SAM out classing all other DPS

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Originally Posted by Nominous

DRG was considered the 'pure' DPS that offered nothing in 2.0, and was relatively unpopular (for other reasons as well).

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Except 2.0 DRG was the weakest dps in 2.0 and when 2.4 came out it was much clearer to see since it was much weaker than the other 2 melee while taking more magic damage and having no utility. Until 2.45 DRG was a massive screw up.

Its proof the the development team don't always know what they are doing and that's why the feedback is important. The consensus of at least 1000 people (despite how ill informed they can be) is still most likely more correct than that of a development team who judge themselves by their intentions.

Yoshida will say stuff like 'the class is fine, git gud' only to find that the job was subsequently buffed. Samurai probably wont get nerfed, but the 3 melee dps do need a buff or we will be looking at a magic based meta this tier. Samurai is fine but the issue comes from the relative dps. Most people are comparing them to the other 3 melee which is where the issue comes in. Especially DRGs, the gap is quite large and even though the 'meta' favours synergy, not a lot of people want to be the support and want to be the 'main character' dps.

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Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo

Why are they all below the casters except samurai? RDM and SMN also provide pretty good utility in the form of embolden and devotion not to mention they both get raises and rdm has a nice heal. They are also fairly mobile compared to BLM and lack the positionals or fairly precarious play style of a melee dps which is typically why melee dps had the edge in damage.

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I'm still of the mindset that RDM is the Job people should keep their eye on most, and that's the most scary DPS in the expansion currently. DPS values of SAM are nuts, but RDM has the potential to really shake things up in a big way.

And yes, it's why I said there were other factors playing a part with DRG being considered terrible. I was a DRG since Heavy Thrust wouldn't apply without the positional requirement. Ohhhhh I was there, unfortunately. Kept with it though. It was how DRG was viewed, still. I don't really count NIN in on that, because they promptly buffed DRG's Full Thrust combo to be stronger right after NIN was released. Not to mention, NIN's numbers were only higher out of the (probably oversight) that they could skip a whole combo tree with WAR maintaining the slashing buff.

Either way, we could forget all of that and just break it down like this.

Jobs with no raid utility, which has only ever been DRG, and MNK at this point (even though MNK definitely always had Mantra) have went on to receive it in future patches. And it was in effort to make them more attractive to a party, because without it, people just don't care about what small benefit you might bring on your own. They want to feel it too.

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Originally Posted by Nominous

We'll have to see. Though, in the grand scheme of things, I really don't think balancing fights to enable use of niche Jobs or tools is much better. I mean, they did that to specifically cater to DRK, and that was... not exactly fair, even if it was to encourage people to play the new Job.

In any case, SAM doesn't even have a CC option outside of cross role, so it's as bare bones as it gets and still wouldn't compete in the same sense that MNK might find use. Unfortunately, unless they plan on drastically changing one of their abilities, literally all SAM has is damage.

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DRK was only catered to by hybrid fights, though. What it gained in reliable defensives versus magic it lost in RNG defensives and counteroffensives, and vice versa.

Just to take a spitball example, though, imagine if Third Eye was actually significant, albeit at Kenki cost.

Third Eye: guarantees that you will parry all incoming physical damage, to a maximum absorption of 15% of the Samurai's max HP. While active, the Samurai can use Hissatsu: Gyoten to dash to an ally and duplicate the effect to them while within 5 yalms (effect cap pool shared), or Hissatsu: Shinten to reduce the physical damage an enemy deals (again, to a shared effect cap pool).

Its primary use would probably be added extraction mobility, but it'd leave additional options open, with no tremendous change to the job's gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Just to take a spitball example, though, imagine if Third Eye was actually significant, albeit at Kenki cost.

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If only they had as creative minds as to do something like that. But they really don't. I want to believe, but... I don't know if I can, when I see how they approach things sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Nominous

I'm still of the mindset that RDM is the Job people should keep their eye on most, and that's the most scary DPS in the expansion currently. DPS values of SAM are nuts, but RDM has the potential to really shake things up in a big way.

And yes, it's why I said there were other factors playing a part with DRG being considered terrible. I was a DRG since Heavy Thrust wouldn't apply without the positional requirement. Ohhhhh I was there, unfortunately. Kept with it though. It was how DRG was viewed, still. I don't really count NIN in on that, because they promptly buffed DRG's Full Thrust combo to be stronger right after NIN was released. Not to mention, NIN's numbers were only higher out of the (probably oversight) that they could skip a whole combo tree with WAR maintaining the slashing buff.

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I think you quoted the wrong part which might make it seem out of context, but DRG was my first class aswell, got it to 50 august the 31st on my original account. I didn't even use heavy thrust until titan HM because I thought it didn't work. Jump used to last like 2-3 seconds and full thrust was only 300 potency while missing impulse drive meant no combo. Ooooh I also remember it bro, I only stopped playing DRG in 2.2 because a static needed a MNK for t9 but I will never forget how bad DRG was even if I liked the class itself (that being said it was the class I got the nexus on so I never truly stopped playing it, just not for raids)

But I agree with your point though, they always eventually add utility to the non utility class (which imo is the definition of homogenization) but the problem is the gaps are getting bigger and bigger and everyone wants to have the big epeen which is where some of the salt is coming from.

I will reiterate: as much as I'm not a fan of a class that is going to be popular anyway (weeb fanbase) being the 'main character dps' class, samurai is current fine and doesn't require any changes. However RDM and SMN should not be stronger than MNK and NIN and definitely not as far ahead as they are of DRG.

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Originally Posted by BelraugFire

Smn has been replaced by red mage in aoe department so they are down there too.

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Not at lvl70 they're not. BLM & SMN have the best aoe of the ranged classes, and RDM has the lowest parse of the casters. So idunno where you're getting ''smn is down there''.

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Originally Posted by BelraugFire

Again I want to hear everyone's view on the subject not these, "you haven't played it so your word is meaningless" crap.

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Simply put, people have been giving you their views, and further more, if someone asks you if you've played the class all the way to max level and did end game content, it is a valid question, and if you keep avoiding the question by not answering, you are only hurting your own position cause it makes you sound like you have no answer cause you've not played the class long enough, ergo it will sound like you have no clue what you are talking about and are just upset because something out damages something you like. If this is the case then you NEED to get over it, throughout all MMO history there have been some classes that just have way more damage then others, but they sacrifice alot just for that.

Samurai is clearly a class that follows the ideaology of High Risk High Gain because they do such high amounts of damage but this comes at the price of them having practically NO self sufficiency. If they nerf Samurai's damage then they will have to give them better self sufficiency to compensate, which might mean adding new abilities, and this is clearly not what they want for the class, so let it go.

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Originally Posted by Ootarion

Samurai is clearly a class that follows the ideaology of High Risk High Gain because they do such high amounts of damage but this comes at the price of them having practically NO self sufficiency. If they nerf Samurai's damage then they will have to give them better self sufficiency to compensate, which might mean adding new abilities, and this is clearly not what they want for the class, so let it go.

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Self sufficiency? They scarcely use TP, require Rescue-ing less than most, and have access to the same self-healing as any other melee (aside from DRG's LS-FT), which is more than any other DPS group. If anything, they are the job that is currently least dependent on group buffs to perform competitively, although also benefiting most from said buffs. They have very, very high self-sufficiency...

Wouldn't High Risk - High Gain be more alike to a job with a more intricate rotation (if any still exist), or that stands to lose more (ease of) DPS from mechanics unless preparing accordingly?

I don't see the problem with a class that has the hardest time maximising DPS not being nearly as good DPS-wise as the highest DPS(sam), which is super easy to maximise DPS on

PS. why are people saying Sam has 0 raid utility? do they not know what role actions are? or what a slashing debuff is?

Just to put things into perspective: brd can pull 4000+ dps in sss. Mnk almost 4500. Brd brings a ton of utility and now mnk has some nice utility/sinergy as well. If they make sam dps any lower, we will have another useless job for raid progression like mnk was in 3.x.