How would you feel if they scrapped the current "classes"?

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Originally Posted by Demacia

There were enough. I saw more variety with the subjob system than I do with the armory system.

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I recognise the armory system isn't perfect when it comes to diversity, hence my repeated sentiments on the subject.

On topic: I don't think they should scrap the original classes, I think they need to help facilitate people to create a variety of defined roles within those class boundaries.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

I'm sorry but there weren't very many viable combinations. Try getting into a party as a WAR/BLM.

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Hahaha! Now this is a no shit true story.......I really did one time go into the party AS a WAR/BLM..........I ended up casting Poison and Bio to help DoT the mob and keep his attack from one shotting that Tarutaru ninja. Hahahaha! Plus it was a free warp when the party ended!

Now, seriously. Now as stated in my previous topics I'm all for a unique perspective on the class system. However, what you're saying is the complete opposite in it making the class unique. Either way you look at it, it'll always become one of two classes. DoW or DoM. That's it. Down the line when people rank up to the max, they'll make a list of the best abilities and stats, and people will copy those down and that's the end of the class being unique. As I said before in one of these threads, it's going to turn into Diablo II when everyone chose Paladin for the Holy Hammer technique.

With FFXI's job system, even though there were typical sub jobs for certain jobs, we still had a variety. You didn't just see all Black Mage's because they did the best damage, but could also heal like a son of a bitch when it came with /whm. The auto-mp refresh SE just implemented just put one more kick to the groin as far as this one goes. That was RDM's purpose! To assist in healing and refreshing, not to mention debuffing the enemy!

Again I'm not saying bring back XI, but rather be influenced by it's diversity. It may have had a limit, but it was(and still is in my opinion) far more diversified than XIV is right now.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

Actually, FFXI players all ended up the same because the subjob system accommodated around two main/sub combos max. What I mean is, every WAR/NIN was the same. Every BLM/SMN was the same. Every SMN/WHM was the same

Anyway, I agree that they need to shuffle some things in the armory system around and also help diversify the potential outcomes of the system.

On topic: I don't think they should scrap the original classes, I think they need to help facilitate people to create a variety of defined roles within those class boundaries.

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While I agree with you, the problem is that the armory system won't prevent that. Right now the game is still recent but in the long run i have no doubt that a similar thing will happen in XIV. For exemple thm will probably be expected to level conjurer to learn spell like protect and raise. A gladiator to level marauder for defender. DDs to get feint, raging strike and ferocity, etc. Of course you could decide that you want to use spell with your gladiator, but in party other players will probably tell you not to do that.

The thing is that once a game has been out for long enough, the "best" builds are found by the community and everyone is expected to use one of them. Armory system or job system, it won't matter.

As for scrapping the current classes, if it's to make the game better I don't mind.

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Originally Posted by Aramil

While I agree with you, the problem is that the armory system won't prevent that. Right now the game is still recent but in the long run i have no doubt that a similar thing will happen in XIV. For exemple thm will probably be expected to level conjurer to learn spell like protect and raise. A gladiator to level marauder for defender. DDs to get feint, raging strike and ferocity, etc. Of course you could decide that you want to use spell with your gladiator, but in party other players will probably tell you not to do that.

The thing is that once a game has been out for long enough, the "best" builds are found by the community and everyone is expected to use one of them. Armory system or job system, it won't matter.

As for scrapping the current classes, if it's to make the game better I don't mind.

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Balance is always an ongoing issue, which is why the developers need to, both now and in the future, participate in fostering a sense of diversity. If one build achieves supreme status over all others, then changes need to be made to give other builds equivalent viability.

MMOs always have to be equilibriated.

Just because the armory system is still in its infancy and SE hasn't struck the right balance yet doesn't mean it should be dismissed altogether, which is essentially what the original topic is asking for.

If the issue is diversifying players and giving them defined roles, then this can be achieved by creating specialisations within the armory system. Yoshi has already talked of this as an option, and we have the various sketches to prove it.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

Balance is always an ongoing issue, which is why the developers need to, both now and in the future, participate in fostering a sense of diversity. If one build achieves supreme status over all others, then changes need to be made to give other builds equivalent viability.

MMOs always have to be equilibriated.

Just because the armory system is still in its infancy and SE hasn't struck the right balance yet doesn't mean it should be dismissed altogether, which is essentially what the original topic is asking for.

If the issue is diversifying players and giving them defined roles, then this can be achieved by creating specialisations within the armory system. Yoshi has already talked of this as an option, and we have the various sketches to prove it.

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There are always going to be certain "builds" required by the community. You complained about not being able to play as a war/blm but how is this game any different? Do you think a party would be crazy about a gladiator spamming thunder/fire spells? They are hardly worth the time on conjurer anyways, on a gladiator they are garbage and should be, thunder shouldnt be as strong as just a standard gladiator attack on a gladiator so why would anyone try that?

You cant just make them more effective on other classes, a gladiator shouldnt be able to have the spellpower of a conjurer or even close to it while still having the durability of a gladiator, if they did why would anyone want to be a conjurer?

Having the complete freedom to put anything on any class just doesnt work, and people get upset that nearly every skill from other classes are worthless on their class anyway.

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Originally Posted by Aramil

While I agree with you, the problem is that the armory system won't prevent that. Right now the game is still recent but in the long run i have no doubt that a similar thing will happen in XIV. For exemple thm will probably be expected to level conjurer to learn spell like protect and raise. A gladiator to level marauder for defender. DDs to get feint, raging strike and ferocity, etc. Of course you could decide that you want to use spell with your gladiator, but in party other players will probably tell you not to do that.

The thing is that once a game has been out for long enough, the "best" builds are found by the community and everyone is expected to use one of them. Armory system or job system, it won't matter.

As for scrapping the current classes, if it's to make the game better I don't mind.

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Now here is what I'm talking about. In the end, it'll come down to what's best and everyone will copy.

Gifthouse I know exactly what you mean about coming in and changing things once the limit is achieved. However you can't just go in and change things at random, you would have to implement new material. How they did this in FFXI was to not only instill new gear, and missions, but to also create new jobs within the expansion.

Near the end of my seven year tenure of FFXI, the latest expansion came out with the new job, Scholar. Now if you don't know this, then I will tell you. It was basically a WHM & BLM stuffed together, but with basically all the lower end abilities and a few of it's own, unique abilities.

The reason why I am pulling the Scholar out is to point out the fact that because they implemented that new job, it opened up new possibilities for Main/Sub combo's. One of the late, greatest, was WHM/SCH. It opened up the variety again and spiced up the game one more time.

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Originally Posted by Choc

There are always going to be certain "builds" required by the community. You complained about not being able to play as a war/blm but how is this game any different? Do you think a party would be crazy about a gladiator spamming thunder/fire spells? They are hardly worth the time on conjurer anyways, on a gladiator they are garbage and should be, thunder shouldnt be as strong as just a standard gladiator attack on a gladiator so why would anyone try that?

You cant just make them more effective on other classes, a gladiator shouldnt be able to have the spellpower of a conjurer or even close to it while still having the durability of a gladiator, if they did why would anyone want to be a conjurer?

Having the complete freedom to put anything on any class just doesnt work, and people get upset that nearly every skill from other classes are worthless on their class anyway.

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My point isnt that everything should be overpowered, but that there should be a diversity of roles. If you want to be a sword wielding mage that can tank and heal and destroy everything at range or something crazy, then obviously the game shouldn't accommodate that.

But if you want to be a sword wielding mage that enchants, enfeebles, etc., then maybe that is something that the developers should try and support.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

My point isnt that everything should be overpowered, but that there should be a diversity of roles. If you want to be a sword wielding mage that can tank and heal and destroy everything at range or something crazy, then obviously the game shouldn't accommodate that.

But if you want to be a sword wielding mage that enchants, enfeebles, etc., then maybe that is something that the developers should try and support.

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and what drawbacks will there be to playing like that? If every class could have enfeebles why wouldnt everyone have the best ones equiped? For instance bio/dia seem to be the popular debuffs, and if any class could equip those without having them be gimped or recieve any penalties for using them why wouldnt everyone already have them? If every class can have Cure III equiped and use it, why wouldnt they? Hence we come back to the certain "builds" everyones going to get the best of each class and put it on their own.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

My point isnt that everything should be overpowered, but that there should be a diversity of roles. If you want to be a sword wielding mage that can tank and heal and destroy everything at range or something crazy, then obviously the game shouldn't accommodate that.

But if you want to be a sword wielding mage that enchants, enfeebles, etc., then maybe that is something that the developers should try and support.

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I agree, that would be amazing, the only problem is that if you want multiple classes in a game, you need balance otherwise everyone will use the same classes. So to balance, unless you make all the classes exactly the same, you need to give weakness to balance the strength. By introducing strength and weakness, if the players can customize their character even a little(chose skill or stats for example) you just introduce the concept of "best" build(max the strength and min the weakness).

It's sad but as long as there's customization available, the community will expect everyone to use the best build.

While I agree with you that every war/nin is just about the same, I think that that fact contribute positively to the formation of party as when I invited someone with a specific main job/sub job combination, i know exactly what I'm getting.

another problem i see with this system is that I feel like whatever DoW job i play, it's the same experience, whether pug lnc gla, archer feel a litte different. While with the main/sub system of FFXI, even though every war/nin play the same, my sam and my war and my rng play differently.

And even within just one job, the play style is different when I play sam/war as oppose to sam/thf or sam/nin or sam/drg. sam/way I just deal damage and back up tank/ first voke for sata. As sam/thf I help with hate control. and that's just for party, sam/dnc is viable for solo play.

For other job I have to say that while i play smn/whm in party all the time, out of party sometime I go smn/sam as with Spirit Taker and Elemental Siphon, i never need to rest. For ranger in party I have went rng/nin and rng/sam. and for mission (specifically feast for gnat) i went with /war.

So I feel like the way of FFXI is flexible enough that I can change my main/sub job combination to fit in the need of the mission at hand while keeping the jobs unique that I feel each of my job play differently.

I also like the freedom that as sam I can use Great Katana and Polearm. I use polearm on my sam when in my 50s when we get penta thrust (and also for royal jelly) and great katana elsewhere. And the fact that it can use almost every weapon in the game is why I leveled war in the first place..

So to me, I would prefer a system where classes are not tied to weapon and where each class can be unique so that when I play a different class, I feel like I'm playing a different class. Does not necessary have to be FFXI's way, but I just hate this IKEA, build it yourself, job system.