Yoshi P to Mr.Happy "Heal DPS is not mandatory and no expectation for Healer to DPS!"

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Originally Posted by Ry0uSh1n

The only real way to "fix" this whole "Healers SHOULD DPS" is to disable their damaging spells/abilities while they are in a dungeon/raid. Which would make them 100% healer's. The only reason for healers dps would be for open world and solo content. This will never happen of course, disabling of abilities/spells, so the mindset of "Healers WILL DPS or Vote Kick" will remain. Sadly. That is and will always be the way of the community.

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/slap

No. You fix it by readjusting content so healing takes a more predominant role but the option to DPS is still there for skilled players that wish to.

You don't force a playstyle onto the community one way or the other.

People are not asking for healers to DPS or kick. We're asking for the lazy bastards among you to be given ways to contribute when the amount of healing required in everyday dungeons is already slim to nil.

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Originally Posted by Ry0uSh1n

D:

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Because standing around doing nothing is so much fun eh? :D

Well, this changes nothing for me, if the healer doesn't even try to DPS during low or 0 damage phases, I will kick you from the party.

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Originally Posted by Ry0uSh1n

The only real way to "fix" this whole "Healers SHOULD DPS" is to disable their damaging spells/abilities while they are in a dungeon/raid. Which would make them 100% healer's. The only reason for healers dps would be for open world and solo content. This will never happen of course, disabling of abilities/spells, so the mindset of "Healers WILL DPS or Vote Kick" will remain. Sadly. That is and will always be the way of the community.

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That would hurt the game in a way you don't seem to understand.
This game is based on mechanic damage which means you can always expect when and where damage will occur if people know how to play. This leaves you with insane amounts of downtime between tank/raid damage instances.
The reason why dps is only imperative in raids is not tied to the difficulty of said content, it's just because in a casual environment you can't expect people to play optimally so it's likely that you will encounter unexpected raid damage every once in a while.
With that said, even in casual content you have so much time in your hands that only healing means you're doing half of the job compared to anybody else. People should stop thinking about healing/tanking/dpsing as their job, and start thinking about how much time they actually spend doing things to the team. A tank and a dps will always be doing their rotations and using their cooldowns to optimize the run, while a healer can just throw a heal every 10s if not more and stop there for healing. That is why not dpsing as a healer is disrespectful to anyone spending their time doing something.

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Originally Posted by Venjenz

I agree with this mostly, but it does read like doing dps is the only way to contribute to a group, when tanking, healing and support are actual functions that also contribute.

That said, I agree with the theory of why would you want to just stand around doing nothing when those down periods occur? Like someone else said in another thread on this, rule 1 is that there is always a button you can press that could help out somehow.

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That was more what I was getting at. If it is a confidence issue of the healer they need to also speak up. I can't read minds and more then happy to assist where I can. That I think is the issue here. It is communication. The lack there of and those who do going on about it not being their job all defensively. We dps can be arrogant, but as team we can't succeed without communicating.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Many, many, many healers will let dps die in favor of doing more damage, just from a cursory glance through these forums. So long as I don't let the tank die, I consider my job complete. That's what oGCD's are for no?



I wouldn't mind. That's just more reason for me to only dps.

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If you are indeed letting dps die in favor of dpsing yourself that is a crap move. Unless said dps is never moving out of crap then they deserve to die.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

If you are indeed letting dps die in favor of dpsing yourself that is a crap move. Unless said dps is never moving out of crap then they deserve to die.

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Nope, they never do. I don't have infinite resources, so dps that eat every AoE are going to stay dead fairly quickly. I pretty much never bother raising anyone with BoD, there's other venues I could be putting my finite resources to instead.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

I know exactly what she said,but I also know she was trolling you because of your antagonist way of responding to folks. i've seen her other replies. When you result to name calling that's what you get. however, if you look at my post it was regarding that healer dps is not needed in a dungeon. i wasn't defending her/him. if I felt she actually did that i would say something. However based on other post i've seen them make i believe this isn't the actual behavior.

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Not being NEEDED is immaterial. Dps don't NEED to be running optimal rotations and tanks don't NEED to be stance dancing. But tanks SHOULD stance dance and dps SHOULD know their rotations and know when to AE versus when to single target and healers SHOULD dps. Failure to do any of the above means you're half-assing it and you are wasting 3 other people's time as well as your own.

*shrugs*

Whatever. The reality is that healers that dont contribute to dps will always lose their slot to ones who can, given the option. If a qoute from Yoshi P makes you feel better about playing the jobs at a lower level of competency then huzzah I guess.

That being said, enjoy getting kicked when you stand around while the rest of your party are giving it their all. At least when you set to follow, afk to netflix and fairy heal a dungeon you can take comfort in that Yoshi P says its okay.

It really doesn't matter what Yoshi-P says because it's ultimately up to the community and what the community expects. I would encourage people to make parties looking for healer DPS so that you aren't at the mercy of DF, plus it might encourage some much needed social interaction in this game.

the weird thing is that yoship says he meant healers to heal but then the content we get are dungeons that i can run with 100% cleric stance uptime on scholar and raids like a10s where you cast aspected helios like 2 or 3 times and a couple of asp benes and thats all you heal in the entire run

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

:)

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Also, in certain cases the DPS is just so bad, that its actually a DPS loss for the team as a whole for the healer to heal/revive the bad dps...

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Originally Posted by Baalfrog

Also, in certain cases the DPS is just so bad, that its actually a DPS loss for the team as a whole for the healer to heal/revive the bad dps...

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Yup! This is why I mostly play tank. I can just solidify aggro and swap to dps stance unless the healers blank out or something. Always get those healers that almost wipe the group from focusing too hard on deeps though... le sigh.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Yup! This is why I mostly play tank. I can just solidify aggro and swap to dps stance unless the healers blank out or something. Always get those healers that almost wipe the group from focusing too hard on deeps though... le sigh.

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heh, i've quit healing pugs because I constantly get tanks that sit in dps stance trying to tank and not burn cool downs. very annoying.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Yup! This is why I mostly play tank. I can just solidify aggro and swap to dps stance unless the healers blank out or something. Always get those healers that almost wipe the group from focusing too hard on deeps though... le sigh.

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For the most tanks I see, either struggle to hold hate, even have the nerve to tell a quelling strike using blm to stop casting spells because they pull hate from "pressing too many buttons" or tanks that stay in DPS too much making them a sponge.

So what is your point?

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Originally Posted by Feidam

heh, i've quit healing pugs because I constantly get tanks that sit in dps stance trying to tank and not burn cool downs. very annoying.

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Yeah, tanks that don't use CD's are always fun to deal with. Never understood why people don't use them.

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Originally Posted by Hamada

So what is your point?

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DPSing as a healer is snooze-worthy, aggressive tanking while managing cooldowns and enmity is infinitely more rewarding to me?

Alternatively: RP server.

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Originally Posted by Hamada

For the most tanks I see, either struggle to hold hate, even have the nerve to tell a quelling strike using blm to stop casting spells because they pull hate from "pressing too many buttons" or tanks that stay in DPS too much making them a sponge.

So what is your point?

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I started to reply with a serious comment....read your name. Nothing what you said is any sort of true. Felicia. Bye.

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

YOSHI P STATED AND I QUOTE "I firmly believe that it should not be mandatory(Healers DPSing) and we do not have the expectation for them to dps!" HOW IN THE HECK IS THAT MY OPINION WHEN IT WAS HIS STATEMENT!?!?! That is beyond goofy! Wow!

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It was nice that people were so unified underneath YoshiP for a while, but it needs to stop.

Just because he makes a comment doesn't mean that's the end of the conversation. He has to to remain neutral as possible on all things, and this is one of those things. He can't say any playstyle is mandatory, battle OR otherwise.

He also said there's no such thing as a "Correct rotation" in an interview, and that however you want to play should be fine, because you're paying a sub. You didn't (and don't) see DPS coming out the wood-work making threads saying, "We can play how we want, confirmed! He defended my spamming of Blizzard abilities!" It's a silly line of thought, because everyone KNOWS you have more in your kit, and that you could be doing better. This double-standard is what's goofy.

Any healer okay with putting in the bare minimum, making the run longer, should be okay with Tanks never using cooldowns, and DPS never doing AoE.

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Originally Posted by Pence

I started to reply with a serious comment....read your name. Nothing what you said is any sort of true. Felicia. Bye.

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Actually, there are plenty of tanks that do that. Most don't, but most healer don't just stand around either.

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Originally Posted by Ry0uSh1n

The only real way to "fix" this whole "Healers SHOULD DPS" is to disable their damaging spells/abilities while they are in a dungeon/raid. Which would make them 100% healer's. The only reason for healers dps would be for open world and solo content. This will never happen of course, disabling of abilities/spells, so the mindset of "Healers WILL DPS or Vote Kick" will remain. Sadly. That is and will always be the way of the community.

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Honestly, it is good there is the mentality of "Healers SHOULD DPS" in the community. It means there is a will to try and improve somewhere in the community. The game is designed so that "Healers SHOULD DPS;" they basically say this in the Hall of Novice. It is definitely not intended for healers to only heal; it is only designed for it to be possible for healers to only heal. If they wanted healers to only heal, content would be designed with strict heal checks.

There is no need to "fix" the "Healers SHOULD DPS" mentality. If anything, it should be made more clear that such a style is intended and supported. Just because it isn't mandatory for Healers to DPS, doesn't mean it was not intended for Healers to DPS.

If the producer of the game says that he doesn't expect healers to do dps, then he shouldn't design content that has so low of a healing requirement that you can literally do the entire content without leaving cleric stance, or be completely handled by an NPC pet.

If you don't expect healers to do dps, then what do you expect them to do exactly ? They certainly aren't doing much healing.

My 2gils.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

Actually, there are plenty of tanks that do that. Most don't, but most healer don't just stand around either.

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About the only people I've seen try to use that as a counter point are people that play on one of the two rp servers, though. I play all three roles, and have done so for the past four years now since 2.X, and the only time I found a tank that couldn't hold hate, it was due to me being so drastically overgeared in comparison it was unfair. Like, I270 nin vs I200 DRK unfair.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

Actually, there are plenty of tanks that do that. Most don't, but most healer don't just stand around either.

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"For the most tanks I see, either struggle to hold hate, even have the nerve to tell a quelling strike using blm to stop casting spells because they pull hate from "pressing too many buttons" or tanks that stay in DPS too much making them a sponge.

So what is your point?"

....none of this is real.

I have seen now many times: In a dungeon the dps and tank do their very best to make the run as fast as possible and smooth and then... the healer has nothing to do! What does the healer do? He just jumps around in cricles or does a /sit! Cool.
Its simply disrespectful to not do anything while your whole group trys their best.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

About the only people I've seen try to use that as a counter point are people that play on one of the two rp servers, though. I play all three roles, and have done so for the past four years now since 2.X, and the only time I found a tank that couldn't hold hate, it was due to me being so drastically overgeared in comparison it was unfair. Like, I270 nin vs I200 DRK unfair.

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"I am a toxic poster that judges people based on server"

Ok? So what I said did not happen because of the server I ended up on? Also a i200 DRK can't queue for expert. If they are ilevel dodging, that is on them now isnt it?

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Originally Posted by Pence

"For the most tanks I see, either struggle to hold hate, even have the nerve to tell a quelling strike using blm to stop casting spells because they pull hate from "pressing too many buttons" or tanks that stay in DPS too much making them a sponge.

So what is your point?"

....none of this is real.

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Um .. it happened....

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Originally Posted by Hamada

"I am a toxic poster that judges people based on server"

Ok? So what I said did not happen because of the server I ended up on?

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Oh, I never said it never happened! You just happen to be on a data center where people tend to be more interested in RPing. I've never had any issues with PUG tanks at all, yet most problem players I get are healers that tunnel vision on dps too much. =3 If you think pointing out we're on different servers is toxic... I dunno what to say but /laugh.

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Originally Posted by Kling-Klang

I have seen now many times: In a dungeon the dps and tank do their very best to make the run as fast as possible and smooth and then... the healer has nothing to do! What does the healer do? He just jumps around in cricles or does a /sit! Cool.
Its simply disrespectful to not do anything while your whole group trys their best.

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Will if SE really wants to stop speed run, they need to make mobs hit harder so tanks can't handle more than one pack. Guess we'll see what SB holds. Healers have some of the best AoE attacks in the game so of course people want you use that in dungeon trash. The question is, do healers want SE to just remove their AoE attacks?

Can we just get rid of the healer slot for dungeons and replace it with a RDM slot? That would solve this problem.

It would help DPS queues, too!

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Originally Posted by Hamada

Um .. it happened....

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Did it though? The majority of tanks you meet can't hold hate, or blame a quelling strike BLM? I'm beginning to think you believe your forum posts are well received and that everyone else is the problem.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Can we just get rid of the healer slot for dungeons and replace it with a RDM slot? That would solve this problem.

It would help DPS queues, too!

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Knowing SE, I'd not be surprised if that 350 potency heal RDM has actually sufficed for most content >_>

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Knowing SE, I'd not be surprised if that 350 potency heal RDM has actually sufficed for most content >_>

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if not, dualcast verraise will.

Grabs popcorn

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Originally Posted by Hamada

Also a i200 DRK can't queue for expert. If they are ilevel dodging, that is on them now isnt it?

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So there's no content in the game at all excluding expert? Odd. I could've swore there was a wide variety of content, not just one. Thanks for correcting my flawed views! /s

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Originally Posted by Seoulstar

Now that even the head of the game thinks this. Maybe that will finally end this tiring debate once and for all.

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Oh sweetie, Yoshi-P's words are only going to make it worse, especially with all the people now questioning how in-touch he and the dev team are with the game proper. :B

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

Oh sweetie, Yoshi-P's words are only going to make it worse, especially with all the people now questioning how in-touch he and the dev team are with the game proper. :B

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Correction: a few people on a forum that has always been out of touch with the general userbase of the game are questioning how in-touch he and the dev team are with the game proper.

Because, thankfully, this forum has never been representative of the game's userbase, which is usually much nicer and more welcoming and accepting that the angry bunch posting here.

I guarantee you that if you were to ask Yoshi-P if DPS attempting to do their best rotation, or tank stance dancing should be mandatory, he would say "No." The only intended way to play in a dungeon is for your party to clear it within the 60 minute time limit. The developers want the majority of this game to be open to casual players. They could never say that casual players are required to do more than they're comfortable with on basic content, and risk scaring customers away.

Healer DPS will never be mandatory for basic content. Playing even halfway decently will never be required either. The only requirement set forth by the developers is that you are capable of clearing the content within the time limit.

However from a social standpoint, willfully doing the bare minimum and expecting your party to carry you through content makes you an ass.

YEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSS, YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS take that you pseudo elitists!! XD
Now you can do nothing to stop a healer not dpsing, NOTHING, this is so EPIC. Try to kick the healer now LOL.

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Originally Posted by Hamada

I dare them to try that with the current state of the game. The mass quitting of healers be so large you bee waiting 1 hr + in queues in current content.

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Lol. I'm sure this game doesn't have to worry about such ultimatums. You and they won't quit and even if you did you'll be back. It's how this game and it's community works. Largely due to one simple fact... there is nothing else unless you want to play WoW.

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Originally Posted by Hamada

Healer DPS is the problem, PEOPLE SAYING HEALERS NEED TO DPS is the problem! premade abuse and telling healers they are **** for not using cleric at all is the problem. BASHING A HEALER because a tank has to use CDS because the healer isn't doing their job is a problem.

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Fixed that for youuuuu♪♪♪ No no, no need to thank me. But... you're welcome anyways. (^_~)v

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Originally Posted by Hamada

blah blah blah

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Look, the fact of the matter is, a healer's only job is to heal. The ONLY reason they even have dmg spells is to be able to solo, something very important in today's mmo world.

When it comes down to it, a healer who sits around watching health bars, keeping an eye out for anything that comes their way while keeping the group alive, is doing 100% of their job. If said healer also wants to throw in some dps on top of that, great, they are now doing 150% of their job.

The problem with you people is, you want to treat the 150% as the baseline 100% and that just straight up scumlord material. Or as you would put it, toxic behavior. Hope your proud of yourself ;)

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Originally Posted by Keikun

YEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSS, YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS take that you pseudo elitists!! XD
Now you can do nothing to stop a healer not dpsing, NOTHING, this is so EPIC. Try to kick the healer now LOL.

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...? This changes nothing. They can still kick you.

They should make us pay for admission to this thread. Perhaps we should pay a fee on mogstation to access it or just up the sub a buck or two.

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Originally Posted by Keikun

YEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSS, YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS take that you pseudo elitists!! XD
Now you can do nothing to stop a healer not dpsing, NOTHING, this is so EPIC. Try to kick the healer now LOL.

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So your logic is to become an elitist yourself to show those "elitists" that they're wrong?