Maybe it's time for a casual "strike" if not complete departure.

Nope, WoW seems to be getting more newbies. It's far from uncommon while leveling my alts I get at least 1 new person(usually mentioned by said player). Tbh it reminds me of how FFXIV used to be.
If it's a tank someone else even leads the way or uses pings to guide them in the right direction.

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Originally Posted by Eraden

Mao will gives example of what Mao talkings about earlier with regard to making boss fights has more random elements. So, big bad boss at some point during fight decides to act. Game rolls a dice. On one two or three, Boss calls in some mooks to helps out. On four five or six, Boss decides toss big round boulder at random party member outside of melee range.

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From what little I've seen, that is essentially the "chaotic" in the current and only "chaotic alliance raid".

And yes, I do think more combat content could stand to be structured that way. The trick is to tune the consequences for failing mechanics appropriately.

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Originally Posted by Immut

You don't mean 'casual' you mean 'bad'. Casual is not just a nice euphemism for bad. It's your choice not to engage with the game at a level that requires skill. Casual players can clear chaotic. There's no lockout, very low gear requirement, anyone can do it on their schedule if they have the skill to do so. Bad players can not.

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I mean any given player (provided they are not bound by extrinsic factors like visual impairment, I suppose they can but with a much greater deal of frustration involved), can clear content in this game. This is not a game of skill. It's a game of dance and learning a pre-programmed script. 'Bad' players can clear anything in this game if they decide to put their mind to it.

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Originally Posted by Menriq

I'm trying to understand. There are a finite number of mechanics. What do you feel about them is making them complex that needs to be simpler?

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That is hard for me to put in words, I apologize in advance. I'll try to explain with mechanics I have experienced (I was unable to prog the new chaotic for much longer than 1 lockout due to IRL obligations):

For a (imho good) example, compare Hello World (Omega 12 Savage) or Light Rampant (Eden 8 Savage) with the first phase of chaotic.

Hello World requires you to understand 3 debuffs, how you explode in an AoE and who to hit with what, meaning you learn an intricate movement pattern by heart to touch specific players at specific times to not explode and wipe the raid.
Light Rampant requires you to check how many stacks of a debuff has, and who you are tethered with, to move in a specific pattern to ensure you do not explode and wipe the raid.
Cloud of Darkness Chaotic compared to that feels a lot more reactive in some of the mechanics (line AoEs from the sides, the left/right/out AoEs, remembering what cast was stored for a later KB immunity and movement).

Hope that makes sense, all that reads like rambling to me.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

Do they still kick people from earlygame dungeons for daring to be new and not 100% perfect at every mechanic at any given time?

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No, I honestly see less drama in WoW dungeons than I do in XIV. The one thing I would say about WoW is that it's absolutely insane how fast people rage quit though. It's pretty common for 2 people to bail immediately if you wipe in a dungeon. And I'm talking about random leveling dungeons, not M+.

One of my friends is playing for the first time and he's been absolutely fine tanking dungeons as someone who has no idea what he's doing though. People have been patient with him and helped him out.

They also added something similar to trusts/duty support, so new players can practice (or just choose to do) dungeons with NPCs instead of real players.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

No, I honestly see less drama in WoW dungeons than I do in XIV. The one thing I would say about WoW is that it's absolutely insane how fast people rage quit though. It's pretty common for 2 people to bail immediately if you wipe in a dungeon.

One of my friends is playing for the first time and he's been absolutely fine tanking dungeons as someone who has no idea what he's doing though. People have been patient with him and helped him out.

They also added something similar to trusts/duty support, so new players can practice (or just choose to do) dungeons with NPCs instead of real players.

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I can second this.
People in WoW are very quick to abandon a dungeon if they wipe once.
But people in WoW has been very helpful when asked questions and like if someone's new at tanking and they might see him struggling.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

Let's be real, unless you're a hardcore player, buying Dawntrail and being subbed this last half a year probably feels like a waste of money, and there's no guarantee that anything coming in 7.2 or beyond is even meant for casual players either and they won't pull another "whoops, we made it Savage difficulty instead, teehee!"

Besides, the hardcore playerbase has it made it abundantly clear, especially with Chaotic, that they hold such casuals in complete and utter disgust and don't want such players in "their" game anyway, so might as well just let them have it then, let them hold the game up on their own instead of expecting others to keep it running for them while being spat on by community and developer alike.

And if that isn't motivation enough for you, just remember every other time "Yoshi-P said" when it came to this or that which never got implemented or fixed over 10 years, but it was all-hands-on-deck on getting every piece of hardcore content possible squeezed out within less than 6 months, even rushing to get Chaotic out by Christmas. (Early access was June 28th, 2024 and Chaotic Raids was December 24th, 2024) and STILL you are expected to wait further into 2025 for a "maybe" knowing in advance how hard they can drop the ball when expected to do something that isn't just recycling assets, as the MSQ can attest.

It goes beyond neglect, it's just contempt at this point, and we're paying for the privilege of being scorned.

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You're a casual, why are you even playing when there's no new story? Save yourself some money and unsub until 7.55 then come back and do all of the post patch content in one swoop, then wait for 8.0

Final Fantasy XIV for the Casuals for the last 11 Years:
- MSQ and the related Content have been fine tuned and sterilized with Casual players in mind to make the base game and gameplay loop as accessible as possible
- Mechanics up until DT ranged from "Dodge AoE" to "Dodge AoE from Background" with massive 20 seconds of just boss auto attacks to make story bosses as clearable as possible
- 8 Man Raids have gotten split between story and savage variants, and become just another trial series, starting with Omega just removing all semblance of actual maps. Waiting 8 months and now 10 months with the extra dev time for a four round boss rush """"Raid""""
- Glamour "Endgame" has been supported on a patch by patch basis with a constant revolving door of new glamour gear given out freely or for minimal effort
- Roulettes and the base gameplay loop makes you put in a minimum of 4 to 5 hours a week depending on role to get your weekly stuff done
- Gold Saucer and it's mini games
- Island Sanctuary for 2 entire years
- Hildibrand Questline that should've ended years ago
- Relics have been streamlined to the point it was just a free weapon upgrade by Endwalker
- Zone Restorations have been moved from a patch to patch map update to dedicated crafting and gathering zones
- Any and all non blue-side quests are done with casual players in mind
- Custom Deliveries
- PVP and a Season Pass
- People don't like Eureka so they streamlined it for Save the Queen, to make it more accessible
EDIT: - Introduced Trusts and Duty Support, making dungeons even more braindead as they now had to incorporate janky AI to work, dungeons like Castrum Abania getting done the dirtiest.
Final Fantasy XIV for the "Hardcore players" for the last 11 Years:
- Gotten a dedicated Savage mode after Coils was made for higher end players in mind starting with Alexander in 2015, with a massive learning curve for the devs on the right difficulty.
- The specific subsection of players that wanted harder content 2 years later got "Ultimate Raids" which only release 2 times per Expansion
- After years of asking for harder 4 man content, finally got Criterion and Criterion Savage 4 years after the first Ultimates came out.
- After getting a first taste of real "savage" raids in Stormblood and Shadowbringers with Baldesion's Arsenal and DRS Just got a 24 man "Savage Raid" 3 years after Shadowbringers, that is once again just a boss and for that matter one that has already been fought twice before, three times if you count E9S as separate from E9.

Final Fantasy XIV has always catered to casuals, it's entire base gameplay loop and being caters to casuals. And that's A-Okay, casuals are the constantly flowing life blood of this game. But let's not act like the devs don't care about casuals, they care more about us then we really deserve.

Don't forget neutering almost every pre-50 dungeon to be compatible with Duty Support. Though overall I think Duty Support is a positive addition to the game that actually fits everybody, because it gives you opportunity to experiment with mechanics, as well as a tutorial for them.

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Originally Posted by ClayyLmao

You're a casual, why are you even playing when there's no new story? Save yourself some money and unsub until 7.55 then come back and do all of the post patch content in one swoop, then wait for 8.0

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Well I'll tell you why that wouldn't work for me. Because by the time I come back there will be no friends, no social circle and as good as the story has been, for this gamer not even the ShB EW story arc would have been worth the money without friends I had to share the experience along the way. Not even close. Not compared to experience you get from solo games independent. BG3 vs An expansion for $35 + $15 for two months sub? Elder scrolls, or Black Myth or whatever game is now on sale Vs an expansion as a solo no friends experience?
Wouldn't stand a chance.
I'll be back if certain freinds resub for the new Bozja 'and' I either think they are 'really' going to stick at it, or if I think it's offering 'Red Choctober' levels of challenge (and plenty of it)
Otherwise nothing less that EW levels of MSQ fan hype are going to get me back to a solo game with no freinds.

It's just the mindset. You can see (in PF) some people are further along the (I dint want to be be hurtful but I don't know how else to say it) the 'sociopathic' spectrum and 'other people 'and 'connections' just aren't part of their experience, until after their own best interests are first served. (I can hear it now, "sometimes you have to be selfish" (but what they mean is "all the times you have to be selfish")