DPS frustration

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Originally Posted by Sacred_Nym

What this thread is teaching me is that anyone who isn't max geared i340 doing 100th percentile damage should be kicked from Susano/Laksmi.

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It's best not to internalize anything from the forums too deeply imo. Nearly all the threads are made and replied to by the same couple hundred people, so it's not an accurate picture of the community as a whole. In-game most people are pretty chill.

To the OP though, try to separate the criticism from the way it's given. Sometimes good advice is given harshly and if you ignore it to spite the person giving it to you, you won't get anywhere. If you're serious about being a better BLM, watch a video on the Stormblood BLM rotation and practice the rotation in the video until it's muscle memory, then run dungeons to practice accounting for movement mid-rotation.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

"No job is easier than another" is innacurate, or at the very least unproveable. my own experience shows I can tank and do decent dps (for a tank) far more easily while holding aggro and not dying. This would indicate tanking is easier. It might not explain the large number of awful tanks however.

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This doesn't mean tanking is easier.
This means tanking is easier for you.

In order to show that tanking (or, anything) is specifically easier... you would have to show that significantly more people can reach an "elite level" with tanking than they are able to reach an "elite level" with the other classes. (If more people can do it on average... then it would be "easier.")

Is this information available?

I think FFLogs pretty much shows that all jobs can perform at an elite level about as good as any other.
I think they also show a fairly even distribution between the different classes and between "average" and "elite" status in each? But I'm not sure.

Historically, this game has had an incredible level of balance across all jobs.
There's always been a job or two that can be min/maxed to show an increase in value... but that increase is not very significant. It's generally the same kind of "increase" that can be gained by getting lucky with Crits or other random mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Sacred_Nym

What this thread is teaching me is that anyone who isn't max geared i340 doing 100th percentile damage should be kicked from Susano/Laksmi.

Is this message you guys really want to be sending? There's a very fine line between expecting decent play and expecting literal perfection and I feel like it's crossed way too much.

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Where are you getting that from? As I recall no one said anything like that. Like, what? There's people trying to help OP and there's people mad at OP for saying their jobs/roles are "easy".
/think

Comes down to the class and the playstyle and how you blend into that.

Some people do disgusting DPS on BLM, I never could, wasn't that great at it. Monk though, I can pound out some numbers, RDM too, but RDM is easy mode. To me, tanking, healing, and dpsing is all very easy at least to the bare minimum of your class, you just have to practice your rotations and positioning because it's widely different between almost every class.

Basic rotation (Sharpcast):

B3 > (Enochian if it's off) > B4 > T3 > Foul > F3 > F4 > F4 > Sharpcast > F1 > F4 > F4 > Firestarter > F4 > F4 > to standard rotation

Basic rotation (Standard):

B3 > (Enochian if it's off) > B4 > T3 > Foul > F3 > F4 > F4 > F4 > F1 > F4 > F4 > (Firestarter) > F4 > to Sharpcast rotation

Basic opener:

B3 > Enochian > B4 > T3 > (Foul if ready from a previous encounter) > Ley Lines > F3 > Triplecast > F4 > F4 > F4 > Sharpcast > F1 > F4 > F4 > F4 > Firestarter > Convert > F4 > F4 > to standard rotation

(There are various more specific openers floating around for different situations, but this one works for most.)

Alternate back and forth between the Sharpcast and standard rotations as Sharpcast becomes available again.

Use Swiftcast or Triplecast to fit a Thundercloud into the standard rotation if necessary, to facilitate movement, or just for a DPS gain if no mechanics are coming soon.

Use Ley Lines on cooldown, but watch your Foul timer so you don't outrun it.

The Umbral Ice phase is flexible; you can move spells around as long as you never wait for an MP tick after B3, and never end the phase on a hardcast T3 (a Thundercloud is fine).

If you're having trouble casting the standard rotation (without procs) without using Triplecast, you need to stack more Spell Speed.

The opener given here is very flexible; move Triplecast wherever needed to get through early-fight movement. Place Ley Lines strategically and minimize movement time with Between the Lines and Aetherial Manipulation. If you get a Thundercloud proc, use it as late as possible without letting Thunder fall off, and move the F4s around so the grouping that contains the Thundercloud only has two F4s.

If all else fails, use Transpose or bail out of the rotation early with the opposing tier III spell. Saving Enochian and the Foul timer are your top priority.

AoE is (B3 > Enochian) > T4 > B4 > F3 > Flare > Flare > (Convert > Flare) > Transpose > repeat from T4. Throw Foul in anywhere it won't kill your timer. Simple but very effective.

Stolen from reddit

Here's the thing though - you claim that healer and tank are easier roles (which they may very well be), but the best of the best are still going to be trying to max out their DPS on those roles in addition to their main duties.

At least on DPS, you only have to focus on that?

Maybe give RDM a try? It's got a pretty simple rotation, and isn't the worst DPS (at least I don't think it is...).

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Originally Posted by Sacred_Nym

What this thread is teaching me is that anyone who isn't max geared i340 doing 100th percentile damage should be kicked from Susano/Laksmi.

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You know, on forum everyone have o4s on farm but when reality check hits, it comes out only about 5% (or less) really done it. That's the Internet.

I've still o2s in learning, trying down it with pugs so you know how hard is it. But the primals ex, you really can do them with i300 average, they are not hard dps checks but more mechanics handling, you fail them only because you get people dying on every little thing, quite often.

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Originally Posted by Cold_Raven

In order to show that tanking (or, anything) is specifically easier... you would have to show that significantly more people can reach an "elite level" with tanking than they are able to reach an "elite level" with the other classes.

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There's several issues with that assumption.
You focus entirely on the skill ceiling and ignore the skill floor and everything in between.
This leads to two big issues.
First, "elite level" is relative. If everyone could perform at an elite level, that level would no longer be elite, but the average. Average is average for a reason. The average performance would simply shift upwards.

Second, it means that even if you could be a functional (i.e. able to clear the content) tank/healer with very little skill and would require tons of skill to be a functional DPS in the same content, you'd still proclaim them equally difficult by your criterion because there's still room to go above and beyond towards the "elite" level.

And then there's a third issue that comes with using FFlogs as reference: By comparing DPS numbers for tanks/healers and DPS, you are technically not looking at the performance of the role for the first two anymore. You already take that for granted and only look at how much you can excel beyond that. That already implicitly assumes that tanking and healing is trivial on its own, whereas DPSing is not. As a matter of fact, if you use DPS as criterion for tank/healer mastery, the difficulty of those roles lies in not overdoing the tanking/healing, which again implies a lack of difficulty in tanking/healing as such. And if that's not the criterion you use, well... I'm not sure how helpful FFlogs is.

By using FFlogs, you are also muddling class mastery with encounter mastery, gear and teamcomp. Believe it or not, people who don't die do more DPS and not dying isn't a matter of whether you can play your job, it's a matter of whether you learned the encounter. The parse of the healer that doesn't need to raise the DPS is going to look a lot more impressive as well.

There's too many issues with that criterion.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Honestly it is pointless to get upset about which jobs some people find easier or harder than others to play.

Everyone is different and it is just all opinions and not worth getting pissed about.

I find DRG hard...well I don't know if hard is the word more like I can't play it well because the rotation feels awkward to me makes me feel ADHD, but my boyfriend finds it easy and he likes it. /shrug

I prefer MNK and I feel like it is easier to play than DRG, but my boyfriend says he feels MNK is harder to play than DRG for him. So it's whatever.

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Totally agree with you and this is a good point. Imo this also depends on what level you want to play those classes. For example, healing is easy to get into, but if you want to work with your co-healer together and make an "fifth dps" worth of dmg together, then it gets difficult. To be honest, optimising is hard for every class, but imo it is just a bit harder for healers to do, since we have to not only rely on our co-healer, but the group in general to mitigate dmg when we ask them to and plan out most if not all of the fights. Other roles plan out stuff aswell, but imo it is a bit less relient on the whole group.

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Originally Posted by MyaValentine

I'm sorry but currently doing 2.4-2.7 Is average healer dps top healers are dishing out 3k damage, and dps are coming up in the 6k your dps as of this moment should as a tank on the 3k mark.

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Is this your opinion or an fact? If it is the latter, than you are wrong about 2,4-2,7k being "average healer dps".

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

We musn't forget that this is a game, and although I don't like people making little of the work of others, I understand that your comment was made under a bad mood, so it doesn't matter. But please, if you really want to go BLM... Go, mate. You'll get better, by yourself, or by asking directly for help. Believe me, we're seen as a bad community because of irrelevant jerks such as myself that react impulsively, but deep down, many of us in the community want to help others.

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Couldn't have said it better. The community is imo better than in other games and very helpfull most of the time. You just have to ask and/or provide an video so people can actually help you. In general, the first thing you should do as an dd is train the opener and rotation at a dummy for hours. After that comes the fight specific optimisation (increase uptime, decrease movement as caster, ....) and then you should worry about your group and plan out buffs (outside of the opener, because the opener should already be adjusted for the group in the beginning), to push dmg even further.

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Originally Posted by era1Ne

Totally agree with you and this is a good point. Imo this also depends on what level you want to play those classes. For example, healing is easy to get into, but if you want to work with your co-healer together and make an "fifth dps" worth of dmg together, then it gets difficult. To be honest, optimising is hard for every class, but imo it is just a bit harder for healers to do, since we have to not only rely on our co-healer, but the group in general to mitigate dmg when we ask them to and plan out most if not all of the fights. Other roles plan out stuff aswell, but imo it is a bit less relient on the whole group.

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Yeah, I can understand your opinion on that.

The average player skill in this game I think is quite good though usually. Most people play quite decently so it -usually- isn't a too much harder for healers to at least attempt to optimize, but it does happen sometimes that playing healer ends up harder due to other players making mistakes or playing very sub-optimal.

Other roles also can be a bit harder to optimize too though depending on the group. DPS rely on tanks to position mobs and bosses properly and also depend on healers to heal them through damage or mistakes. Tanks also rely on healers to heal them properly and rely on DPS to use aggro deduction when needed so that it is safe for the tank to DPS some without worrying about losing hate.

Most players are quite good at the game though usually at least at max level. Understandably lower levels the skill level is more skewed since people are more new to the game or roles.

In general making a "fifth dps" worth of damage between two healers isn't something most people expect in normal content. In savage though...I mean it is the goal to at least try for, but I can attest it isn't easy to do and I wouldn't expect every healer duo to be able to do it even in savage. Sometimes you just have to just do whatever DPS you can contribute and try not to overdo it if you notice people get a bit too close to dying.


Also yeah Mya is wrong about 2.4-2.7 being "average" healer DPS. That is definitely above average, while top tier 3k+ is extremely above average.