How would they fix PLD 4.0?

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Originally Posted by shao32

barrier effects or get overpower like scholar ones or get pretty useless on combat like stoneskin

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Regen is a really weak proactive mitigation, which is the whole point of PLD. Stoneskin is a good spell, but does very litte when the situation is already risky. Having Clemency covering both healing and mitigation could be really powerful.

On a sidenote, I'd make the barrier from Clemency stack with Galvanize by being the same status as Divine Veil (Thus, not stacking with Divine Veil). Again, it could offer powerful GCD mitigation...but that's not a problem. PLD is supposed to do that, and keep in mind that Clemency still uses a GCD and interrupts combo, reducing your own DPS...but allowing others to do more damage (MT staying out of tank stance, a DPS able to eat an AoE to stay at close range, etc...)

Hell, I still think Block could be a GCD action without any real balance issue...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

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yeah of course but looking of today for example that upgrade become useless in term of mitigation, with being so focus on DPS and the actual power of the healers and the sch/ast shields, if paladin is MT is still have the problem of get cast interrup getting more dps lose for just a shield that a healer can put on you more easy and lose less dps that paladin, and if we go to the OT side storm path is still better that clemency in that field plus all the dps war brings.

i dont say is a bad idea more when looks like paladins go to lose stoneskin with the battle system revamp, but many changes need to be done to make that clemency being more usefull, like adding a surecast to paladin for the MT spot yeah can work very nice, idk is hard to imagine a change like that without knowing what they go to do, in the actual status i see that dont go to change much the status of the paladin, but in a scenario where healers lose healing power, boses hit with more sustancial damage an less raw damage and less dps checks then yeah i can see that clemency very powerfull, i say regens bcs no mather the path devs go to follow in the expansion that buff can adapt, but yeah thinking about it still gets the same problems in the MT spot with the shield version, but can be a better gain bcs can be on more longer.

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Originally Posted by shao32

yeah of course but looking of today for example that upgrade become useless in term of mitigation, with being so focus on DPS and the actual power of the healers and the sch/ast shields, if paladin is MT is still have the problem of get cast interrup getting more dps lose for just a shield that a healer can put on you more easy and lose less dps that paladin, and if we go to the OT side storm path is still better that clemency in that field plus all the dps war brings.

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The idea is not to push WAR away, but offering a strategic use of PLD as an OT. A PLD OT could cast Clemency on a WAR MT without fearing interruption, allowing the WAR to skip even more Defiance uptime.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

The idea is not to push WAR away, but offering a strategic use of PLD as an OT. A PLD OT could cast Clemency on a WAR MT without fearing interruption, allowing the WAR to skip even more Defiance uptime.

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i dont mean push WAR away (even if they deserve it), all tanks deserve being played, just point that upgrade in the current meta and the current status of healers dont go to solve nothing saddly, players want DPS, just that dps dps and more dps, adding more mitigation tools to paladin for others like that yeah can be fit by how paladin is and all that stuff, im agreed, but ppl go to still choosing the best comb for more dps for know, a extra shield dont go to make ppl sacrifice DPS when the actual healers can shield you and top you in seconds whitout any effort.

but lets say its happen what you say, PLD OT become desirable thanks to that clemency, this only go to change PLD place with the DRK, WAR is better MT by mitigation and utility, and DRK OT sucks by now changing PLD for DRK in this threat, i feel they need to focus PLD with DRK in the MT role, making both universal utility (dps) equal and keep they own str and weaknes improving the MT status with more rewarding mechanics, this of course if we get another tank how by desing shine more in the OT spot like WAR and have a balance of 2 vs 2.

i dont belive giving such mechanic is good for a 8 man party, actual healers are doing nothing excep DPS most of the time, adding that just go to make players go 2 tanks 5 dps 1 healer, like i say that skill effect can only work in a scenario where you dont want to break the number of role members in a party and the overall healer vs bosses status is change making that "extra" heal shield worthy and helpfull.

While PLD needs more OT abilities, one thing I would like to focus on with PLD, is how its playstyle is pretty much "sit back and observe" rotation simplicity.
But I'd like to keep it, while improving it.

An example would be a mitigation thats on a relatively short CD (once a min) and its potency and duration are based on your current HP.
If you HP is above 80% its duration is 10s, and its 1% dmg mitigation.
if your HP is above 40% (Below 80%)its 20s duration, for 2% dmg mitigation.
if you HP is above 20% (below 40%)its 5% mitigation for 10s.
if below 10% its 20% mitigation for 6 seconds.
if below 5% its 30% for 15seconds. (optimal, but unreasonable to attempt)

Along with a similar improvement with Spirits within. Silence always happens, but the dmg multiplier really relies on being high HP.
Anything below 75% is lowest possible potency.

in general, this should help some ppl have something to maximize on PLD, who feel ist boring, but also make PLD seem ok still even if they like the more lazy play style.
(This actually feels more like a DRK mechanic, but since PLD already has spirits within...)

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Hell, I still think Block could be a GCD action without any real balance issue...

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I think there would definitely be a balance issue if the same meta / mindset carries into Stormblood, but short of that, I too would love to see skillful on-demand blocking from GLDs/PLDs.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I think there would definitely be a balance issue if the same meta / mindset carries into Stormblood, but short of that, I too would love to see skillful on-demand blocking from GLDs/PLDs.

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hmm maybe tie it into bulwark? IDK I like the idea of giving PLD more spells, I fear that the role-cross skills might devolve its identity then i remember clemency is vastly superior to cure and DV is pretty much Stoneskin, with that utility after recieving a heal which could definitely be adjusted to spread like deployment tactocs fpr sch without taking its effect off the PLD?

Wasn't it shown that Sword Oath PLD was extremely competitive as OT now after the buffs? The problem with PLD is that their DPS as MT is *FAR* below DRK and WAR. As OT though, they're pretty on par. The dps gain from Sword Oath is huge -- you won't see big numbers like WAR or DRK, but the autoattack potency adds up.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Wasn't it shown that Sword Oath PLD was extremely competitive as OT now after the buffs? The problem with PLD is that their DPS as MT is *FAR* below DRK and WAR. As OT though, they're pretty on par. The dps gain from Sword Oath is huge -- you won't see big numbers like WAR or DRK, but the autoattack potency adds up.

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I (and many) feel that PLD was already better as OT. OT to me is WAR>PLD>DRK. If a DRK is not getting attacked it loses blood price, reprisal, and low blow procs.

PLD plays like a "classic" tank; lots of mitigation tools, a little healing, more defensive abilities than the other two tanks. I've seen good numbers out of PLD MT stance dancing but yeah, its still lower than DRK. But if they equalized DPS among the three tanks in the MT role I don't think that would be good for balance either.

WAR sure owns the OT spot. I guess with three tanks even if one is the strongest MT (but worst OT), another the strongest OT (but worst MT), the other tank doing both "OK" isn't going to leave many players happy. I'm sure the answer is tough.

I almost promise 4.0 will give PLD a decent AoE attack though.

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Originally Posted by shao32

I dont mean push WAR away (even if they deserve it), all tanks deserve being played, just point that upgrade in the current meta and the current status of healers dont go to solve nothing saddly, players want DPS, just that dps dps and more dps

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Here's the catch. Parties want more DPS. If you have a job with poor personal DPS but with such group utility that it pushes other's DPS, you can take it in a DPS party. And when you look at what's the dreadest part of tanking when you focus on DPS, you see that it's "having to use tank stance". PLD's role as an OT would be to act as the MT "tank stance".

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Originally Posted by shao32

but lets say its happen what you say, PLD OT become desirable thanks to that clemency, this only go to change PLD place with the DRK

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You'll also need to make DRK more desirable as an OT. The idea I had for DRK is to have party leech abilities, reducing the need for BRD's song or MCH's turrets thus, allowing them to keep their DPS at full power more. For example, I'd give Sole Survivor a higher uptime and, if you use it out of Grit, hitting the target will refill the attacker's TP.

If you want to keep DRK and PLD as the MT type, you have to keep WAR as the OT type, which is a really big problem, since you can end with two WAR in a DF setup.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I think there would definitely be a balance issue if the same meta / mindset carries into Stormblood, but short of that, I too would love to see skillful on-demand blocking from GLDs/PLDs.

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I don't see how. By having GCD block, you'd just have to chose wether you want to deal damage, or reduce them.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Wasn't it shown that Sword Oath PLD was extremely competitive as OT now after the buffs? The problem with PLD is that their DPS as MT is *FAR* below DRK and WAR. As OT though, they're pretty on par.

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Yes, as personal DPS, SwO PLD is not bad. But it loses so much of its utility that, if for some reason your WAR is the MT, you'd better have a DRK as an OT.