Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

I can assure you the only time people would care about your performance as a healer back in ARR was when you failed at your primary role: Healing. In my experience people would not call you out for not DPSing, for me it was actually the opposite: If they saw you using Cleric Stance they would call you out for not focusing on healing.

I recall an old post on reddit about a tank saying that if they saw their healer use Cleric Stance they would votekick immediately.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

In ARR if you were running with a group and didn't use cleric stance as a healer you were either ridiculed or kicked, it was not optional.

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Not true, out of hundreds of completed "stuff" in ARR I never saw that happen in ARR.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

This isn't about world first clears of the hardest content at the time, this is about running dungeons and alliance raids. But the fact that you use that as the metric by which all other aspects of the game should be played does show that things that happen in these world first and raiding groups bleeds into all content, and people expect players in all content to be reaching for that level of play.

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You kind of missed the point Ty made. If the best players in the game weren't using Cleric Stance. In what world do you think casual players running dungeons and alliance raids were? Nobody, and I mean, nobody was ridiculing healers about using Cleric Stance in ARR, let alone kicking them. That didn't happen even in Heavensward despite the push for healer DPS getting off the ground then. You got some serious revisionist history going there, mate.

If anything even in HW raid groups were still mostly running main healer and off healer roles as a result of cleric until it started being frowned upon near the end of the expansion and the appearance of the Balance. Before that, only really hardcore groups actually spread healer effort to pool and share resources like today.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

In ARR if you were running with a group and didn't use cleric stance as a healer you were either ridiculed or kicked, it was not optional.

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Yeah, no. Be it Raids or Dungeons, the number of people that would actually say anything for using or not using Cleric was minimal because content actually had some teeth to them back then. I remember many a wipe because a fresh level 50 Tank would go into Pharos Sirius thinking it was just like the countless other dungeons before it and die to the 1st pull because the enemies actually hurt and the DoT was NOT a joke if you got hit by it. That also isn't taking into account MP management was actually a thing in ARR since you couldn't just oGCD your way thru it, with Freecure actually having some proper applications because trying to spam Cure 2 was not humanly possible because Shroud of Saints' CD was too damn long and Bene was even longer and Death didn't refresh your CD timer as it does now.

Hell, I saw people comment more about turning off Cleric Stance than having it on.

I played during ARR and HW and I didn't have the sprout when i unlocked conjurer and did my levelling, so no new player leniency for me. I was never told to use Cleric Stance.

I have, however, been yelled at several times for having Cleric Stance ON when I was comfortable enough to use it.

Levelled in ARR as a WHM on my original account in patch 2.5 (not this account), never saw anyone yell at me for either side of the coin: Cleric Stance on, no yelling, Cleric Stance off, no yelling. It's almost like players have the courtesy of giving the benefit of the doubt, that the player 'probably knows what they're doing'. If nothing is going wrong, packs of trash are dying (faster too) and the party isn't, why complain about it? Typing 'hey use/don't use cleric' is a DPS loss

Funny that one person said 'using Cleric got you yelled at' and like 8 people all say 'nah that's just not true'. Us healers have been trained like Pavlov's dogs

edit: also when I came back to the game (in 3.2) and levelled through ARR story as a SCH, again I don't recall any instances of getting yelled at for Cleric Stance being on or off

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

also when I came back to the game (in 3.2) and levelled through ARR story as a SCH, again I don't recall any instances of getting yelled at for Cleric Stance being on or off

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I only remember the one time I got yelled at for having Cleric Stance on.

It was a farm party for Nidhogg EX in PF, the tank died because he flubbed his mitigation. He yelled at me for having Cleric Stance on, so I passive-aggressively spammed Cure on him for the entire farm party.

Other than that, people don't really care whether you have it on or off, as long as you do your job.

Same here... healed alex savage from way back as SCH, didn't get any complaints about CS....must be because I am SCH. Rouse, FTW!

The only time i got rejected was when i tank as PLD. It's always DRK+WAR in full slaying accessories.

Ya, the whole dps thing only really kicked because of how second coil savage. Super groups trying to figure out how to survive and beating the new dps checks lead to the whole healers dpsing and tanks tanking in their dps stance.

(from another thread)
I am very disappointed with the direction they are taking the game in terms of job design vs. fight design difficulty and engagement.

Job design should be THE ONE that is most engaging and has high skill ceiling. This way every player is engaged in gameplay even in casual content or grinding. What they are doing is dumbing down the jobs to levels where you fall asleep in dungeons, while making the savage fights harder and harder with body checks, memory games, one shots and no way of recovery.

I completely stopped doing roulettes as I can't bear the 123 simulator on all melees including tanks, or 111 simulator on healers. Sure, in a very difficult fight like TOP or P12S I still struggle to execute perfect rotation and I am engaged a lot. But that's not enough since I only do this content for 10% of my game time and the rest feels super boring.

From the live letter it seems that they are going even more into that direction, possibly making many jobs just 1112 and oGCD weaving copies of each other. The encounters in turn will have to be really exceptional to compensate...

The other MMO I played, Aion-classic, truly not a good game content wise, but the combat is very engaging.
Every class feels different with unique things it can do and what it can optimize like normal attacks timing, dispel timing, aggro/mana/cc/pet management etc.
Sure, you can just mash your buttons and clear most of PVE content, but if you want - there are so many things to improve in. I really miss that possibility here.

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Originally Posted by Dhalya

(from another thread)
I am very disappointed with the direction they are taking the game in terms of job design vs. fight design difficulty and engagement.

Job design should be THE ONE that is most engaging and has high skill ceiling. This way every player is engaged in gameplay even in casual content or grinding. What they are doing is dumbing down the jobs to levels where you fall asleep in dungeons, while making the savage fights harder and harder with body checks, memory games, one shots and no way of recovery.

I completely stopped doing roulettes as I can't bear the 123 simulator on all melees including tanks, or 111 simulator on healers. Sure, in a very difficult fight like TOP or P12S I still struggle to execute perfect rotation and I am engaged a lot. But that's not enough since I only do this content for 10% of my game time and the rest feels super boring.

From the live letter it seems that they are going even more into that direction, possibly making many jobs just 1112 and oGCD weaving copies of each other. The encounters in turn will have to be really exceptional to compensate...

The other MMO I played, Aion-classic, truly not a good game content wise, but the combat is very engaging.
Every class feels different with unique things it can do and what it can optimize like normal attacks timing, dispel timing, aggro/mana/cc/pet management etc.
Sure, you can just mash your buttons and clear most of PVE content, but if you want - there are so many things to improve in. I really miss that possibility here.

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#3000 day since waiting for a non-p2w MMORPG that has good combat system.

Nobody ever told me anything about CS, except for one instance where I was praised for having it on 80% of an instance and us still getting through just fine.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

In ARR if you were running with a group and didn't use cleric stance as a healer you were either ridiculed or kicked, it was not optional.

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Meanwhile in reality:....

http://i.imgur.com/rWyWHVU.jpg

In ARR, the only time I can genuinely remember Cleric Stance being 'mandatory' was when I was running tank/blm/whm/whm Wanderer's Palace grind sessions before we realised locking trash out with boss room gates was a thing.

Early on in ARR the overwhelming majority of mainstream players either flat out didn't care or just wanted you to play it safe. By the tail end of HW an expectation for healer DPS was properly starting to filter down into the mainstream from high end players but it wasn't really the norm yet (As my screenshot demonstrates).

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

In ARR, the only time I can genuinely remember Cleric Stance being 'mandatory' was when I was running tank/blm/whm/whm Wanderer's Palace grind sessions before we realised locking trash out with boss room gates was a thing.

Early on in ARR the overwhelming majority of mainstream players either flat out didn't care or just wanted you to play it safe. By the tail end of HW an expectation for healer DPS was properly starting to filter down into the mainstream from high end players but it wasn't really the norm yet (As my screenshot demonstrates).

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I can't remember a single time anyone got annoyed by my using Cleric Stance in ARR for which spamming Cure II / Adlo wouldn't have arrived at the exact same result (i.e., Tank pulled as much as they could either without miti or without taking threat, causing DPS to get nuked), while I can easily remember some 530+ times, across omni-leveling and expert roulettes, that the other dps or the tank asked the healer not to waste time idling between heals or by doing attacks of less than one-third power from using them outside of CS. Several of those were within the beta ("don't idle") or the first couple weeks upon ARR's release (including "don't waste your time attacking without CS" post-Stone Vigil).

While it was very rarely something people would kick over (I can think of only maybe a dozen times I've seen that, between Ex RLs and PuG Coils), Sebazy's anecdote above of someone getting mad over the healer not spam-overhealing for any legitimate reason (e.g., because the tank would otherwise die to a flurry attack if not topped off prior AND a heal didn't land right between them) was rarer still; almost always, it resulted simply from idiocy or blame-shifting (such as, as in Sebazy's example above, the player mistaking party-wide one-shots from failed DPS checks for healing checks, or dying before Bene/Lustrate could go off because of complete failure to use mitigation, etc.). Running out of MP before the end of the fight because of tossing out a CS DoT per its duration was pretty much only ever frowned up if there was no bard and the healer packed no Elixirs AND there was no enrage or large raid burst avoidable via that healer damage.

It's worth noting, though, that the expectation varied with content type. Healers were more expected to deal damage in (easier, such as very early or overgeared level-cap) dungeons rather than in raids, since MP was actually an issue in sustained combat those days.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

To me this is the core of the problem. I'd rather have SE decide on one approach: go all in on the trinity or ditch it entirely. The current half measured approach just gives us the worst of both worlds.

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Is what we're experiencing right now really an issue of the trinity being "half-measured", though? Or merely imbalanced in utilization?

We have ultimately two outputs: Damage and sustain.

• Effective damage makes enemies live less long. (Granted, in PvE, the difference between "effective" and "raw" is limited only to exploitation of buff windows, as enemies have no self-heals nor --at this point-- even varying mitigation.
  
  
• Effective sustain makes you and your allies live more long. (That is to say, if you put a HoT on someone who would then be unavoidably killed through it without lasting even a hit longer, that effect didn't contribute to its intended function.)

But with so little difference between "effective" and "raw" damage or sustain, there are very few means by which the actual advantages of specializing towards a role goes beyond basic output.

For instance, if healing can neither increase effective damage (by avoiding a debuff that'd otherwise ultimately reduce clear speed, preventing an important knockback, or allowing DPS to greed a mechanic for vital uptime) nor decrease the total sustain required for a given clear speed... the only potential differentiators are (A) no one dying and (B) the healer's overall DPS.

The first is painfully bimodal, such that making it significant feels worse for everyone, even in a game without hard rez caps. The second, painfully dull, especially when there's little conflict applied through rotational conflict with keeping people from dying (such as threats being too spaced and predictable).

But even then, making far more engaging use of healers doesn't require going "all in" on the trinity to the point of stripping damage actions from healers. Heck, it'd likely work better with more cognitive load and potential conflict among healers' offensive actions. But it does require amping sustain requirements and interactivity.

And that's before we even get into the further divide of highly scaled vs. relatively flat means of output, or what sustain requirements would be necessary to offset advantages of margin (such as from using shields over heals).

Personally, I like the idea of certain tanks and DPS being able to bring healing to the party as a form of utility that can support the healers, but in order for that to feel healthy, that healing can't be frequent or effective enough to outright replace the healers, but that's an easy line to cross in FFXIV because of a number of reasons. We don't take damage very often in most content, first of all, so there's barely any pressure a non-healer can actually take off the healer's shoulders, and even when we do take damage, the healers are so ridiculously powerful that you need the utility healing to be near that level in order for it to provide enough sustain to help the healer conserve resources.

Anybody’s excited to hear anything along the line of “Healings are made easier in first tier to ease more players into savage difficulty”-kind of excuse to not give us fights that actually requires us to press our shiny healy buttons regularly? ;)

Also Holy Carp we’ve reached 400 pages lol.

If R1 is anything like P1 we may as well just give the healer spots to WAR on launch

It's not like Healer's stacks somehow default to Tanks if Healer is missing already.

Just like how non-crab crustaceans will eventually evolved into a crab-like creature.

All non-healer DPS will eventually evolved into a healer-like DPS.

Tanks is now currently experiencing Tank version of "carcinization", with the obvious symptoms being Tanks now unanimously splitted into 2 type of Tanks,

One type of Tanks where it's focus DPS over sustain, such as DRK and GNB.

Another type of Tanks where it's focus sustain over DPS, such as WAR and PLD.

And DPS class in general is experiencing a lot streamlined rotation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Anybody’s excited to hear anything along the line of “Healings are made easier in first tier to ease more players into savage difficulty”-kind of excuse to not give us fights that actually requires us to press our shiny healy buttons regularly? ;)

Also Holy Carp we’ve reached 400 pages lol.

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The fact that this thread has been going strong for 2 years now shows just how bad the problem is in this game. People are constantly chiming in with their experiences.

Personally? I give up. My sub ends in 4 more days and I'm not renewing.

I'm done supporting a game where the job design devs, to me, seem like they have no idea how to properly design the healing role or much less have an overall vision they are trying to obtain.

10 years was a good run. I'm out. Best of luck to anyone going into Dawntrail. I hope it's everything you wanted it to be. There'll be a large house opening up in ~45-60 days from now on Behemoth.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Personally, I like the idea of certain tanks and DPS being able to bring healing to the party as a form of utility that can support the healers, but in order for that to feel healthy, that healing can't be frequent or effective enough to outright replace the healers, but that's an easy line to cross in FFXIV because of a number of reasons. We don't take damage very often in most content, first of all, so there's barely any pressure a non-healer can actually take off the healer's shoulders, and even when we do take damage, the healers are so ridiculously powerful that you need the utility healing to be near that level in order for it to provide enough sustain to help the healer conserve resources.

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I feel that lowering the massive amount of healing output that healers provide would allow tanks and support DPS to give out either small amount of damage reduction or increased healing received in replacement of a large amount of personal/party healing that tanks have. That way it would bring utility and help with the overall healing during intense moments but also make it so that tanks can't solo bosses or do Ultimate level content without an entire role.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

I'm done supporting a game where the job design devs, to me, seem like they have no idea how to properly design the healing role or much less have an overall vision they are trying to obtain.

10 years was a good run. I'm out. Best of luck to anyone going into Dawntrail. I hope it's everything you wanted it to be. There'll be a large house opening up in ~45-60 days from now on Behemoth.

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While I'm personally not quitting outright since I still really enjoy high ranking PvP, I'll definitely be dropping healers entirely in PvE content. If their darned metrics are so important to them, they can consider me a -1 from the healer role data.

If there wasnt high ranking pvp I would be in severe depression myself, and I don't even main healer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

The fact that this thread has been going strong for 2 years now shows just how bad the problem is in this game. People are constantly chiming in with their experiences.

Personally? I give up. My sub ends in 4 more days and I'm not renewing.

I'm done supporting a game where the job design devs, to me, seem like they have no idea how to properly design the healing role or much less have an overall vision they are trying to obtain.

10 years was a good run. I'm out. Best of luck to anyone going into Dawntrail. I hope it's everything you wanted it to be. There'll be a large house opening up in ~45-60 days from now on Behemoth.

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God Bless and Good Luck to you. You fought the good fight. Here's hoping that we can continue this thread by the time you leave the game for good.

Not FF related, but if you are looking for a game with great healer gameplay, play Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous (Pillars of Eternity is a good substitute too). Wrath of the Righteous is a single player game, but a dang good one. Being an Angel Cleric is one of the best experiences as a Healer that I've ever had in a game, even if I did not finish it yet. The game will receive it's last batch of DLC next month, so now is a good time to try it out.

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Originally Posted by currentlemon

God Bless and Good Luck to you. You fought the good fight. Here's hoping that we can continue this thread by the time you leave the game for good.

Not FF related, but if you are looking for a game with great healer gameplay, play Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous (Pillars of Eternity is a good substitute too). Wrath of the Righteous is a single player game, but a dang good one. Being an Angel Cleric is one of the best experiences as a Healer that I've ever had in a game, even if I did not finish it yet. The game will receive it's last batch of DLC next month, so now is a good time to try it out.

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On that note, when it comes to healing, I love me some Guild wars 2.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

While I'm personally not quitting outright since I still really enjoy high ranking PvP, I'll definitely be dropping healers entirely in PvE content. If their darned metrics are so important to them, they can consider me a -1 from the healer role data.

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I'm not yet ready to pack it in as I still enjoy raiding and the push for week 1 but I won't deny Endwalker pushed me the closest I've ever been to unsubbing. Dawntrail needs to be an absolute banger or it'll definitely be something I reconsider a year or so from now.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

I'm not yet ready to pack it in as I still enjoy raiding and the push for week 1 but I won't deny Endwalker pushed me the closest I've ever been to unsubbing. Dawntrail needs to be an absolute banger or it'll definitely be something I reconsider a year or so from now.

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While I do enjoy the rush of week 1 healing because I enjoy building a healing cooldown spreadsheet for each fight, I've come to the conclusion that joining a group to have fun for 1 week just to be bored for 7 more weeks in reclears is just not worth it unless the group itself is full of fun people, but it's the group that's fun at that point, not the job gameplay or the content.

Endwalker was a wake up call for every other role as to how boring their gameplay could become, but as a healer main, I've been burned out since ShB. I think most of us who mained healer for a long time won't bother with another 2.5 years of this job design and we'll mostly be swapping off healer or quitting raiding (or the game) entirely.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

While I do enjoy the rush of week 1 healing because I enjoy building a healing cooldown spreadsheet for each fight, I've come to the conclusion that joining a group to have fun for 1 week just to be bored for 7 more weeks in reclears is just not worth it unless the group itself is full of fun people, but it's the group that's fun at that point, not the job gameplay or the content.

Endwalker was a wake up call for every other role as to how boring their gameplay could become, but as a healer main, I've been burned out since ShB. I think most of us who mained healer for a long time won't bother with another 2.5 years of this job design and we'll mostly be swapping off healer or quitting raiding (or the game) entirely.

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At this point my sub hinges on the BLM change being good or PCT being fun. 8.0 can't come soon enough.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aravell

While I do enjoy the rush of week 1 healing because I enjoy building a healing cooldown spreadsheet for each fight, I've come to the conclusion that joining a group to have fun for 1 week just to be bored for 7 more weeks in reclears is just not worth it unless the group itself is full of fun people, but it's the group that's fun at that point, not the job gameplay or the content.

Endwalker was a wake up call for every other role as to how boring their gameplay could become, but as a healer main, I've been burned out since ShB. I think most of us who mained healer for a long time won't bother with another 2.5 years of this job design and we'll mostly be swapping off healer or quitting raiding (or the game) entirely.

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SGE changes may interest me providing SE actually increases damage frequency as far as healing goes, but I'm pretty sure Picto is gonna make or break whether or not I stay. GNB is fun on occassion, but tanking's about as boring as healing with a better rotation.

I have 0 hopes for AST going into 7.0 and have an even worse outlook on w/e "overhaul" they may be having in 8.0.

Part of me having that little hopium of them changing their mind to change SCH's new 2nd DoT into the 6th Aetherflow spender with 30-45s cooldown as a bandaid change.

That's never going to happen, obviously. We're not allowed to make mistakes and that's that :p You will dance to the encounter and you will like it!

Can’t wait to see this thread reach page 800 in 2.5 years where we await the reveal of this 8.0 job identity revamp that we will hear radio silence about until 1.5 months before the next expansion drops.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Can’t wait to see this thread reach page 800 in 2.5 years where we await the reveal of this 8.0 job identity revamp that we will hear radio silence about until 1.5 months before the next expansion drops.

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That has to be my biggest gripe with how they handle expansion leadups. Why the pan fried hell do they wait until six weeks before launch to talk about gameplay? You know gameplay, the entire reason people play games? They treat it like an afterthought as far as marketing is concerned. They should be openly discussing job changes for months and months before an expansion launch, not a few weeks.

Why every expansion do we know the date the media tour ends but not the date the embargo lifts

We know the useless information but not the useful information

The worst part about their process is that the Media Tour happens so close to release, that not only is the build demonstrated AT the Media Tour already out of date, but any feedback that could be given from the Media Tour going public (ie the Embargo is lifted) is far too late to actually act on. I remember that at the SHB Media Tour, GNB's Sonic Break was a total of 300p, less potency than parts of its 123 combo. When asked about it, the response was apparently 'Yes, it's not like that in the current build, it's much higher potency so it will be worth using'. And true enough, it was 900 on launch. So why is the Media Tour using older builds that are a couple months out of date? A week or so, I could understand, but over a month makes it 'not representative of final product' to an alarming degree.

It also doesn't help when the first reveal of any potential 'rework' happens a whole two months before the release of the product, meaning that if the rework isn't received well (eg, the traditional once-per-expansion AST rework), there's no time to actually do anything about it on a 'functionality' level. The Card system shown is what we're stuck with. They can adjust small parts like cooldowns or potencies to 'band aid' fix it, but a full overhaul just isn't 'in the cards' (ha) until 8.0. Hell, they acknowledged that AST was in such a state that it required a rework, but couldn't even add a second charge to Lightspeed for the whole of 6.X to alleviate the issues!

Hopefully they actually do have smaller hitboxes for bosses in 7.X, and positioning the boss in the arena correctly is an aspect of tanking that gets brought back. Maybe that'd help Tanks feel more like Tanks, instead of just being 'Blue DPS that are hard to kill'

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Originally Posted by SargeTheSeagull

That has to be my biggest gripe with how they handle expansion leadups. Why the pan fried hell do they wait until six weeks before launch to talk about gameplay? You know gameplay, the entire reason people play games? They treat it like an afterthought as far as marketing is concerned. They should be openly discussing job changes for months and months before an expansion launch, not a few weeks.

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Hate to make the comparison, but WOW's been showing their WIP Hero Talents system for the new expansion for months now, and even letting players PLAY the systems via the PTR, allowing the players to actually experience the classes, to give precise feedback

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

It also doesn't help when the first reveal of any potential 'rework' happens a whole two months before the release of the product, meaning that if the rework isn't received well (eg, the traditional once-per-expansion AST rework), there's no time to actually do anything about it on a 'functionality' level.

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Considering that there is usually some functional issue with WHM per expansion, they either don't care, don't properly test or don't have the necessary staff with knowledge of the role to deal with the issue far in advance. The fact that after over a decade we still have Freecure, all of the above.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

The worst part about their process is that the Media Tour happens so close to release, that not only is the build demonstrated AT the Media Tour already out of date, but any feedback that could be given from the Media Tour going public (ie the Embargo is lifted) is far too late to actually act on. I remember that at the SHB Media Tour, GNB's Sonic Break was a total of 300p, less potency than parts of its 123 combo. When asked about it, the response was apparently 'Yes, it's not like that in the current build, it's much higher potency so it will be worth using'. And true enough, it was 900 on launch. So why is the Media Tour using older builds that are a couple months out of date? A week or so, I could understand, but over a month makes it 'not representative of final product' to an alarming degree.

It also doesn't help when the first reveal of any potential 'rework' happens a whole two months before the release of the product, meaning that if the rework isn't received well (eg, the traditional once-per-expansion AST rework), there's no time to actually do anything about it on a 'functionality' level. The Card system shown is what we're stuck with. They can adjust small parts like cooldowns or potencies to 'band aid' fix it, but a full overhaul just isn't 'in the cards' (ha) until 8.0. Hell, they acknowledged that AST was in such a state that it required a rework, but couldn't even add a second charge to Lightspeed for the whole of 6.X to alleviate the issues!

Hopefully they actually do have smaller hitboxes for bosses in 7.X, and positioning the boss in the arena correctly is an aspect of tanking that gets brought back. Maybe that'd help Tanks feel more like Tanks, instead of just being 'Blue DPS that are hard to kill'



Hate to make the comparison, but WOW's been showing their WIP Hero Talents system for the new expansion for months now, and even letting players PLAY the systems via the PTR, allowing the players to actually experience the classes, to give precise feedback

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What, you didn't like the 6 potency media tour flamethrower?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Hate to make the comparison, but WOW's been showing their WIP Hero Talents system for the new expansion for months now, and even letting players PLAY the systems via the PTR, allowing the players to actually experience the classes, to give precise feedback

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You shouldn’t hate making that comparison. WoW is 14’s main competitor. Most of 14’s player base came from wow and there’s still tremendous amounts of overlap in the player bases of these games, myself included.

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Originally Posted by SargeTheSeagull

You shouldn’t hate making that comparison. WoW is 14’s main competitor. Most of 14’s player base came from wow and there’s still tremendous amounts of overlap in the player bases of these games, myself included.

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The comparison always ends up with the usual "WoW bad, XIV good" people coming out of the woodworks, that's why I would prefer to avoid it...which is unfortunately often impossible.
What else should we compare it to, some korean P2W MMO nobody even remembers?