4 guildleves in less than 1 hour=1/3rd of the way from 49-50?

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Originally Posted by Ferth

So everything should be retardedly easy?

They can add difficulty without making it tedious.

And no I don't claim to know what everyone finds enjoyable.

But If you don't find engaging and challenging gameplay enjoyable go play farmville.

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Where did I say that?

Apparently you have some kind of rose-tinted glasses that give you a selective reading ability. Or you just suck at reading comprehension. I'm gonna go with the latter.

Leveling does not make a game challenging and fun, it's the content of a game. You're way too focused on leveling to see the bigger picture. You're just as shortsighted as the OP.

If there were more challenging adventures while leveling -- like the entire AF tours which took you on voyages through Altepa and into Kuftal Tunnel and/or had you trekking through Uggalepih (why else would you fight Tonberries other than for AF unless you were a sadist that liked getting stabbed in the face) -- those are fun.

The act of grinding levels is not fun, no matter how challenging you make it. Sitting in town for 2-3 hours shouting for a party because it was the only way to level (I never had to do this due to a SPT, but I've seen others do it)? Not so fun either.

I think it's you who is shortsighted.

I see leveling AS content. Advancing your character should be enjoyable. Not something you slog through to get to the cap so you can start enjoying the content.

The game starts at rank one... it shouldn't be horrible from rank 1 to rank 25, with a brief patch of content from 25 to 32 and then horrible for another 13 ranks.

Right now it is tedious but "oh thank god it's easy!... no don't make it more challenging... just let me get through it so I can start... um... doing the rank 45 dungeon? killing faction leve nms?"

You said you like challenging content... but they shouldn't make leves more of a challenge? why? because it doesn't count as content until you are at the rank cap?

I'm sorry but I just can't agree with that. This game has alot of issues. None of them will be fixed magically at end game or by end game content. The base experience needs to be enjoyable, then end game content will have a platform to work with.

If people don't enjoy the journey to end game, most people won't stick around to see what is there.

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Originally Posted by Capita

As a R31 Archer, I still can't do more than 3 stars on R30 leves without using this method. Those are R45 mobs. Not happening.

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There a certain mob types that have increased levels.

Yarzons, Devilits, and Skeletons are the 3 I know for sure.

Typical 3 star L30 will have L36 mobs, but those ones will be L38. On 5 star L30s normal types will be 42 and Devils/Yarzons etc will be 44.

My brother and I average out to Level 30 and we duo almost every leve on 5 stars (L30s) but we still must do the Yarzon and Devilit leves on 3 stars. I think solo there are some 30 leves you can do alone on 5s at level 30 (goats) and some you can do solo on 4s (necrologos inferno).


Its just being aware of which leves are more difficult than the others, and its only typically that way because of the mob types. Which end up having lower levels, hp, damage output etc and changing your star value up or down depending on that and NOT just because its a level "30" leve perse.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

Considering that you are advocating change to a game that people are saying they enjoy, perhaps you should be the one looking to play something else?

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That very well might end up happening.

But from what I have seen it seems that most of the people who actually enjoy the leve system in it's current form go out of their way to make it a challenge.

Which I think is great. I personally do it too.

I just don't think the challenge should be entirely optional, or should atleast be proportional to the rewards.

On the surface, yes, It's me being dictatorial about the game "People shouldn't be able to do this!" But really... the ease of certain leves is almost exploitation. They changed how leves work in 1.18 to prevent the exploitation for failing and repeating leves. If people can make gains without effort, it's an exploit. Otherwise we all may as well start at the level cap.

The exploitation isn't lessened by only being accessible every 36 hours... or by being ignored by people who don't do it.

And really I am not calling for leves to be so completely reworked as to be unenjoyable... the people who already go out of their way to make leves challenging shouldn't see any difference... or maybe a difference in their favor.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

I think it's you who is shortsighted.

I see leveling AS content. Advancing your character should be enjoyable. Not something you slog through to get to the cap so you can start enjoying the content.

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That's the problem. Leveling in this game IS slogging through the content to get to cap, because THERE IS NO CONTENT. Nothing. Grinding is NOT content. I don't know anyone who actually LIKES grinding. No one likes leves either, but it's closer to content than grinding is.

The mini-quests in the game are fun, but they don't reward anything substantial. They should all give SP. Quest mobs should give SP. Completing the quests should give SP, regardless of whatever nonfactor item reward it gives. Right now, there's no point in doing them outside of progressing the story. That means they do nothing to make leveling more enjoyable, because they have nothing to do with leveling.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

The game starts at rank one... it shouldn't be horrible from rank 1 to rank 25, with a brief patch of content from 25 to 32 and then horrible for another 13 ranks.

Right now it is tedious but "oh thank god it's easy!... no don't make it more challenging... just let me get through it so I can start... um... doing the rank 45 dungeon? killing faction leve nms?"

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The problem with what you're suggesting is that there are no other alternatives. You say leveling is content. Ok, great. That doesn't make it enjoyable content. There's nothing to do in between. Main story quests and class quests? They're so short and far between that most people tend to forget they're even there until they're reminded.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

You said you like challenging content... but they shouldn't make leves more of a challenge? why? because it doesn't count as content until you are at the rank cap?

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Sure, make them challenging, but increase the rewards for completing them even further. Otherwise, what's the point outside of punishing casuals for not having the time to build their own grind parties?

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Originally Posted by Ferth

I'm sorry but I just can't agree with that. This game has alot of issues. None of them will be fixed magically at end game or by end game content. The base experience needs to be enjoyable, then end game content will have a platform to work with.

If people don't enjoy the journey to end game, most people won't stick around to see what is there.

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I'm sorry, I just can't agree with you. You have this utopic vision of some miraculous game that doesn't exist anywhere, where people like taking 2-3 years to reach the level cap because leveling is so much fun.

So to summarize the points brought against my topic, if I have it right:

• This imbalance will be fixed with XP chains and party areas (hopefully)
• Guildleves should remain easy content that gives a spurt of XP because they are on a reset, and this reset should and will be lengthened in the near future to balance this (along with the removal of a straight reset, for a ticket/point system like Anima).
• More varied options for leveling solo or in groups should be added (and are being added according to the producer)

Sounds good to me. I can bite the bullet and do guildleves for another month or two I suppose, as long as both the developer and the community doesn't abandon their plans/support for rewarding grouping and more challenging/engaging leveling content.

In fairness it isn't as broken as it was with leve linking I guess, where that 35k would be closer to 100k. Hopefully I'll still have some classes to level by the time they get a real leveling system in place with 1.2, I'd like to be able to level with new PS3 players.

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Originally Posted by Capita

That's the problem. Leveling in this game IS slogging through the content to get to cap, because THERE IS NO CONTENT. Nothing. Grinding is NOT content. I don't know anyone who actually LIKES grinding. No one likes leves either, but it's closer to content than grinding is.

The mini-quests in the game are fun, but they don't reward anything substantial. They should all give SP. Quest mobs should give SP. Completing the quests should give SP, regardless of whatever nonfactor item reward it gives. Right now, there's no point in doing them outside of progressing the story. That means they do nothing to make leveling more enjoyable, because they have nothing to do with leveling.


The problem with what you're suggesting is that there are no other alternatives. You say leveling is content. Ok, great. That doesn't make it enjoyable content. There's nothing to do in between. Main story quests and class quests? They're so short and far between that most people tend to forget they're even there until they're reminded.


Sure, make them challenging, but increase the rewards for completing them even further. Otherwise, what's the point outside of punishing casuals for not having the time to build their own grind parties?


I'm sorry, I just can't agree with you. You have this utopic vision of some miraculous game that doesn't exist anywhere, where people like taking 2-3 years to reach the level cap because leveling is so much fun.

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Have you been reading any of this thread? Or did you just jump to the last page?

I do have a utopic view of what this game can be. I have high hopes, though I certainly recognize that it's nowhere close to there now.

Changing leves to be more engaging is something I want to see happen to help get this game to where I'd like to be. This game is in a very unique position, in that we as the players have more of a say in what the dev team considers than any MMO has ever had.

Are all our ideas great? No. Are all my ideas great? I doubt it. But to be open to discussion... to be willing to look at things in the game, see what is wrong with them now, and to be able to suggest things to make it better is a great thing. And right now it's something that can have a direct influence on where this game is headed.

Even if they don't use any of my suggestions.. as long as the dev team recognizes that something can be improved it's a net gain for everyone.

You don't have to agree with all of my suggestions, but please don't think something is fine the way it is just because it could be worse.

As for people taking 2-3 years to get to the level cap... Now you are putting words into my mouth. Yoshida himself has said he thinks the time it takes the average player to reach the rank cap in a class should be 3-4 months.

Why should that be 3-4 months of hell? There are... what 18 classes in the game? How many people are really only going to rank up one class ever? I'd be willing to bet it's not the majority of the community. In a game where ranking up is going to take up so much of everyone's play time... whether they already have a class at the cap, or are working on their first one... why should it have to be a distasteful experience?

And why do you think it can't be an enjoyable one?

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Originally Posted by Ferth

Alot of people are confusing the rate of sp with the ease of gaining it.

The core argument is that for no effort beyond accepting the leves and running to where they start he got 36k sp. He did 4 leves in an hour. that's 15 minutes a leve. The problem isn't that he got 36k sp... the problem is that any bot that can spam one input could do the same.

If you think it's ok that the casual content is so insultingly easy... what is wrong with you?

The fights didn't require skill, they didn't require ability, they just required he shoot things... usually only once.

To go on and on about how leves are fine the way they are really worries me. Because leves are not fine the way they are... and of course the answer isn't to remove them or to nerf the sp gain... the answer is to make it an acceptable challenge. Make people work for that sp. And no the work doesn't need to take more than half an hour. It doesn't need to be tedious (frankly, it already is pretty tedious.) No one, ever, should have the option of mindlessly killing super weak mobs for sp gain. Super weak mobs that give pretty damn decent sp, too.

That is where the complaint stems from... its not saying the sp needs to be nerfed... but the mobs need to be buffed. He was fighting mobs that were 15 ranks higher than he was. And killing many of them in one hit. I can't believe I have to keep saying this.

They don't need to change the sp returns at all... they do need to make a mob that is FIFTEEN RANKS HIGHER THAN YOU an acceptable challenge.

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There's nothing wrong with leves.

If you feel they are easy, up the difficulty.

Also, no. Mobs on a r40 leve on 3 stars are not 15 ranks higher than a r49 player. I do BW leves on 4 or 5 stars on my r48 LNC and no I have not seen rank 60+ mobs. Math?

The sp rewards are based on time. Challenge yourself to successfully finish a leve that is below your rank at a higher difficulty, and to accomplish this in record time and you will be rewarded.

P.S. I read your posts but I wasn't about to quote 5+ walls of redundant text. In one you tried to compare leves as they are now to the leve-failing exploit before.

Leves are working as intended now. People are finishing them. This is not an exploit.

It's difficult to debate with you when your arguments have more holes in them than Swiss cheese.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

Have you been reading any of this thread? Or did you just jump to the last page?

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You serious?

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Originally Posted by Ferth

I do have a utopic view of what this game can be. I have high hopes, though I certainly recognize that it's nowhere close to there now.

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The problem with your utopic view is that it doesn't exist in any current game, and it doesn't exist in this game. That's why putting your idea of leveling into this game won't work, because there is no content to support it, and we have no clue what's to come in the future.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

Changing leves to be more engaging is something I want to see happen to help get this game to where I'd like to be. This game is in a very unique position, in that we as the players have more of a say in what the dev team considers than any MMO has ever had.

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Leves are the least of our worries right now. If they were to change leves with how the game currently is, it would break casual leveling and have little effect on hardcore leveling. This is, once again, because of the lack of alternatives for casuals to level. Unlike casuals, hardcore players have other options.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

Are all our ideas great? No. Are all my ideas great? I doubt it. But to be open to discussion... to be willing to look at things in the game, see what is wrong with them now, and to be able to suggest things to make it better is a great thing. And right now it's something that can have a direct influence on where this game is headed.

Even if they don't use any of my suggestions.. as long as the dev team recognizes that something can be improved it's a net gain for everyone.

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That's all fine and well, but when you try to say casuals only want the game to be easy without considering outside factors, it doesn't place a lot of validity toward your argument.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

You don't have to agree with all of my suggestions, but please don't think something is fine the way it is just because it could be worse.

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The current SP gain system is fine the way it is right now with the current state of the game. Without content to support the idea of having alternate leveling methods for both casuals and hardcore to level to cap within a reasonable time period, the current system works just fine until we get that content.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

As for people taking 2-3 years to get to the level cap... Now you are putting words into my mouth. Yoshida himself has said he thinks the time it takes the average player to reach the rank cap in a class should be 3-4 months.

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He's reached that goal for the casuals who do only leves every reset, which is why it works. Casuals who can only play on weekends will reach cap in closer to 6 months. Hardcore players can reach it in less than 2 months. If leves are right on schedule while party grinding is way ahead of schedule, which form of leveling really needs to be more challenging?

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Originally Posted by Ferth

Why should that be 3-4 months of hell? There are... what 18 classes in the game? How many people are really only going to rank up one class ever? I'd be willing to bet it's not the majority of the community. In a game where ranking up is going to take up so much of everyone's play time... whether they already have a class at the cap, or are working on their first one... why should it have to be a distasteful experience?

And why do you think it can't be an enjoyable one?

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It's hell because that's how the game is right now. There's a massive lack of content, and the game is still largely broken. It's getting to where a newly launched game should be, but there's still a massive gap that needs to be filled to make the game truly enjoyable.

I enjoyed FFXI more than any other MMO I've played, but look at how much content you could do while leveling. Granted, it had the advantage of being released here with an expansion, but it had a ton of content that gave you activities to do while leveling. Even then, it took me barely 3 months after release to hit cap.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

Alot of people are confusing the rate of sp with the ease of gaining it.

The core argument is that for no effort beyond accepting the leves and running to where they start he got 36k sp. He did 4 leves in an hour. that's 15 minutes a leve. The problem isn't that he got 36k sp... the problem is that any bot that can spam one input could do the same.

If you think it's ok that the casual content is so insultingly easy... what is wrong with you?

The fights didn't require skill, they didn't require ability, they just required he shoot things... usually only once.

To go on and on about how leves are fine the way they are really worries me. Because leves are not fine the way they are... and of course the answer isn't to remove them or to nerf the sp gain... the answer is to make it an acceptable challenge. Make people work for that sp. And no the work doesn't need to take more than half an hour. It doesn't need to be tedious (frankly, it already is pretty tedious.) No one, ever, should have the option of mindlessly killing super weak mobs for sp gain. Super weak mobs that give pretty damn decent sp, too.

That is where the complaint stems from... its not saying the sp needs to be nerfed... but the mobs need to be buffed. He was fighting mobs that were 15 ranks higher than he was. And killing many of them in one hit. I can't believe I have to keep saying this.

They don't need to change the sp returns at all... they do need to make a mob that is FIFTEEN RANKS HIGHER THAN YOU an acceptable challenge.

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Dude was 49 fighting on 3 star. Max mob rank on 3 star is 51, and min is 46. They were NOT 15 levels above him. They were either 2 levels above him or 3 levels below him. Also, it took him 15 min for each leve? That's weak as hell. At 43 it took me only 3 minutes to complete a behest with rank 45 mobs, considering i was fighting at mid-strength. I bet if he went full force, he would've gotten 45-50k for those leves because he could have beaten them in about 5 minutes each. So, in that case, effort would've been more rewarding. When I hit 49 I'm going to try the exact same thing, but to all out and see just how much more SP i get than the OP.