Tank Stance Redesign

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Defiance is fun when and only when you survive as a result of sacrificing your own damage. It's a balance, a compromise, and a bit of a gamble until the fight is wholly known, from which you are trying to cheat out a greater-than-sum equilibrium. That's what makes either stance interesting -- because the other exists. Defiance allows for powerful tools, but comes at a cost. Minimizing that, coming nearer and nearer the event horizon, is what makes Deliverance entertaining. It's not the Fell Cleaves. They entertain as well as they can only when held in contrast to each other.

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but is in esence the same rule as the other 2 specially since the other 2 are more punished for it, the question was why WAR in particular is boring on defiance when the job dont change at all, not about the whole thing about optimize you dps stance and how rewarding feels bcs thats pretty clear and i agree with it.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

If going from 4200 to 3600 kills the job for you, you didn't like the job in the first place.

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I already don't play tanks because I don't enjoy the role. So, you're right that removing even more from the role would make me less inclined to play them. But my point was more about MeriAngel's comment towards healers losing the ability to deal damage at all. Hence why I bolded the word "healers". So I'd suggest you pay closer attention to things you respond to before you respond to them.

I play healers frequently, and in all types of content. And I enjoy the job when I'm allowed to juggle healing and damage-dealing because I'm always busy doing something. The multi-tasking is fun for me. Taking away my ability to deal damage would kill the fun for me. All because some people think, "A healer should only heal". This game doesn't have enough outgoing damage to warrant such a playstyle, not even in the hardest content. Standing around doing absolutely nothing for 80% or more of a dungeon or 50% of a trial or Savage raid is incredibly boring.

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Originally Posted by shao32

but is in esence the same rule as the other 2 specially since the other 2 are more punished for it, the question was why WAR in particular is boring on defiance when the job dont change at all, not about the whole thing about optimize you dps stance and how rewarding feels bcs thats pretty clear and i agree with it.

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No one said Defiance itself was or would be dull. They said being limited to JUST Defiance would be incredibly dull, just as SITTING in Defiance is now.

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Originally Posted by shao32

The whole conception of if a tank stay on defensive stance allow healers to push more dps is wrong in all terms, you are free to check any fflogs and see the top healers have tanks with zero or near zero tank stance uptime, healers heals are to powerful as tanks mitigation tools and if both use they tools properly both tank and healer are able to push high dps, the DPS tank meta don't come at the cost of anything at contrary the turtle strat.

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It is just something I have found after tanking for so long. Maybe at the highest level this is true but for more casual players it really helps inexperienced healers in more stressful situations and allows them to improve with putting out some damage too.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

No one said Defiance itself was or would be dull. They said being limited to JUST Defiance would be incredibly dull, just as SITTING in Defiance is now.

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my question was why its gonna being dull if mechanically the job dont change at all, same buttoms same everything just less overall dps and more mitigation that you need, i ask that bcs im a person that enjoy the jobs for his gameplay not his numbers.

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Originally Posted by Kyrph

It is just something I have found after tanking for so long. Maybe at the highest level this is true but for more casual players it really helps inexperienced healers in more stressful situations and allows them to improve with putting out some damage too.

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im being tank since 2.1 war rework, as my own experience this 5 years show me the skill of the healer is irrelevant for non savage content, if i have proper gear and use my job tools properly i can stand anything bcs outside of savage everything hit like a wet noodle, if a healer is having troubles to keep me up i highly doubt they will have the skill to push some dps bcs they will strugle on everything else.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Unfortunately, this can only happen with a fairly significant philosophy change. The devs would have accept outgoing damage is simply too low while tanks, and healers especially, have far too many options at their disposal to mitigate the damage we do see. Content as a whole would need to encourage defensive play through sheer damage and mechanical necessity, which has the indirect effect of making things more difficult for inexperienced players. With Stormblood's shift to a more simplistic approach, I cannot see them do a 180 come 5.0. Which is somewhat ironic given how much they seem to dislike our aggressive playstyle.

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I agree that it would take a lot of work, but I don't think it would be insurmountable. There's plenty of measures they could take to ease the transition and avoid punishing inexperienced players too much. I just really hope this game gets there at some point, if not in 5.X then in 6.X

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I already don't play tanks because I don't enjoy the role. So, you're right that removing even more from the role would make me less inclined to play them. But my point was more about MeriAngel's comment towards healers losing the ability to deal damage at all. Hence why I bolded the word "healers". So I'd suggest you pay closer attention to things you respond to before you respond to them.

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Why would healers lose the ability to do damage?

They didn't say anything about restructuring the majority of the game, just 'taking away dps'.

Losing damage isn't the same as doing 0 damage. It's just stated the current division (average) of 66 /22/11 might be too generous in their favor.

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Originally Posted by shao32

my question was why its gonna being dull if mechanically the job dont change at all, same buttoms same everything just less overall dps and more mitigation that you need, i ask that bcs im a person that enjoy the jobs for his gameplay not his numbers.

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Okay, but... numbers generate gameplay.

Do you dislike current Warrior gameplay, because it doesn't often enough encourage frequent enough or long enough uses of Defiance?

If not -- if you enjoy the gameplay -- that is the gameplay the numbers have created. Tuning is part of gameplay. It doesn't bar options entirely, but it does have a heavy-handed influence on the when and where of each.

The discussion about whether tanks should use defensive stances when tanking is a digression.

The question to ask is this: if the devs were to completely remove stances from tanks next expansion, what would it change? I think you'd see a narrowing in the difference between low and average tank dps. You'd see a lot of awkward stance related issues removed from PLD and DRK. That's pretty much it.

If you'd asked me back in Heavensward, I would have said that this is a bad idea. Now that I've seen healers function post Cleric Stance, I can't say that we'd miss stances any more than they did. The implementation is just clunky in this game.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Okay, but... numbers generate gameplay.

Do you dislike current Warrior gameplay, because it doesn't often enough encourage frequent enough or long enough uses of Defiance?

If not -- if you enjoy the gameplay -- that is the gameplay the numbers have created. Tuning is part of gameplay. It doesn't bar options entirely, but it does have a heavy-handed influence on the when and where of each.

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probably my fault to dont formulate the question properly.

the endless comparation of tank stance vs dps stance performance its what bring us here i agree with that, im not asking why tank stances feels awful to play i know that by first hand, thats why im a cleary supported of removing it or rework it complety, again the question is why WAR, the job with less punishment mechanically and with the stronger tank stance of the game it feels in particular boring when is locked on defiance when DRK and PLD are just worse in everything, what make it particulary boring compared to the others when nothing changes except your numbers like the other 2.