Please finally fix Tank, DPS and Healer roles SE

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Oh I'd take GNB over DRK, its kit, while not as broken as WAR, is still miles better. Hell, I'd say if not for the sustain on PLD's spells, GNB WOULD be better than PLD.

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I might, too, for its combination of value and personal enjoyment. But DRK objectively is the tank with the most parses and the most likely to have a spot reserved for it.

That said, I feel like DRK's mitigation suite is also frequently overlooked, especially considering how magic-damage heavy things have been for quite a long time now. It's... really very strong, actually, especially if/when the damage is high enough to pop TBN damn near on CD.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

It means that you can optimize a role away.

It means that in this fight, healers are a crutch, not a necessity. One third of the trinity which supposedly is made so that players have a reason to group up together, relying on the strenth of their jobs to fill in the gaps in for a well balanced team, is redundant in Current, highest end content.

Can you do the same with DPS classes? Can you optimize them away? How about tanks?

It doesn't matter that only a few people can do no-healer runs. It means that when you truly optimize your team composition to the extreme, healers are no longer necessary. It means that in order to get the most of out of this content you have to exclude a whole Role.

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No, it means really good players are really good and will always pull stuns like this because they are the exception, not the rule. 99% of the community will never be able to pull off random stuff like that.

The whole no healer TOP run argument feels like someone watching a level 1 Souls run and coming to the conclusion that the game is too easy, and so everything needs to be re-balanced so that it's impossible to beat the game at level 1. Are there issues with Tanks? Probably. Healers? Sure. Does the no healer TOP run mean as much as people think it does? Nope.

Besides, if you really want to remove these types of runs just get rid of rezzing on RDM and SMN and healers become 100% necessary.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

The whole no healer TOP run argument feels like someone watching a level 1 Souls run and coming to the conclusion that the game is too easy, and so everything needs to be re-balanced so that it's impossible to beat the game at level 1. Are there issues with Tanks? Probably. Healers? Sure. Does the no healer TOP run mean as much as people think it does? Nope.

Besides, if you really want to remove these types of runs just get rid of rezzing on RDM and SMN and healers become 100% necessary.

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Don't take my Rezes. I actually like having some sup :( Besides there is a lot of content healers are needed, and if they both die we are stuck having to wipe and that puts a lot of pressure only on healers then not wipe since they become a fail condition.

lol can't imagine why some people think healers are so necessary

probably has to do with the fact that they're so bad they need them

kekw

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I know, I know, there's already multiple discussions of healers being useless thanks to the recent TOP victory without em but its really an underlying problem with the core design of the holy trinity and its just going to continue getting worse unless the dev team finally addresses it.

Here are the main issues with them that I personally see.

Tanks: Too much mitigation and self-healing. Warriors being a prime example of this where even the most casual players can see how OP they are in normal content. We need their mitigation and healing skills to be nerfed so that it doesnt fully take away a healer's job.

Healers: This has been said for so many years but lack of diverse support and damage with healers not only makes the job very boring but also redundant taking into account how well tanks can do their job. Two possible solutions for this is to either embrace the damage meta and allow healers to have more damage buttons or do what I would prefer and nerf tanks so hard that they cant survive without both healers and dps so that healers have a reason to use all of their bloated healing abilities.

DPS: Only issue I see with them is the oversimplification in their job design. Of course this doesnt apply to every dps job but a common argument thrown around the community is their lack of unique playstyles and the awful 2-minute burst meta. We can still keep them simple to play but there needs to be some bit of flexibility.

I'm not a hardcore player nor do I fully understand the game's meta but if a filthy casual like me can notice and agree upon a lot of the gripes with the current combat design then it's a real problem. The whole point of the holy trinity roles in MMOs is to give each player a task they themselves can only do in group content. If another role is outperforming the task of another role then the trinity is broken.

Either have a tanks, healers and dps, or just make every class role-less and do like what variant/criterion/eureka/bozja does and allow every class able to do everything.

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What's the matter you can't stand SGE surviving a mob, boss & Alliance boss pull?

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

The whole no healer TOP run argument feels like someone watching a level 1 Souls run and coming to the conclusion that the game is too easy, and so everything needs to be re-balanced so that it's impossible to beat the game at level 1. Are there issues with Tanks? Probably. Healers? Sure. Does the no healer TOP run mean as much as people think it does? Nope.

Besides, if you really want to remove these types of runs just get rid of rezzing on RDM and SMN and healers become 100% necessary.

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yeah the only difference with that statement is that Dark Souls is <ahem> a single player game. Nobody is going to care if you do cheese strats or all sorts of crazy things to clear something. But this is a multiplayer game where content is done with real players, so balance is much more important in an MMO space. Why do you think we have balance changes in every patch?

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

yeah the only difference with that statement is that Dark Souls is <ahem> a single player game. Nobody is going to care if you do cheese strats or all sorts of crazy things to clear something. But this is a multiplayer game where content is done with real players, so balance is much more important in an MMO space. Why do you think we have balance changes in every patch?

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Look, if no healer TOP became the meta, I'd agree. But that run barely eke'd it out and wasn't more efficient than a run with a regular team comp. You're not going to suddenly see every PF and Static demanding no heal runs just because this one group did it. Do not take this as me defending the current state of healing in FF14, because I am not. It sucks and is bad. But the only takeaways from this happening should be, "lol that's incredible."

Edit: Or like, if the tanks and dps were actually keeping people alive the whole way through then that would also be jacked but that isn't remotely what happened here.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

Its like how recently...

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I agree with you up until your last paragraph. Namely in two ways:

1) It's hyperbole - to clear several of the solo instances, you HAVE to do more damage than "pressing one button". While most people probably get that it's a meme and not reality, enough people say it that I'm not so sure. There are a few somewhat difficult DPS check instances that can be failed if you don't have at least a decent handle on your rotation, and due to item/level sync being imposed on them, you can't just outlevel/gear them. Stuff like that final SB fight against Zenos where you also have to kill the swords relatively quickly, or in HW the one where you fight Raubahfrit (Raubahn with Ifrit's moveset; a 6.0 SMN three expansions early who also hacked in some GLD abilities). Again, I suspect you know better, but a lot of people seem not to, so it's worth harping on.

2) "throw them in the deep end" isn't a way to learn anything, really. Because it doesn't teach anything. Chunking a kid in an ocean who doesn't know how to swim and who you didn't bother teaching even the concept of swimming/floating will probably lead to drowning. At best "hard" content just leads to frustration, and at worst, a lot worse. You have to teach people before that. Job quests should actually walk people through rotations, teach oGCD use, etc. People shouldn't have to go to third party websites that are actually chat things - Discord is a HORRIBLE platform to make a wiki out of (yes yes, they have the website now, but they don't keep it nearly as up to date and it's a lot more haphazard; some of the links are still "coming soon") - to try and get useful information, especially since many people literally do not know it exists in the first place to even search for it. And it leads to this inane thing where people who read third party websites to understand their Job themselves snarkily say "all you need to do is read your tooltips, newb!" and act like that's all you need to perform your rotation well when it clearly isn't and wasn't for them, either, they just don't remember how much they once didn't know.

I would argue some of the MSQ solo stuff already has an appropriate difficulty, the game needs to teach people the actual game mechanics.

It teaches a few things - like it teaches melee combo abilities early on to any Melee/Tank/MCH (and I guess RDM, but it's been so long, I'm not sure RDM gets that help file or not...), and it teaches a 10,000 foot view of BASIC Job mechanics via gauges and those (very brief) help topics - but that's it. It doesn't talk about CDs, the difference between an oGCD and GCD, party buff alignment, party buffs at all, etc etc etc.

Those things REALLY need to be taught, imo.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

The whole no healer TOP run argument feels like someone watching a level 1 Souls run and coming to the conclusion that the game is too easy, and so everything needs to be re-balanced so that it's impossible to beat the game at level 1. Are there issues with Tanks? Probably. Healers? Sure. Does the no healer TOP run mean as much as people think it does? Nope.

Besides, if you really want to remove these types of runs just get rid of rezzing on RDM and SMN and healers become 100% necessary.

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More or less this. Your takes seem pretty rational.

People have been opposed to current Healer (seldom content, always Healer...) design for a bit now, and this is just the latest piece of ammunition they have to use against it. But the thing is, this particular piece of ammunition is a dud. The irony is, though, that as high profile as this is, it's more likely to lead to changes in either encounter design/mechanics/debuffs (at least for Ultimates) or nerfing some/all of the Jobs that made up the "dream team comp" (inb4 making Cover even worse...)

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

Look, if no healer TOP became the meta, I'd agree. But that run barely eke'd it out and wasn't more efficient than a run with a regular team comp. You're not going to suddenly see every PF and Static demanding no heal runs just because this one group did it. Do not take this as me defending the current state of healing in FF14, because I am not. It sucks and is bad. But the only takeaways from this happening should be, "lol that's incredible."

Edit: Or like, if the tanks and dps were actually keeping people alive the whole way through then that would also be jacked but that isn't remotely what happened here.

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Very much this.

The argument "Healers are broken, you don't need them even in 4 man Experts!" is one of efficiency, not need (despite the typical wording), since you can clear Lapis Manalis skipping over any role you want (I personally tested this doing 4 Tank, 4 Healer, and 4 DPS runs and clears of Lapis Manalis). The argument, when I point this out (as in these threads) becomes "Well, the most efficient is 1T/3DPS runs!"; but if we're going to argue efficiency instead of need, watching the 0 Healer TOP clear, it very clearly was NOT the most efficient, requiring extensive planning, practice, and still barely beating the party wipe. So not only is it not meta, it isn't even efficient, so it's not going to become the meta.

This clear just can't be used to justify the positions people are trying to use it to justify.

Can people argue Healers, encounter design, and/or Tanks/DPS need to be modified in general? Yes. Can they argue those things need to be modified in relation to Ultimates? Also yes. But arguing that this clear proves Healers are unnecessary in the game/bring nothing to the table/etc is just...just doesn't work.

And the irony is, the normally cited "solution" - give Healers more DPS buttons so high end Healers aren't as bored - wouldn't actually prevent this at all since the issue was the encounter not requiring sufficient and consistent healing to clear and Cover being able to cheese mechanics, not the Healer players being "bored".

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I agree with you up until your last paragraph

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And yet i still constantly run into people using single target in AOE situations, standing in mechanics, not using mitigations and role actions in the level 90 dungeons.

People do not understand the toolkits given to them, because the game makes no effort to make them useful outside of extreme and above difficulty.

If the level 90 dungeons gave you a reason to use arms length, reprisal, second wind, addle etc etc, People might actually use them on a day to day basis and become more competent in the chosen job.