it would take to house cluster instancing. So that's Money > Philosophy.

Something I vehemently disagree with.

Also you're comparing housing, an optional vanity system with and I'll type this out in bold so it sinks in

The entire games play system design of which is Not Optional

That's like comparing WoD Bases to the Daily Roulette system.

One is entirely optional (these days) the other you do every day.

I sell rotting flesh.

*Smell

I smell rotting flesh.

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Originally Posted by Edax

https://i.imgur.com/ewQk9eZ.jpg

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so where is the bait?

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

The entire games play system design of which is Not Optional

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Technically, you didn't have you purchase it. That was your option and you chose wrong.

Family friendly. Almost had me until then.

It's one thing to rip on people for being slow/incompetent at high end content that is designed to be difficult. It's another thing to rip on someone for being slow/incompetent in a normal 4 man MSQ dungeon, or hell even normal raids. Not everyone wants to go at 100% speed, some can't actually. And in my experience it invariably drags out the dungeon when someone gets angry and starts throwing a fit because someone else wasn't doing things the "correct" way. Just be patient and give them time and space to learn. Coach them when you can. Just stop being an asshole. Nobody wants to listen to you tell a sprout why they're garbage at the game. Or tell them to just "git gud" without any constructive criticism in the same breath. You're wasting everyone's time as much as the sprout and you're alienating them from the community on top of it. You will survive if a dungeon takes 5 minutes longer than normal. Or even 10. You don't even have to coach them, just let them have the space to learn and try again. You were a noob once too, would you want some random person heckling you over being bad at a game you haven't even been playing for a week?

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Originally Posted by KikiTia

You were a noob once too, would you want some random person heckling you over being bad at a game you haven't even been playing for a week?

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when i think about popping off at someone for being "bad" i remember back to when i first started playing. my first run of castrum meridianum. no idea whats going on, still more or less learning my role, leaving cutscenes and people already being halfway to the end of the wall, and some loser tells me i'm holding the team back. i'll never forget that. the most inconsequential content, and i'm still somehow wasting someone's time. that was 4 years ago. i don't have the energy to get mad. i just tell people how mechanics work, and if they keep messing them up, i drag them across the finish line despite their kicking and screaming

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Nah, that's actually not it chief.

It's because SE are being cheap and won't fund the extra server space it would take to house cluster instancing. So that's Money > Philosophy.

Something I vehemently disagree with.

Also you're comparing housing, an optional vanity system with and I'll type this out in bold so it sinks in

The entire games play system design of which is Not Optional

That's like comparing WoD Bases to the Daily Roulette system.

One is entirely optional (these days) the other you do every day.

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You can disagree with it, it doesn’t make it not true. He’s gone on record saying he didn’t implement instanced housing because he wants a “neighborhood feel.” So it very much seems like it would be possible, he just doesn’t want it. It’s always Yoshi P’s way or the highway. You stated he develops the game a certain way, housing falls under the game.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

Technically, you didn't have you purchase it. That was your option and you chose wrong.

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Given I peaced out of WoW at Legion when I saw the game wasn't for me anymore, instead of giving Mr Hazziokas more chances to take my cash and trying to get me to do more endless grinding?

My wrong choice was giving him a chance with Legion after WoD. WOTLK will forever be the pinnacle of WoW, MoP will forever be underrated despite it being a genuinely good expansion and Ion will keep releasing the same reskinned "special content" while claiming it's new, exciting and innovative.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

You can disagree with it, it doesn’t make it not true. He’s gone on record saying he didn’t implement instanced housing because he wants a “neighborhood feel.” So it very much seems like it would be possible, he just doesn’t want it. It’s always Yoshi P’s way or the highway. You stated he develops the game a certain way, housing falls under the game.

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MMOs are ever changing based on dev desires and player requests, and just because he made a comment once stating he wanted a neighborhood feel, it doesn't mean that's still how he feels. I'M HOPING by this point he's realized what a mistake wards were and isn't stubbornly just doubling down constantly vs. there being an actual technical reason why they can't implement decentinstanced housing.

I don't doubt that they could possibly make more instanced housing similar to what we already have with house interiors/apartments, but can they create something substantially more fleshed out that compares to some of the better housing systems out there? Eehhh.

Just my 2c, but that reaction time graph doesn't work for ffxiv - a game highly reliant on experience, retention and anticipation. Literally nothing in this game is RNG in battle, even in the content where it might swap phases back to front.

I am a player who does expect SOMETHING more from other players, but it varies from player to player depending on how long they've been around. I am 1/8th of the party and often it feels like I am 4/8ths of it. I expect the same level of passion and work put into a duty, particularly if it is extreme level or above. Just because the game is built around casual play (and if I'm being honest built around absolute morons/narcissists/self-entitled players), it doesn't mean that you can excuse yourself or anyone for being lazy, ignorant and unwilling to better yourself.

People who don't bother looking into correct rotations, yet will spend 5000 hours AFK in limsa RPing that they're hardcore players rather than actually doing anything meaningful in game. Why should I have to carry some absolute waste of space in anything? It's a load of crap and I'm tired of them being excused over and over and over. "stop bullying them :C". What about me? They're the issue, wasting my time and everyone else's time. I don't know them, so why am I expected to have all the time in the world for someone who can't spend 30 minutes every so often practicing on a dummy? It's bloody entitled and narcissistic as hell.

Not to dismiss whatever someone finds enjoyable, you do you honey. But when people don't want you around in anything or you find yourself being kicked out etc, maybe consider that you haven't respected anyone by being garbage at the game.

It's not more about what people's capabilities are or the difficulty of content, it is a toxic and enabled mindset of the average casual player. soz not soz.

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Originally Posted by KikiTia

It's one thing to rip on people for being slow/incompetent at high end content that is designed to be difficult. It's another thing to rip on someone for being slow/incompetent in a normal 4 man MSQ dungeon, or hell even normal raids. Not everyone wants to go at 100% speed, some can't actually. And in my experience it invariably drags out the dungeon when someone gets angry and starts throwing a fit because someone else wasn't doing things the "correct" way. Just be patient and give them time and space to learn. Coach them when you can. Just stop being an asshole. Nobody wants to listen to you tell a sprout why they're garbage at the game. Or tell them to just "git gud" without any constructive criticism in the same breath. You're wasting everyone's time as much as the sprout and you're alienating them from the community on top of it. You will survive if a dungeon takes 5 minutes longer than normal. Or even 10. You don't even have to coach them, just let them have the space to learn and try again. You were a noob once too, would you want some random person heckling you over being bad at a game you haven't even been playing for a week?

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As have said in another thread, some players don't offer that chance.

I was kicked (voted) off a run of 'Tower at Paradigm's Breach' last night. That was the second time I've been kicked off a team without really knowing why. If it was because my performance was crap, or I did something wrong, I'm not going to learn anything from it because no-one specified what I did wrong.

Sorry, I'll admit to being pretty damn bad at the game - but I'm not going to learn anything by being kicked off a team without explanation.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

Sorry, I'll admit to being pretty damn bad at the game - but I'm not going to learn anything by being kicked off a team without explanation.

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Have you watched a guide for the raid? Have you checked one of the public resources regarding job rotations such as The Balance?

If you can say yes to the above then you've done enough, and they shouldn't have kicked you. But it sounds more to me like you've just become complacent with your performance and accept it instead of improving. Perhaps kinda selfish for the 7 other people in the party who one would expect to do the work so you can clear the content, no?

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

snip

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That's something the devs and their sometimes erratic ToS enforcement as well as the additions they made to them over the years fostered and these additions were something a part of the community asked for - you can thank them and the devs listening to this feedback.
You can report someone for "enforcing a playstyle" and they even gave explicit examples for it - which includes giving advice on something, depending on how you word it. You have to be extremely careful with how you word advice or someone, somewhere might see it as a reason to report you even if you yourself asked for it and were fine with the advice.
Did you know that it is reportable if someone calls themself an idiot, dumb etc, even when said in jest? You know, the classic "oh lol I'm so dumb" after failing a mechanic?
Or that "please aoe in big pulls" can be considered enforcing a playstyle? Or "if the boss does this you have to move there"? You have to word it in a way that is vague and directed at nobody in particular and it also has to be clear that it's optional... if you feel like doing it.
I've personally never gotten reported for anything (or at least never faced consequences) and I do regularly give advice on some things or ask for something but I'm also aware that someone else might take offense by me giving advice to another person and people have been reported and faced consequences for it.

The community has grown more and more silent because some people are simply paranoid, some have personal experience with the ToS being wielded against them when trying to help, some have personal experience with advice being taken very, very badly and some simply don't want to bother with scrambling for the right words when they only want their roulette to be over.
The "you don't pay my sub" is a meme for a reason.

Kicking without warning is pretty common because of that. In DF and also in PF, where communication is definitely better. While advice on mechanics like "use sprint during the cast, helps a lot to dodge it in time" (looking at you, double red planets on Planetflinger) is common in PF, you can't really talk about dps so if there is an issue with that you get the silent boot.

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Originally Posted by SwingLifeAway

Have you watched a guide for the raid? Have you checked one of the public resources regarding job rotations such as The Balance?

If you can say yes to the above then you've done enough, and they shouldn't have kicked you. But it sounds more to me like you've just become complacent with your performance and accept it instead of improving. Perhaps kinda selfish for the 7 other people in the party who one would expect to do the work so you can clear the content, no?

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No.

I wouldn't say I've become complacent at all to be honest; I simply know my limitations. I stick to Normal level content to avoid being a hinderance in content I'm not ready for. However, I've played 'Tower at Paradigm's Breach' quite a few times and do have a fairly good grasp of what I'm supposed to do there. It didn't seem as if I was underperforming as such (though will concede that I may be wrong on that) and I didn't die too frequently. Granted I may not have been performing to the standard of others in the team but I was hardly stood in one spot doing nothing.

If this had been a 'Savage' run of something or other I'd say you were right - but it wasn't.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

some have personal experience with advice being taken very, very badly

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Yo FR though, this is truth
Had an AST in a SHB dungeon once, they didn't cast any DPS spells and didn't give cards
I politely asked them if they wouldn't mind doing some offensive spells and giving cards, and the AST and their two friends immediately told me not to place blame and flame the AST.

I've never tried giving advice or asking for anything since.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

Sorry, I'll admit to being pretty damn bad at the game - but I'm not going to learn anything by being kicked off a team without explanation.

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I think the parties that are kicking you may be making a bad assumption about your performance, likely assuming that there is some kind of ignoble cause behind your performance, like afking or botting.

People generally don't explain why they're dismissing others because they don't want to end up in an argument, and are sometimes afraid of being reported, as directly telling someone "Your DPS is extremely low" is prohibited. It's easier to just kick the person and move on in most cases unfortunately.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

I think the parties that are kicking you may be making a bad assumption about your performance, likely assuming that there is some kind of ignoble cause behind your performance, like afking or botting.

People generally don't explain why they're dismissing others because they don't want to end up in an argument, and are sometimes afraid of being reported, as directly telling someone "Your DPS is extremely low" is prohibited. It's easier to just kick the person and move on in most cases unfortunately.

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Great... so whilst I thought I wasn't doing too badly in the content I'm more familiar with, the fact is that I'm actually performing so badly that other players either think I'm a BOT or are judging me unworthy of being in their presence?

Gods - I once theorized, here, that I might not be competent enough to play this game. It seems I'm not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

Great... so whilst I thought I wasn't doing too badly in the content I'm more familiar with, the fact is that I'm actually performing so badly that other players either think I'm a BOT or are judging me unworthy of being in their presence?

Gods - I once theorized, here, that I might not be competent enough to play this game. It seems I'm not.

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It's not really your fault. The way the game is prevents you from knowing what you are doing wrong asides from when you fail mechanics and get a vuln/die. And then people are too scared to give advice for the reasons stated previously, they're too afraid it will just end up in either an argument or a ban.

I don’t expect anyone to be an elite player though I do expect when I group with you that what I am noticing could be indicative of a money behind the screen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

As have said in another thread, some players don't offer that chance.

I was kicked (voted) off a run of 'Tower at Paradigm's Breach' last night. That was the second time I've been kicked off a team without really knowing why. If it was because my performance was crap, or I did something wrong, I'm not going to learn anything from it because no-one specified what I did wrong.

Sorry, I'll admit to being pretty damn bad at the game - but I'm not going to learn anything by being kicked off a team without explanation.

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What's worst about this is there were probably people in that group who would have been willing to explain why and even help, but they're stifled by the ToS and how the general community mindset is to argue with advice, so they just assume the worst and silent kicks are the only option.

I don't like players who expect carries in team content or refuse to try. But at the same time if a player wanted to learn, I'd happily set aside my own spare time to teach them whatever they needed. However, in this game I'm banned from using performance recording tools to assist in that, would probably be told I'm a filthy elitist and to mind my own business if I offered and would be threatened with a ban if I explained their performance was detrimental to the team and could be improved. So why bother. Just kick the underperforming player silently or put in twice the work to carry them for no thanks, it's the only option the devs gave us.

That's the happy friendly environment the developers have built.