Is DPS'ing as a Healer Vote Kickable?

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Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

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You did everything except answer the ACTUAL QUESTION. Read the post, think clearly, and then answer

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Originally Posted by Malzian

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You did everything except ANSWER THE QUESTION. Please read again, and get off the high horse of "not doing DPS", and direct your answer to what I actually asked.

Sheesh.

Two of you can't take time to parse words, so far.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Dungeons are tuned to be easy for everyone, and I doubt this has anything to do with whether or not they are looking at tank/healer DPS, rather just scaling everything down to suit testing.

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At least you didn't go off into la-la land about 'requiring DPS'. Not that you answered my question, mind you.

What is wrong with healer DPS without using Cleric Stance in an instance? It's still DPS, and the healer is 'always casting' in that case.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

You did everything except ANSWER THE QUESTION. Please read again, and get off the high horse of "not doing DPS", and direct your answer to what I actually asked.

Sheesh.

Two of you can't take time to parse words, so far.

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Oh so you literally mean, "Why use Cleric Stance to DPS?" and not just "Why DPS?"

Honestly the answer is simple... Cleric Stance makes your damage spells do more damage because of the fact that they're based off of Int and not Mind. If you're not in Cleric Stance when you're DPSing as a healer, you're nerfing your damage as much as an OT in tank stance in a fight with no adds. If they ever make healer damage spells based off of mind, then Cleric Stance is moot. Until then... You should be using it if you're DPSing to get the most effect out of your spells.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

At least you didn't go off into la-la land about 'requiring DPS'. Not that you answered my question, mind you.

What is wrong with healer DPS without using Cleric Stance in an instance? It's still DPS, and the healer is 'always casting' in that case.

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Aye as the guy above said, it's a powerful tool in your kit that gives your spells oomph :3 Cleric Stance makes your cast for cast DPS spells immensely more powerful. Why be ABCing with less powerful spells if you're ABCing anyways is what it really boils down to.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

You did everything except answer the ACTUAL QUESTION. Read the post, think clearly, and then answer

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My post answers properly in context of the discussion that was at hand.

If you're referring to what this guy answered...

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Originally Posted by Malzian

Oh so you literally mean, "Why use Cleric Stance to DPS?" and not just "Why DPS?"

Honestly the answer is simple... Cleric Stance makes your damage spells do more damage because of the fact that they're based off of Int and not Mind. If you're not in Cleric Stance when you're DPSing as a healer, you're nerfing your damage as much as an OT in tank stance in a fight with no adds. If they ever make healer damage spells based off of mind, then Cleric Stance is moot. Until then... You should be using it if you're DPSing to get the most effect out of your spells.

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... then that specification wasn't particularly brought to mind since it should be obvious due to how cleric stance and healer stats work.



The point of my answer still stands.
Once the party has no more need of support, then the only thing left to do is do dps.

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Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

... then that specification wasn't particularly brought to mind since it should be obvious due to how cleric stance and healer stats work.

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*Cough*Peopledon'treadtheirskills.*Cough*

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

What is wrong with healer DPS without using Cleric Stance in an instance? It's still DPS, and the healer is 'always casting' in that case.

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This has grown into such a long thread that I may have overlooked it, but has anyone really been arguing specifically about the use of Cleric Stance or is this something you keep asking as a "gotcha" question?

And I personally said a few pages back that DPSing outside of CS is better than not DPSing at all even if it's not very efficient.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

This has grown into such a long thread that I may have overlooked it, but has anyone really been arguing specifically about the use of Cleric Stance or is this something you keep asking as a "gotcha" question?

And I personally said a few pages back that DPSing outside of CS is better than not DPSing at all even if it's not very efficient.

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Yep. In keeping with my repeated insistence that someone who is legit trying, but is struggling for whatever reason (new, anxiety, disability/limitation, whatever) is a totally different story than someone who just can't be arsed, I will absolutely say that if someone wants to try some DPS'ing as a healer, to expand their skillset and do something with that downtime, but they want to just keep Cleric's off, at least initially, then hey, go for it. Putting in the effort is a huge part of this - someone who fits the above description, who is trying their best but doesn't really do much DPS or keeps Cleric's off, will get a lot more respect for me even if they aren't able to put out much DPS, than someone who is experienced and fully comfortable with their role, and literally just stands around or dances when no healing is required because "healers shouldn't DPS!"

It's not about demanding perfect play from everyone at all times - not something I'd be able to demand anyway, given that I'm far from a great NIN or anything else myself. It's about effort, attitude, and the fact that it really is not okay for 3/4s of the party to have to work much harder than 1/4 for no other reason than "because you're a healer."

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

At least you didn't go off into la-la land about 'requiring DPS'. Not that you answered my question, mind you.

What is wrong with healer DPS without using Cleric Stance in an instance? It's still DPS, and the healer is 'always casting' in that case.

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I didn't answer the question because I was simply correcting the misnomer in your post (about how the devs don't acknowledge healer DPS). I'll answer it now though if you like.

As many have said, the damage done when outside of cleric stance is actually pretty poor and insignificant, and being in cleric stance is a HUGE boost to this damage, so there is very little reason why DPSing outside of cleric stance is viable. I will however say that when I was learning to DPS as a healer, I didn't use cleric stance, I would throw a few DPS spells out while out of cleric stance to see how long was needed before the next cure, gauging my flexibility, and allowing me learn my toolkit better, then I wove in cleric stance once I was confident.

The difference between this and not DPSing is that I am trying, and learning healer the right way. The DPS might be insignificant, but the process is important, and it is something that all healers should go through, rather than stopping at basic heals.

Edit: Also, for the record about your "requiring DPS la la land" comment, TaranTatsuuchi is correct, but perhaps misunderstood your question. DPSing as a healer is an expectation because you should be casting on every GCD (Always Be Casting), and healers don't have much else relevant to do. She even backed up her claim with pretty damning evidence, which puts a lot of the anti-dps arguments into perspective

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

I'm pretty sure the quote in question was that they count both tank and dps. The only concession was that for the Mt, they only count the MT's dps as just enough to hold hate, with no such concession for the off tank.

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Maybe, I haven't seen the exact quote in a while, but it doesn't change the tone of their statement, and the reasons as to why this is the case.

Absolutely not!!

The Healer is free to use any ability they choose, as long as they keep the rest alive.

The only reason people should be kicked are things like AFK, Disconnected or maybe abusive, I think.

People grouped up with strangers need to be more friendly IMHO. It is just a game after all.

I seem to recall I got kicked once because I selected "Greed" for some loot. My character had that class as well as the active one, so it was a perfectly usable item. Nobody else in the Group was active in the relevant class. I have seen plenty of others do the same - although I don't do that any more.

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

Better not get in a group with me then. I am there not heal and keep people alive not dps. I do not dps on my healers, if I want to dps then I will go on a dps job.

There is no requirement to dps as a healer, our job is to keep everyone alive so they can do their job.

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in DF i care not Healer do Dmg or not, as long as they keep everyone alive

kicking a healer for not doing dmg in DF is the most toxicating thing in FFXIV

and the DPS spaming 123 is the most hilarious example

as a tank, their main duty is to keep aggro, to reduce dmg to party be positioning the mob/boss

as a healer their duty is to keep everyone alive and remove debuff as needed

as a DPS their duty is to squeeze out their dmg

DPS doing 1-2-3 is more like healer spamming cure 1 only even if it is not keeping up the heal

tank dropping tank stance for more Dmg is a bonus

Healer doing dmg is a bonus

party leader can ask for what ever they need in Party finder as they create the rule

but in Duty finder, everyone is random, and when one queue as specific role, they are except to do their duty, any thing outside should be count as bonus

like when I queue with my summoner, it is my duty to give as much dps as I can, dont except me to heal, i will help to ease healer stress if needed, but dont take it as granted, same goes for my AST, I will do my best to keep everyone alive, I m more than happy to pop to Cleric stance do give some dmg when I feel comfortable, but again, it shouldnt be take as granted

in DF it is 4/8 or 24 completely total strangers in most of the time
have no idea how my party skill (players) and how their well equip they are ( not going to examine each of them), i found it perfectly fine if healer dont have to dps, as the healer might not be over equip, might be the healer is still not very comfortable with the dung (inexperience)
I rather have a healer does do dmg but keep everyone alive even tank/dps make stupid mistake, than a healer is too focus on dmg and left someone die
it happening more and more often in 24 raid, since there are no iL syn in those last 3 24 raid

only in those case like savage or some extreme primal which dev are too lazy and set a DPS check which need to include tank and heal dps, only in those case i would say healer must be force to dps

I have seen instances where I was on as a DPS and the Healer died and either my DPS Job included healing ability (like SMN I think) or I had one of the healing tasks as a secondary. I managed to keep the rest alive until the Healer got back. On one occasion I even raised the Healer.

Of course, these are bonuses. My main task was as a DPS. However, if the Healer drops and the rest of us just shrug and say "not my job" then we all end up dead.

I think we should treat it as if we were a real Team (which we are of course). Therefore, we will all be prepared to do anything required to keep ourselves and our comrades alive and get the job done.

First off, I just want to say that any healer who is not dpsing when there is room to dps is not using their class to the fullest extent. This means all you heal only players (used to be me) are using your class at a subpar level, which puts a strain on the effectiveness of your party.

To answer the question, people have different playstyles, so as long as you gave no other reason to be kicked (undergeared,toxic, blablabla), (>_<) technically, you can be kicked because the rest of the party did not want you to use your class correctly, OR because someone wanted to "Heal Only" causing the party to not meet certain dps requirements or time limits. As a summoner also I fortunately have the ability to pick up slack when others may fall off, and everyone has to remember that this is a team effort.

if you have dps skills on your healer hotbar you're trolling

Anyone else starting to feel a little Sean of the Dead with all the necroed threads lately?

"Is DPS'ing as a Healer Vote Kickable?"
one of the funniest shit i ever read here

simply marvelous

Well, at least this one isn't that old. Someone's running out of old controversial threads

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Originally Posted by Mousezilla

Anyone else starting to feel a little Sean of the Dead with all the necroed threads lately?

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http://s5.gifyu.com/images/mummytrolls.gif

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Originally Posted by Mousezilla

Anyone else starting to feel a little Sean of the Dead with all the necroed threads lately?

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I dunno who this Sean is, but he's no Shaun.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

I dunno who this Sean is, but he's no Shaun.

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Cheap bootleg I picked up off a card table by the bus stop.

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

Better not get in a group with me then. I am there not heal and keep people alive not dps. I do not dps on my healers, if I want to dps then I will go on a dps job.

There is no requirement to dps as a healer, our job is to keep everyone alive so they can do their job.

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why ignore that part of your kit? killing = less damage taken because the mobs will die and not deal damage....

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Originally Posted by DumdogsWorld

http://s5.gifyu.com/images/mummytrolls.gif

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Oh my God aha, you just make my day.

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Originally Posted by Valic

why ignore that part of your kit? killing = less damage taken because the mobs will die and not deal damage....

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I don't wanna be rude, but it's true only on casual contents. People who think "no I'm a healer, I won't DPS" are casual players too - and that's not a bad thing, don't tell me what I didn't say. It's impossible to deal no damage in HL contents, as a healer. No damage from EVERYONE in the party = boss enrage. And you'll never clear it (especially on patch release when everyone is stuffed at a minimum ilvl)

So, no, it's not kickable, it's even acceptable in DF because it's a choice. But it is in PF and in EX/Savage contents and you can't blame the leader if his party can't clear a fight because of you.

It's acceptable because we don't want to get ban because of selfish healers.

Your job as a player is to help your team clear and you have some nonhealing/dps kit for that.

Sorry I'm a redmage/summoner its not my job to vercure/verraise/ressurect when all healers are dead I'm a dps not a healer ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by Sheli54

Oh my God aha, you just make my day.



I don't wanna be rude, but it's true only on casual contents. People who think "no I'm a healer, I won't DPS" are casual players too - and that's not a bad thing, don't tell me what I didn't say. It's impossible to deal no damage in HL contents, as a healer. No damage from EVERYONE in the party = boss enrage. And you'll never clear it (especially on patch release when everyone is stuffed at a minimum ilvl)

So, no, it's not kickable, it's even acceptable in DF because it's a choice. But it is in PF and in EX/Savage contents and you can't blame the leader if his party can't clear a fight because of you.

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Actually.... it is kickable according to the GM confirming "having different playstyle" is kickable. It's a bad thing in casual content to sit an do nothing for every pull except refresh a regen on the tank. You're given a dot, a single target attack, and aoe.... There's a reason for that and it's not just for killing things by yourself.

SE say players are allowed to vote kick due to different play styles. Am I only only one that sees the stupidity and hypocrisy of that statement. First Yoshi P say a person can play the game how they want, them they turn around and say you can be vote kicked of you’re playing differently.. pick a lane SE

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Originally Posted by Warghoul570

SE say players are allowed to vote kick due to different play styles. Am I only only one that sees the stupidity and hypocrisy of that statement. First Yoshi P say a person can play the game how they want, them they turn around and say you can be vote kicked of you’re playing differently.. pick a lane SE

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Everyone can play however they want. So when you're in a group, the way that the majority of the people in that group want to play will win out and the minority in that group will either have to adjust, leave, or face the possibility of being kicked unless the people in the majority leave and are replaced by people who side with the minority or the group disband.

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Originally Posted by Parawill

If a healer decides to DPS in their downtime, while keeping the group alive, a legitimate reason to vote kick someone? Asking, since word on the streets says that we're allowed to vote kick people for differentiating playstyles.

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What? Why would you be vote kicked for DPSing as a healer? It’s what your supposed to do in the down time (which is long) in between heals.

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Originally Posted by EpicOverlord85

What? Why would you be vote kicked for DPSing as a healer? It’s what your supposed to do in the down time (which is long) in between heals.

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Ohhh it’s a zombie thread from 2017, ok now this makes sense

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Originally Posted by EpicOverlord85

What? Why would you be vote kicked for DPSing as a healer? It’s what your supposed to do in the down time (which is long) in between heals.

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Straight up got asked to stop dpsing by the tank when me and friend ran one roulette (back in SB) me and friend were perplexed I said sure so I emoted like never before, they very well could've tried a vote kick over it had I decided to continue (sleepy run just gave me and friend easier time to talk random stupid stuff) it can happen weirdly.

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Originally Posted by Warghoul570

SE say players are allowed to vote kick due to different play styles. Am I only only one that sees the stupidity and hypocrisy of that statement. First Yoshi P say a person can play the game how they want, them they turn around and say you can be vote kicked of you’re playing differently.. pick a lane SE

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There's no hypocrisy in that. You're always welcome to find other players who accept/agree with your chosen playstyle and group with them.

I could probably count on one hand the number of times I've seen a group trying to vote kick someone for a reason other than AFK or offline. It's a rarity. If you end up in a group that does want to kick you (or anyone) for some trivial reason you're probably better off not being in that group in the first place.

It's pretty dumb to vote kick a healer for doing dps. There is still a big shortage of healers. So unless want every healer you kick to black list you and cause your queue time to more than double I would think trice about kicking one for just doing dps on the down time. If I ever got kicked for doing dps everyone would be put on my blacklist and I never party with them again and I would let all my friends to watch out for them.

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

Better not get in a group with me then. I am there not heal and keep people alive not dps. I do not dps on my healers, if I want to dps then I will go on a dps job.

There is no requirement to dps as a healer, our job is to keep everyone alive so they can do their job.

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i wonder if this person still feels this way 3 years later since i see they have an 80 sch :thinking:

edit: nvm looked them up, they do lol

Of course not! Even more so since we have macros that can literally have your character target whatever the tank is targeting without ever having to leave the party list. I doubt anyone would actually do this as it is more so required at least by level 50 and beyond. This, however, is in your downtime. Remember that. Okay, maybe not required, but like someone already said, if you aren't DPSing as a healer when you have downtime, I won't start a vote kick, but I will sadly have to pick "yes" if the window happens to pop up.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

It's pretty dumb to vote kick a healer for doing dps. There is still a big shortage of healers. So unless want every healer you kick to black list you and cause your queue time to more than double I would think trice about kicking one for just doing dps on the down time. If I ever got kicked for doing dps everyone would be put on my blacklist and I never party with them again and I would let all my friends to watch out for them.

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Problem: Blacklist doesn't stop you from being partied up with them in DF (I don't think DF even accounts for it for the sake of simplicity. I mean I've seen alliance raids where there's 3 WHMs including me, and one of them is also in my party, so I don't think the matchmaking system is that smart). Just means you can't see what they say while in the duty. Unless that changed recently... but I've been partied up before via DF with people I've blacklisted.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

It's pretty dumb to vote kick a healer for doing dps.

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id say yes and no, really depend on the situation but to give you an exemple
as a main DRK i ve seen countless time where i had to use my "Living dead" to try to stay alive that 10 extra sec, that i included in a big shiny macro type
"HEY LIVING DEAD IS ON YOU GOT 10 SEC TO TOP ME HP !" (already having to get into living dead there already somethin wrong ... anyway)
and you see the heal just literally not giving a single Fu.., and focus in "dpsing"
then yeah when wipe is over ill start a vote kick to kick the heal !
obviously a healer should DPS when he got time, but to not forget that hes "MAIN" job is to heal

always infuirating to wipe, because both healer were too busy dpsing and be like "i can keep going the other heal will heal", ending up both didnt and wiped

As the community is nowadays, it's easier the healer gets vote kicked if he doesn't DPS.

Personally, I don't vote kick for healers for their play-style. I don't think it's fair to be vote kicked for that. However, if I see you aren't DPS'ing, I'm going to assume you are going to focus all your time on healing and if I'm tanking, I'm probably doing wall-to-wall pulls.

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Originally Posted by Mousezilla

Anyone else starting to feel a little Sean of the Dead with all the necroed threads lately?

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BroFists/TitanMen is on so many ignore lists now, he's resorting to necroing old threads to get attention.

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

BroFists/TitanMen is on so many ignore lists now, he's resorting to necroing old threads to get attention.

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I was under the impression that ignore list works by posts, not threads. So it would be in people's interests to make a new thread if they want to be seen by people who ignore them.