Dark Knight Media Tour Feedback

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Originally Posted by Satarn

The issue is that a lot of people don't actually play jobs right and thus don't understand how they work - I don't mean they don't fully optimize, but straight up fail to utilize job mechanics. For people like this anything will "feel" good, as long as it looks good.

It seems to be SE's go-to strategy for "fixing" jobs tbh, just slap a bunch of flashy effects and people will eat it up. It's easy to see with MCH - they tried to make it more appealing in SB so they added acrobatics to every gcd while actually breaking the gameplay. With SHB again they doubled down on the flash with tools and a mecha and look at how many people suddnely wanna switch to MCH - all the while experienced MCH players already theorycraft it to not just suffer from same gameplay issues as before, but suffer from them even harder.



Part of the problem is that a lot of people giving feedback pointed out what they don't like, while failing to realize why it's an issue and not explaining it properly. Look at how many people rejoiced at the removal of DA without even thinking what it really means. SE has a tendency to remove mechanics rather than fix them, but a chunk of community really encourages that.

I've seen a lot of people asking for DA to be replaced with some burst buff like FoF or IR or complain about how DRK has to "work so much more than other tanks for the same results", so it's not so surprising they dumbed it down and made the job play more like WAR. I really wish people were more thoughtful with their feedback honestly.

Although I more wish devs used their "professional experience" to, well, know better.

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Yeah I mean when ss recovers 1/4 of what it currently does, with an mp pool almost right in line with the 10k we will be getting its clear that the potency increases from using DA are baked into a forced rotation, that we lost the choice to boost the attack(or defense in HW which i liked)
The blood gauge really felt forced and tacked on in SB despite the fact we were already maintaining a gauge in mp, so much so that the kit had to be stripped to feel mostly complete at near max level(does anyone even use SB delirium?).
But DA maintenence being gone is illusory, its just harder now to bounce back if you bottom out because the gains are 4x less
DA spam might have been annoying but the HW rendition made it both an offensive and defensive choice when planning ahead.
I wouldve liked to go back to HW but made the magic only concept a little more fair and streamlined to the other 3 tanks.
Then I wouldve wanted a fair look at living dead, and see if we couldnt get DRK some more survivability(burst lifetap), in their own themed way.
But again, never fond of the gauge to begin with.Anyway, I guess the management of darkside and blood gauge, is now just a syntax replacement to the mp management, and everyones forced to at least perform half optimally, or theyll go out of darkside and mp.(not that DS is anything to worry about, just feels tacky but unnecessary with the romaval of skills that having it on blocked like BP.)
But again, not a hardcore raider, so I didnt think we needed Fell Cleavez, rather a little more utility, and a fair invuln that works outside raids and voicechat(which the game does not provide) personally, id like to see parries work on magic as well, but thats just another gripe of mine.

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Originally Posted by shao32

At the same time I never saw ppl asking for more burst on DRK but we complaint about how WAR burst was a bit broken and how they benefic from the meta, getting inner release with all the 5.0 changes is against of all our feedback, literally they take the route of "they complaint about it we will remove it then" ignoring everything else.

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The main thing I recall regarding DRK burst was that it really didn't have a burst phase of it's own, it relied more on shifting stuff around to better line up with raid buff windows. Where WAR is all burst and PLD has fairly sustained output, DRK was just somewhere in the middle - as they seem to be in most other areas.

I'll admit, from the outside looking in Delirium always seemed like a pretty weak ability that could've served a more important purpose. I think the math worked out so it seemed like a fairly strong ability on paper (not really sure), but I don't know, it just seemed to lack any real pizzazz IMO. If they wanted to make it mechanically similar to Inner Release they should've at least done it a different way - like instead of making it "no cost" have it refund the cost after performing an action. Even a little change like that would've at least made it less obvious of an IR clone. (I'm not discounting anything else they could've done with Delirium, just something off the top of my head)

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

I wonder, is the JP community generally happy about this DRK rework, or are the DRK there discontent as well with certain concerns as we are?

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I used google translate to read some of the posts in their dark knight thread, and they appear to touch on a number of things which are being brought up in our posts. ***Google translate doesn't seem to do a great job at capturing nuanced things specific to language so alot of what I read as a direct translation didn't make sense and needed some reading between the lines.

Living dead is a weak Holmgang.

Mana generation seems low.

TBN might not break and represents risk without reward.

Someone mentions wanting the haste effect back.

Another raises a concern that defensively we aren't magically strong, we are physically weak.

HP sustain seems to be tuned abit low.

Carve and spit seems to have been significantly weakend... 200 potency and some mana for 60 second recast seems low.

Delirium seems to be a knock off Inner release.

Living Shadow doesn't seem to have any gameplay interaction.

They are saying the same things as we are.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I'll admit, from the outside looking in Delirium always seemed like a pretty weak ability that could've served a more important purpose. I think the math worked out so it seemed like a fairly strong ability on paper (not really sure), but I don't know, it just seemed to lack any real pizzazz IMO. If they wanted to make it mechanically similar to Inner Release they should've at least done it a different way - like instead of making it "no cost" have it refund the cost after performing an action. Even a little change like that would've at least made it less obvious of an IR clone. (I'm not discounting anything else they could've done with Delirium, just something off the top of my head)

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Honestly what they could do with Delirium, if they really wanted to make it feel satisfying, is to treat it as a second burst phase. Make Delirium a version that combines WAR's Inner Release, and also Infuriate. Give it the ability that any blood expending action used while under the effect of Delirium reduces the recast of Blood Weapon.
Or treat it as an opposite of Upheaval, where attacks used while under its effect gain a bonus potency scaling with missing HP.

I recognize the former would be ridiculously overpowered. But if they want to make Delirium feel rewarding to play, then MAKE IT REWARDING. Just being able to use BS/Q freely for 5 GCDs is not rewarding. IR guarantees direct / crits for any actions used while under it's effect; the act of having no gauge cost on beast gauge using abilities is not a reward in this case. Surely someone can come up with a DRK aesthetic fitting mechanic that can be applied to Delirium.

GIven the new job actions and direction, what I would have liked to see delirium is something like a fury or Omnislash type attack.

Delirium - Effect: Each attack delivered while under the effect of delirium increases speed by 10% and increases damage delivered to enemy by 5%. Duration: 12 seconds.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

Surely someone can come up with a DRK aesthetic fitting mechanic that can be applied to Delirium.

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Delirium:
Duration 10 Second
Cooldown 90 seconds
While under the effect of Delirium, HP is continuously sacrificed to double the potency of each ability used under it's effect.
Additional Effect: 100% of damage dealt is restored as HP
Additional Effect: Resources consumed by abilities are restored upon execution.

The series long tale of DRK is a HP sacrificing job. Obviously having a tank sacrifice it's HP in this game is problematic, about the only way it could be resolved is either invulnerability to prevent killing yourself, or massively OP HP regen so you recover more HP than you'd lose. In the above example I'm thinking something like each time you performed an action it would drain a bit of HP but also restore it based on the damage dealt - so hopefully it would end up being OK since obviously you're going to use to boost your hardest hitting abilities (and thus highest return heals).

It also give DRK some more sustain and acts like a secondary defensive moment, if the DRK can heal itself more than enough during that window it gives healers a bit of breathing room. Or there could be a situation where burst window lines up with Living Dead use.

IDK, seems at least a tad more interesting lol

Yoshi in hw
Drk is a veteran tank, a tank that require skilled players.
Yoshi in sb
Drk was too hard for shit players, so now darkside will no longer drain your mp, you will have no dot to maintain beside salted earth and half of your abilities were remade into crossclasses and remade worse, good bye good animations you liked.
Yoshi in shb
We heard your didn't like sb drk so we ruined even more abilities, but we finally removed the dark arts spam you didn't like, replacing it with a proc you can only do every 30s, also enjoy not-inner release and spamming nothing but 2.50gcds souleater for 80s until you can bunga bloodspiller, we could have made scourge come back as a gcd like goring to make the job slightly more interesting, but we didn't, we love souleater shit animation too much! You finally got a raid shield though be happy.
Also Yoshi
Here's gunbreaker, our newest veteran tank, a high skill tank for the high skilled players.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

The blood gauge really felt forced and tacked on in SB despite the fact we were already maintaining a gauge in mp, so much so that the kit had to be stripped to feel mostly complete at near max level(does anyone even use SB delirium?).

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What the- wha- oh my god, please tell me you're joking. SB Delirium is an important part of DRK's kit, it increases your Blood Weapon uptime by a lot and should be used as much as possible.

Blood gauge was actually implemented very well - it interacted with MP through TBN and Delirium, both in single target and AoE. Having to keep an eye on both resources and having synergy between them was part of the design and it worked great. Removal of HW skills had nothing to do with implementation of blood gauge. They all had their clear problems and SE simply chose to remove rather than rework them. It was a bad decision imo, but again, nothing to do with the gauge.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

The main thing I recall regarding DRK burst was that it really didn't have a burst phase of it's own, it relied more on shifting stuff around to better line up with raid buff windows.

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That's not an "issue" it's part of fun and identity of the job. It made DRK active and flexible. Who cares that WAR's timed burst is better for dps in most encounters(given you actually have right raid buffs timed with that burst)- it's WAR's thing to do more damage, buffing DRK could've been working more on it's already stronger self mitigation and adding utility. There's no way SE will let WAR not be ahead in damage anyways, we've already seen it in SB.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I'll admit, from the outside looking in Delirium always seemed like a pretty weak ability that could've served a more important purpose. I think the math worked out so it seemed like a fairly strong ability on paper (not really sure), but I don't know, it just seemed to lack any real pizzazz IMO. If they wanted to make it mechanically similar to Inner Release they should've at least done it a different way - like instead of making it "no cost" have it refund the cost after performing an action. Even a little change like that would've at least made it less obvious of an IR clone. (I'm not discounting anything else they could've done with Delirium, just something off the top of my head)

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No. Just don't try to make DRK play more like WAR and let it be it's own job, how about that? If somebody wants to play a timed burst job, they know where to go.
Delirium did indeed feel somewhat "flat" at first, but ultimately it plays part in MP and blood management and does it's job. There was no need to "fix" it. Not everything needs to be a flashy, huge burst button - that'd be boring.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

What the- wha- oh my god, please tell me you're joking. SB Delirium is an important part of DRK's kit, it increases your Blood Weapon uptime by a lot and should be used as much as possible.

Blood gauge was actually implemented very well - it interacted with MP through TBN and Delirium, both in single target and AoE. Having to keep an eye on both resources and having synergy between them was part of the design and it worked great. Removal of HW skills had nothing to do with implementation of blood gauge. They all had their clear problems and SE simply chose to remove rather than rework them. It was a bad decision imo, but again, nothing to do with the gauge.

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Some of the only issues with the blood gauge was that it was acquired so late (62), the first skill you got with it only worked every 120s (now 80s), the first useable skill you got from it was an AoE skill (which is no longer the case in ShB, and also had to have MP theft added to it early on to offset how SE nerfed DRK's mana economy in 4.0 (which they're removing in 5.0 because reasons)), and TBN came so late, upending the whole "sit on your blood gauge" conditioning 62-69 reinforced (less so once you obtained BS, but still).

It was clunkily implemented, but at least it had impact, unlike lilies.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

No. Just don't try to make DRK play more like WAR and let it be it's own job, how about that? If somebody wants to play a timed burst job, they know where to go.
Delirium did indeed feel somewhat "flat" at first, but ultimately it plays part in MP and blood management and does it's job. There was no need to "fix" it. Not everything needs to be a flashy, huge burst button - that'd be boring.

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Calm down now. All I was saying was that if they were going to copy it, at least change it enough to where it's not literally the exact same wordage.

Besides, you got exactly what you didn't want anyways. Direct the anger elsewhere.

Aside from that, thematically DRK has always sacrificed something of it's own to increase it's power. So it's actually more fitting for it to have burst rather than sustained damage. Having a burst doesn't mean it's a Warrior clone - or that would make virtually every job with a burst phase a Warrior clone. Think about what you are saying for a second. "Not everything needs to be a flashy, huge burst button" we aren't talking about EVERYTHING - we are talking about 1 button, you know, the one button that's supposed to make you feel like an awesome DRK lol.