So you're telling me..

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

People will bring them though. Those who understand anyway. Problem is, people look at what fflogs uses for rankings (rDPS) without understanding the other brackets.

If anything Sam could bump up another percent in the aDPS department, giving it a solid 2-3% lead over reaper and monk. Then, boost DRG and NIN up a bit more if their recent tinkering didn't do the trick. That would even them all out in the rDPS department better. You're going to have a top and a bottom though. It's just the way it is. However, that top should never be Sam in the rDPS department. At best, it should be third.

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The problem is RPR actually doing about the same aDPS as SAM, however it doing even more rDPS, so this is pretty unbalance right now. If SAM do more aDPS than RPR but have a lower rDPS then I think people wouldn't complain about this.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

People will bring them though. Those who understand anyway. Problem is, people look at what fflogs uses for rankings (rDPS) without understanding the other brackets..

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You clearly were not around during ARR where pretty much every raid group was mandatory double bard and once ninja was released it was double bard and ninja. The 4th DPS was usually DRG because blunt debuff from monk wasn't all that useful.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

You clearly were not around during ARR where pretty much every raid group was mandatory double bard and once ninja was released it was double bard and ninja. The 4th DPS was usually DRG because blunt debuff from monk wasn't all that useful.

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I was around, actually. I remember those days well. Bard was fine, yet people were saying it was weak, so the subsequent buff completely broke it. No one is saying Reaper is under performing, and the only people claiming Samurai are under-performing are those who are angry they aren't dominating anymore. In StB, Samurai pretty much had a dedicated spot.

Drg was brought predominately because of the piercing down for bard. Warrior was a shoe in for the slashing debuff, as well as its dps. Ninja, well cause of TA. Monk had no buffs to offer the raid, and it didn't jive well with comps. When played well, it was the highest dps though, and everyone knew it.

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Originally Posted by V_UZI

The problem is RPR actually doing about the same aDPS as SAM, however it doing even more rDPS, so this is pretty unbalance right now. If SAM do more aDPS than RPR but have a lower rDPS then I think people wouldn't complain about this.

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You say "even more" like it's being completely outclassed in the rDPS bracket. It's not. It's 2-3%. However, it needs to be closer to 1-2% to be fair. Yes, this is due to it not being high enough in aDPS atm. It's about 1% above reaper and monk right now, and it probably needs to go up to 2-3% above them in aDPS to make the rDPS even out more.

Trust me. I play samurai as well, and I enjoy it. I don't want it being completely blown out of the water. I just don't think it deserves to top rDPS.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

If anything, mediocre Samurai can't get away with being mediocre anymore. This is a good thing.

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Yeah true, sure feels bad when players get rewarded for mediocre performance, almost like it doesnt matter that much if you screw up, seems like a pretty flawed design choice tbh, a class shouldnt arbitrarily turn on easy mode for a majority of players.

Glad we agree its not ideal :)

And yeah the ideal fix would be adding depth instead of lowering output, but changes like that probably arent happening in the middle of an expansion.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

Sure, they have a dps party buff, but it's just 3%...

And the aoe heal is very conditional and very light (potency 100, lasts 15 sec.)

Yes, their dps is great, but it'll likely be adjusted in time. I only hope they don't nerf it into the ground like some sort of punishment for it being strong like they did to DK in WoW.

"Welp, ppl be angry, so we'll change the potencies to 100/105/115 and 120/120/130 across the board."

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Not to be confrontational, but dismissing the heal as "very conditional and very light" is absurdly laughable. Reaper doubled SMN and DNC's healing output while comfortably being the top dps in the game. It's heal was so powerful, in fact, that we saw the very first .05 patch nerf in the history of the game with the potency of the heal being cut in HALF. It still is the best defensive ability in the game on a DPS job after a 50% nerf. Talking down to people rightfully thinking reaper is overtuned in every aspect of the game (because it is, empirical evidence backs this up), just makes you look rude.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

So...what part was untrue? You disagreeing does not make my statements untrue.

It IS a 3% buff. The heal potency IS 100, lasting 15 seconds and only if your crest is broke. Don't roll in on someone saying they're lying when they aren't.

Are these abilities strong? Yes, but not wildly so. You say it's about as strong as Litany, but so what? You want it to be notably weaker? And a heal ability that can only be used if your crest is up and takes more than 10% of your health? Very conditional.

The only thing that needs work is the raw damage. Their utilities are fine as they are.

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This aged like fine milk, rofl.

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Originally Posted by Wyakin

Can’t even be bothered to read most of this thread and the stupid idiotic examples of why reaper is “overpowered”

If reaper is so OP why is monk out performing it in 3/6 of the current available fights at 90? If it’s healing is so over powered what about chakra? If it’s utility is so powerful what about brotherhood?

Ladies and gentlemen no, reaper isn’t over powered. BLM and SAM are simply under performing

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And... the other 8 dps jobs..?

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

It definitely is. I can't play black mage worth a damn but lots of people out there can go to town with the job. Other people can't deal with the APM requirements of Ninja but I've never had a problem with it. Some people had problems with the kinda rapidfire mechanics of e4, but I find it fun and easy. Any mechanic that makes me look at the arena edge will probably murder me though.

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Unsure if APM is really a consideration in this game? The fastest job in FFXIV is like 15 apm slower than the slowest job in wow, and FFXIV has zero targetting swaps to even take into account. I think decision making is the more difficult aspect of this game, not apm. Everything plays slow as molasses, so you just have to make sure you're pressing the right button at the right time.

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Originally Posted by Mysticunicycle

This aged like fine milk, rofl.

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Yes, talking down to people makes you very rude. I hope no one ever accuses me of such a thing.

And you make it sound as if I didn't get exactly what I wanted. Damage being untouched is great news to me. If the one utility is the only thing they adjusted, I couldn't be happier and I'm pretty sure it wasn't what most are whining about anyways in this thread.

Nice work, SE! A nerf I can support!

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Originally Posted by Scuoll

Yeah true, sure feels bad when players get rewarded for mediocre performance, almost like it doesnt matter that much if you screw up, seems like a pretty flawed design choice tbh, a class shouldnt arbitrarily turn on easy mode for a majority of players.

Glad we agree its not ideal :)

And yeah the ideal fix would be adding depth instead of lowering output, but changes like that probably arent happening in the middle of an expansion.

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I think you're conflating reaper not having depth with people who are pumping 95+ as being mediocre. Are least that's the way it's coming across. Having said that, I'd argue there is about as much depth to Reaper as there is to Samurai. There really isn't much to that job. Keep up your DoT and throw out as many midare as possible. Use Ogi in the 2 minute burn windows. Bout it. In a nut shell, Reaper is keep up DD, don't over cap resources, use Gluttony as close to CD as possible, have enough shroud to get two Communio under the two minute window. Three if you want to be a try hard when you're potting. In between, Samurai has a pretty fixed filler rotation. Reaper does not. That makes Reaper more flexible, but that doesn't mean Samurai has that much more depth. It is subjective.

To your second point. You say that like I never said I didn't want more depth to Reaper. I do, as I have stated before. I also would like it to be punished more for rotational mistakes, as I said before.

You're right, I highly doubt they will add anymore depth to it until 7.0. That doesn't mean its numbers should suffer until then. Additionally, a job's dps is not determined by how easy/hard or how much depth/lack of it has. That is something the community tries to implement standards on.

I do agree with you that how easy or hard a job is should not be a factor in balance, it's the main reason why whm had been so bad throughout the history of the game cause it's simple to a detrimental degree. I don't mind reaper being in line with monk but Sam should still be top dps with BLM. mantra and arcane crest even in it's nerfed state is still a strong CD especially in prog. I do feel kind of bad not going reaper for my static even if it's like a 1-2% difference, hopefully no 1% wipes lol.
Ps: you oversimplified sam's rotation to an extreme. it's skill ceiling is still as high as shb its just it's floor has gone down significantly which is great honestly.

Nothing should be top or bottom. That creates a boring as hell game, give other jobs time to shine, nothing should be a guarentee. I don't know why the uproar in a game so well balanced. I mean - once again - you clear anything with any job. A DPS composition of DNC, SMN, DRG and NIN can clear any fight in the game currently, so why the outrage?

It gets even more crazy when you think about the fact that third party tools are prohibited here, yet that is the sole reason for the majority of the forum posts on here. You all use third party tools and go to the website that tool submits its data and then come to forums to whine. If i was square I would start banning posters that even mention anything. Stop this nonsense and accept things for how they are and enjoy the blasted game.

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Originally Posted by Acece

I do agree with you that how easy or hard a job is should not be a factor in balance, it's the main reason why whm had been so bad throughout the history of the game cause it's simple to a detrimental degree. I don't mind reaper being in line with monk but Sam should still be top dps with BLM. mantra and arcane crest even in it's nerfed state is still a strong CD especially in prog. I do feel kind of bad not going reaper for my static even if it's like a 1-2% difference, hopefully no 1% wipes lol.
Ps: you oversimplified sam's rotation to an extreme. it's skill ceiling is still as high as shb its just it's floor has gone down significantly which is great honestly.

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Agree with difficulty should not be a consideration in balance. It is up to the player to perform the best for the job they chosen.
Job with no raid buff should be on top like SAM BLM

Job with raid buff should be in same segment with very same difference depend on how powerful the raid buff, e.g. dmg buff potency, dmg buff>healing or rez

Job with full uptime should be slightly below melee. So at the end Range job would have similar dps as melee in most fight within their own segment

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

I think you're conflating reaper not having depth with people who are pumping 95+ as being mediocre. Are least that's the way it's coming across. Having said that, I'd argue there is about as much depth to Reaper as there is to Samurai. There really isn't much to that job. Keep up your DoT and throw out as many midare as possible. Use Ogi in the 2 minute burn windows. Bout it. In a nut shell, Reaper is keep up DD, don't over cap resources, use Gluttony as close to CD as possible, have enough shroud to get two Communio under the two minute window. Three if you want to be a try hard when you're potting. In between, Samurai has a pretty fixed filler rotation. Reaper does not. That makes Reaper more flexible, but that doesn't mean Samurai has that much more depth. It is subjective.

You're right, I highly doubt they will add anymore depth to it until 7.0. That doesn't mean its numbers should suffer until then. Additionally, a job's dps is not determined by how easy/hard or how much depth/lack of it has. That is something the community tries to implement standards on.

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Im kinda confused by your statement, i didnt mean people who parse 95+ are mediocre, they are legit the top 5% so it wouldnt make sense lol.

What i meant is, as most ppl including you have said, is that reaper performs a lot better compared to other classes at lower skill levels, and that mediocre players of that job are rewarded a lot more than mediocre players of other classes.
I wont get into the specifics of the sam/rpr comparison too much, but i think you skipped over a really big thing that sets them apart difficulty wise, being that sam plays a lot faster, lower gcd and more ogcds to press, while reaper has the lowest cpm of all the melee and very few ogcds to press, burst window is kinda long and busy, but outside of it since you mostly just pool resources you just dont do that much, which is also the main thing i dislike about rpr playstyle wise but thats another argument, needing to press less buttons is a lot easier since it affords you a lot more time to think.

Also i think its pretty clear square enix doesnt balance around it so whatever, but reaper really does not look balanced damage wise if you sort by lower percentiles, which is what i meant with the class being easy mode for majority of players.

I dont know if they look at job representation for high end groups in savage, but i looked through a few streams and it seems like reaper, red mage and bard all locked in for basically every team, with the 4th slot being the only flex one where you see some variety, where i have seen mainly monk/sam but also drg and blm. I really dont know if this is normal, first race i am around for, but id say its pretty bad to have so many of the dps slots with a clear cut better class, especially for ranged and caster, at least most other melees seem to be good enough for the last slot.

RPR so far is for savage prog groups is basically mandatory, that's how good they are right now with both dps and utility. Red mage is always in a prog group because of easy rez access. None of the prog groups seem to care about NIN TA attack anymore and the flex slot seems to be basically either mnk or sam. I think I only saw Happy's group with a DRG.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

RPR so far is for savage prog groups is basically mandatory, that's how good they are right now with both dps and utility. Red mage is always in a prog group because of easy rez access. None of the prog groups seem to care about NIN TA attack anymore and the flex slot seems to be basically either mnk or sam. I think I only saw Happy's group with a DRG.

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Reaper is popular. Then again, so is Sage. It's not blowing Samurai out of the water though. 1.5% above Samurai in rDPS. 1.5%. 3% behind in aDPS. Seems pretty balanced to me. Additionally, monk is the top dog. Not reaper.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

Reaper is popular. Then again, so is Sage. It's not blowing Samurai out of the water though. 1.5% above Samurai in rDPS. 1.5%. 3% behind in aDPS. Seems pretty balanced to me. Additionally, monk is the top dog. Not reaper.

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lol
https://i.imgur.com/SxU7BAz.png
well one of these days you will say something that is not a complete lie, just a matter of time

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

Reaper is popular.

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I mean true, but there's popular and there's "basically impossible to find high end groups without one", it's a bit hand wavey, monk's strong and popular but plenty of groups are not running one, even those at least of those available on twitch, the world first group for the last boss of the tier didnt have one, they had a black mage as a 4th slot.

Outside the people going for world first and early clears its still really popular, if im reading that graph right only 10% of groups dont have a reaper, that doesnt seem good when you have 4 other melee jobs, what did these numbers look like in previous expansions? I'd imagine samurai was the previously most popular class but this seems a bit excessive, its got a higher play rate than ninja + dragoon + samurai

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Originally Posted by Ransu

RPR so far is for savage prog groups is basically mandatory, that's how good they are right now with both dps and utility. Red mage is always in a prog group because of easy rez access. None of the prog groups seem to care about NIN TA attack anymore and the flex slot seems to be basically either mnk or sam. I think I only saw Happy's group with a DRG.

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I do have faith that they will solve it in 6.1, I just think it sucks that we have to wait that long and that the first Savage tier will essentially be '' besmirched '' for a lack of a better term.
The balance should be better for it imo, it's very obviously unbalanced you don't need Savage data to see that.

I feel especially bad for DRG.

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

lol
https://i.imgur.com/SxU7BAz.png
well one of these days you will say something that is not a complete lie, just a matter of time

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pretty sure he meant performance, not participation. it's clearly overrepresented but really, compared to some of the more extreme overrepresantations in the past this IS fine.

mind you theres no reason for reaper with actual group support, (i.e. the heal, not dps buffs) to be over samurai without a group heal.

However, theres also no reason a class with dps buffs (purely talking dps buffs) can't offer equal raid dps compared to a "selfish" class, if anything if a class with raid dps buffs didn't actually offer higher RAID dps than the selfish class than having raid dps buffs in the first place would be a detriment. why use a class that does 10k and buffs the group for 500 if you can just take a class that does 11k by itself ?

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

lol
https://i.imgur.com/SxU7BAz.png
well one of these days you will say something that is not a complete lie, just a matter of time

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Which part is the lie, Zira? When I looked last night, Sage was sitting at 31% and SCH at 19%. Regardless, a 9% difference is pretty substantial. Trying to argue that Reaper has a 41% representation because it's overpowered is disingenuous. It has a 41% representation because everyone and their mom is playing Reaper, and they have been since EW release. I gave you the numbers on what the spread is and you still want to argue, even though those numbers paint a far different picture than what your opinion is.

Having said that. Don't call me a liar again. I may be mistaken from time to time, but I do not lie.

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Originally Posted by Akiudo

pretty sure he meant performance, not participation. it's clearly overrepresented but really, compared to some of the more extreme overrepresantations in the past this IS fine.

mind you theres no reason for reaper (with actual group support, i.e. the heal, not dps buffs) to be over samurai without a group heal.

However, theres also no reason a class with dps buffs (purely talking dps buffs) can't offer equal raid dps compared to a "selfish" class, if anything if a class with raid dps buffs didn't actually offer higher RAID dps than the selfish class than having raid dps buffs in the first place would be a detriment. why use a class that does 10k and buffs the group for 500 if you can just take a class that does 11k by itself ?

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She knows exactly what I meant. She's grasping at straws, or trying to move the goal post. I'm whatever about it. I trolled her a few days ago.

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Originally Posted by Akiudo

pretty sure he meant performance, not participation. it's clearly overrepresented but really, compared to some of the more extreme overrepresantations in the past this IS fine.

mind you theres no reason for reaper with actual group support, (i.e. the heal, not dps buffs) to be over samurai without a group heal.

However, theres also no reason a class with dps buffs (purely talking dps buffs) can't offer equal raid dps compared to a "selfish" class, if anything if a class with raid dps buffs didn't actually offer higher RAID dps than the selfish class than having raid dps buffs in the first place would be a detriment. why use a class that does 10k and buffs the group for 500 if you can just take a class that does 11k by itself ?

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Its over represented because its basically mandatory to have one in a prog group right now. RPR is over tuned and is doing way too much dps.

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Originally Posted by Scuoll

I mean true, but there's popular and there's "basically impossible to find high end groups without one", it's a bit hand wavey, monk's strong and popular but plenty of groups are not running one, even those at least of those available on twitch, the world first group for the last boss of the tier didnt have one, they had a black mage as a 4th slot.

Outside the people going for world first and early clears its still really popular, if im reading that graph right only 10% of groups dont have a reaper, that doesnt seem good when you have 4 other melee jobs, what did these numbers look like in previous expansions? I'd imagine samurai was the previously most popular class but this seems a bit excessive, its got a higher play rate than ninja + dragoon + samurai

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I can't say what the representation for Samurai was in SB. I feel like I saw them everywhere though, but that is subjective. Reaper has been over represented since release. It's the new kid on the block and it actually does solid numbers (iirc, Samurai wasn't doing so well at SB release). Regarding finding a group if you aren't a Reaper. I think the opposite is true. It's is damn near impossible to find a group as a reaper (static or PF) since there are so many. I know I'm going to struggle to the point that I will probably just start my own groups to run Savage. It's that bad on Primal.

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Originally Posted by Akiudo

However, theres also no reason a class with dps buffs (purely talking dps buffs) can't offer equal raid dps compared to a "selfish" class, if anything if a class with raid dps buffs didn't actually offer higher RAID dps than the selfish class than having raid dps buffs in the first place would be a detriment. why use a class that does 10k and buffs the group for 500 if you can just take a class that does 11k by itself ?

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That's fine the problem is when utility exists and the jobs with utility are still over the ones with zero utility, on the surface jobs like reaper and sam should do similar rDPS but then there should be an utility tax on top of that because reaper can shield themselves and heal the party, even after it's 50% nerf (lol) it's extremely good regardless of whatever the clowns in this forum say, I mean it's pretty obvious the ninja community has agreed there is absolutely no point in playing that job and it's basically dead in the water now, like I don't remember a job being this dead for this long now even after a small redesign patch, why play something that offers nothing and complexity that is heavily punished when you could instead play the autopilot job that has a better shade shift that heals the raid?

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Its over represented because its basically mandatory to have one in a prog group right now. RPR is over tuned and is doing way too much dps.

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You're like a broken record at this point. 1.5-2% on top in rDPS isn't over tuned. 2-3% behind in aDPS isn't over tuned. It's literally fourth on aDPS and second on rDPS.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

Which part is the lie, Zira? When I looked last night, Sage was sitting at 31% and SCH at 19%. Regardless, a 9% difference is pretty substantial. Trying to argue that Reaper has a 41% representation because it's overpowered is disingenuous. It has a 41% representation because everyone and their mom is playing Reaper, and they have been since EW release. I gave you the numbers on what the spread is and you still want to argue, even though those numbers paint a far different picture than what your opinion is.

Having said that. Don't call me a liar again. I may be mistaken from time to time, but I do not lie.

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sorry but you called AC balanced several times in multiple posts and defended it even in additional posts even after people posted irrefutable evidence that it was broken and then got the biggest nerf in the 0.5 history of the game, that makes you a troll (you even admitted that), a liar and so wrong that everything you say basically means nothing anymore

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

That's fine the problem is when utility exists and the jobs with utility are still over the ones with zero utility, on the surface jobs like reaper and sam should do similar rDPS but then there should be an utility tax on top of that because reaper can shield themselves and heal the party, even after it's 50% nerf (lol) it's extremely good regardless of whatever the clowns in this forum say, I mean it's pretty obvious the ninja community has agreed there is absolutely no point in playing that job and it's basically dead in the water now, like I don't remember a job being this dead for this long now even after a small redesign patch, why play something that offers nothing and complexity that is heavily punished when you could instead play the autopilot job that has a better shade shift that heals the raid?

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So give the rest of the melee something. You're argument is weak. You're basically saying that Reaper should do the lowest because it's got a 250p regen for the group and the rest don't. Ain't no one bringing a Reaper to the raid for their shield. It's a cherry on top.

In the end, you're salty and butt hurt. We get it.

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

sorry but you called AC balanced several times in multiple posts and defended it even in additional posts even after people posted irrefutable evidence that it was broken and then got the biggest nerf in the 0.5 history of the game, that makes you a troll (you even admitted that), a liar and so wrong that everything you say basically means nothing anymore

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It don't make me a liar. It makes me trolling, which I self admitted to. I knew it was going to get nerfed. Keep trying to discredit me, but you're going to just keep losing. Keep up the salt. I love it.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

So give the rest of the melee something. You're argument is weak. You're basically saying that Reaper should do the lowest because it's got a 250p regen for the group and the rest don't. Ain't no one bringing a Reaper to the raid for their shield. It's a cherry on top.

In the end, you're salty and butt hurt. We get it.

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I think the argument is sound, 40 pages seem to represent I'm not the only one that thinks it's unfair and I may be salty but at least I'm not liar and an obfuscator .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akiudo

pretty sure he meant performance, not participation. it's clearly overrepresented but really, compared to some of the more extreme overrepresantations in the past this IS fine.

mind you theres no reason for reaper with actual group support, (i.e. the heal, not dps buffs) to be over samurai without a group heal.

However, theres also no reason a class with dps buffs (purely talking dps buffs) can't offer equal raid dps compared to a "selfish" class, if anything if a class with raid dps buffs didn't actually offer higher RAID dps than the selfish class than having raid dps buffs in the first place would be a detriment. why use a class that does 10k and buffs the group for 500 if you can just take a class that does 11k by itself ?

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If a selfish dps does the same or less rDPS as every class with raidbuffs then you never get any more damage from taking these damage focussed jobs. The reason being raid buffs are multiplicative, so adding another job with a generally higher rDPS and a raidbuff will result in a higher total raid damage than including one of those lower rDPS selfish classes, made more potent a difference as you align burst windows with each other/the fight more efficiently and accurately.

Did they design themselves into a bit of a hole? Yeah probably, but ultimately (when balancing with the very top performers in mind) selfish classes should have a bit more rDPS (especially SAM over RPR as RPR has a heal) to actually fulfil their role of being there to deal damage. As long as there are only two, and their rDPS isn't significantly ahead of any other job, then every DPS job has a place to perform without another job being an obvious substitution (player preference aside).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

That's fine the problem is when utility exists and the jobs with utility are still over the ones with zero utility, on the surface jobs like reaper and sam should do similar rDPS but then there should be an utility tax on top of that because reaper can

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care to tell me why you cut of the part where i literally stated

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akiudo

mind you theres no reason for reaper with actual group support, (i.e. the heal, not dps buffs) to be over samurai without a group heal.

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?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tearagion

If a selfish dps does the same or less rDPS as every class with raidbuffs then you never get any more damage from taking these damage focussed jobs. The reason being raid buffs are multiplicative, so adding another job with a generally higher rDPS and a raidbuff will result in a higher total raid damage than including one of those lower rDPS selfish classes, made more potent a difference as you align burst windows with each other/the fight more efficiently and accurately.

Did they design themselves into a bit of a hole? Yeah probably, but ultimately (when balancing with the very top performers in mind) selfish classes should have a bit more rDPS (especially SAM over RPR as RPR has a heal) to actually fulfil their role of being there to deal damage. As long as there are only two, and their rDPS isn't significantly ahead of any other job, then every DPS job has a place to perform.

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Samurai and BLM topping rDPS was busted. It meant their aDPS was so far above the others that the buffed damage (which is given to the buffer) still wasn't enough to cover the spread. That is straight up busted. If people knew how to read the brackets this wouldn't be an issue, but they don't. They look at what fflogs uses for rankings and says that how things are, when it is not the case.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akiudo

pretty sure he meant performance, not participation. it's clearly overrepresented but really, compared to some of the more extreme overrepresantations in the past this IS fine.

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Im genuinely curious about this part, is this normal? In the current raid tier 3/4 dps slots seem hard locked for serious groups (rpr rdm bard), and right now 1 melee has more representation than 3 of them combined, which to me seems less than ideal, was it like this for example in stormblood when samurai just came out? Or in shb with the strongest class? I know back in the day there were weird things going on with raid buffs/debuffs where some classes had more sinergy, i am talking about recent years.

Coming over from wow i heard a lot of people saying the balance is better, but this seems pretty.. solved? Like all high end groups clearly agree that these 3 jobs are more valuable, i wouldnt say its good balance if all your composition building creativity is limited to the 4th slot. I can understand rdm because spammable instant cast rez is actually a unique upside which other classes dont have access to, in this thread we talked a lot about arcane crest but you cant even really quantify how good spammable rez on a dps is.
No clue about bard, and reaper does still have more utility than the other melees, even if it got nerfed its still more than 0 i guess.
Reaper's overall representation is a byproduct of a lot of things for sure, new, flashy, edgy fantasy, whatever, but i think the people going for world first dont care that much about that and just want the best shot at killing the boss fast

Patch notes were in a good direction, but maybe more changes were needed to shake up the rankings more? It would be cool to see more variety even at the top end.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

Regarding finding a group if you aren't a Reaper. I think the opposite is true. It's is damn near impossible to find a group as a reaper (static or PF) since there are so many. I know I'm going to struggle to the point that I will probably just start my own groups to run Savage. It's that bad on Primal.

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Oh i absolutely agree, idk where you got this from.
In fact in my very first post on the thread you'll see i made the same argument in that reaper taking a slight popularity hit would probably be a good thing for those who are into the fantasy/animation of the class, since it will still probably be the most popular class no matter what, and it would make it more tolerable for those who genuinely enjoy reaper's fantasy instead of the output.
I am not sure about how many people would quit it if it was nerfed,not unreasonably, but to maybe middle of the pack as the 3rd/4th best melee within a tight margin, like -3% from the number 1 or whatever.

Its also part of my point of why having a class so overrepresented in its role its probably a bad thing, if you can bring 5 and one is chosen over a third of the time its probably causing issues elsewhere aswell. Ofc i dont want people to stop enjoying it if they like it, but at the same time i also think it actually is not good for the overall game

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

I think the argument is sound, 40 pages seem to represent I'm not the only one that thinks it's unfair and I may be salty but at least I'm not liar and an obfuscator .

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You're just going to keep running your mouth aren't you? That's the internet for you. For the record, a consensus don't make it right. Like really, are you trying to appeal to the masses as your justification? The masses used to be sure that the earth was flat at one time too. How'd that work out?

You're arguing that Reaper is over tuned. I provided you numbers that refute that. You then completely ignore the numbers and opt to move the goal post. So tell me, what percentage should Reaper drop because of this game breaking defensive that Reaper has?

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Originally Posted by tearagion

If a selfish dps does the same or less rDPS as every class with raidbuffs then you never get any more damage from taking these damage focussed jobs. The reason being raid buffs are multiplicative, so adding another job with a generally higher rDPS and a raidbuff will result in a higher total raid damage than including one of those lower rDPS selfish classes, made more potent a difference as you align burst windows with each other/the fight more efficiently and accurately.

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see but thats exactly the point, the classes with raid (dps) buffs NEED to actually deal more RAID dps in the perfect scenario or they will in fact allways be worse. the fact that they gain more by having an optimized group means they also lose more by having a group that isn't perfectly optimized.
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lets say classes had no "support", i.e. heals, shields, rezzes and whatnot, only dps buffs. exactly because raid buffs can and do stack to the high heavens you can now

1) make it so in a "perfect" scenario the buffers actually offer more raid dps meaning they will be stronger at the top and than get overtaken relatively early on when you go lower

or

2)you make it so that even in that case the "pure classes" do more meaning they will simply allways be stronger.

acting like samurais being overtaken at 95% while still being stronger everytime before is an issue but samurai simply allways being the stronger choice is actually good design is turning raidbuffs into an detriment.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

The masses used to be sure that the earth was flat at one time too. How'd that work out?

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so just like the reaper masses saying AC was not overpowered, how'd that work out?

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

You're arguing that Reaper is over tuned. I provided you numbers that refute that. You then completely ignore the numbers and opt to move the goal post. So tell me, what percentage should Reaper drop because of this game breaking defensive that Reaper has?

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No you haven't, you just compared reaper with monk which is also overtuned and called it balanced, then you compared it with sam and ignored the fact reaper can heal the raid.

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Originally Posted by Scuoll

Oh i absolutely agree, idk where you got this from.
In fact in my very first post on the thread you'll see i made the same argument in that reaper taking a slight popularity hit would probably be a good thing for those who are into the fantasy/animation of the class, since it will still probably be the most popular class no matter what, and it would make it more tolerable for those who genuinely enjoy reaper's fantasy instead of the output.
I am not sure about how many people would quit it if it was nerfed,not unreasonably, but to maybe middle of the pack as the 3rd/4th best melee within a tight margin, like -3% from the number 1 or whatever.

Its also part of my point of why having a class so overrepresented in its role its probably a bad thing, if you can bring 5 and one is chosen over a third of the time its probably causing issues elsewhere aswell. Ofc i dont want people to stop enjoying it if they like it, but at the same time i also think it actually is not good for the overall game

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It is the 3rd best melee. Sam, Monk, and Reaper are tuned pretty tight in the aDPS department, and that is why you see the tuning being tight in rDPS (1.5-2%). The issue, is that Dragoon and Ninja still seem to be under performing. Like, it's not even close. That's a problem. Their aDPS needs to be brought up to bring them closer in rDPS. That's just how it works.