New summoner is unacceptable

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Maybe, but one version had 8 years of history and solid fan base who feel betrayed by this redesign. It would be like me to ask that a job I don't play be completely redesign to my whims, and to hell with the people that currently enjoy it. I think your argument would have held up better with 2.0 when all jobs were new and fresh, were nobody had in vested ties to it.

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If you were heavily invested in a poison mage with summons tacked on then Summoner was never the class for you to begin with. 8 years of history in this game where many regarded it as the worst Summoner in all of Final Fantasy is nothing to 20+ years of games where Summoners have a focus on Summon Magic.

I agree that a betrayal happened but it happened 8 years ago when they decided to twist Summoner into a WoW Warlock clone that ultimately failed. It even had "demons" in its description for goodness sake.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

If you were heavily invested in a poison mage with summons tacked on then Summoner was never the class for you to begin with. 8 years of history in this game where many regarded it as the worst Summoner in all of Final Fantasy is nothing to 20+ years of games where Summoners have a focus on Summon Magic.

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Doesn't really matter what "summoner" means to you though, if it wasn't a real summoner or if you find it too similar to other class in another game, it was a class that a lot of people enjoyed and stayed in the game for years and people are allowed to have opinions regarding it. Dancer is nothing like the dancer from FFT and that doesn't mean that it doesn't belong in this game and people aren't allowed to like it.

Besides, this argument isn't very strong imo since again a lot of the "summoner" crisis was mostly aesthetic. They could fix the aesthetic part without compromising other forms of gameplay or even proposing a gameplay that might feel more on the middle ground while keeping whatever identity they wanted for summoner through aesthetic.

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Originally Posted by Melorie

Doesn't really matter what "summoner" means to you though, if it wasn't a real summoner or if you find it too similar to other class in another game, it was a class that a lot of people enjoyed and stayed in the game for years and people are allowed to have opinions regarding it. Dancer is nothing like the dancer from FFT and that doesn't mean that it doesn't belong in this game and people aren't allowed to like it.

Besides, this argument isn't very strong imo since again a lot of the "summoner" crisis was mostly aesthetic. They could fix the aesthetic part without compromising other forms of gameplay or even proposing a gameplay that might feel more on the middle ground while keeping whatever identity they wanted for summoner through aesthetic.

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So, re-implement previous summoner as the DoT mage job that it always was, with the feeble attempts at summoning aesthetics removed, and allow people to have the "complex", DoT-based DD they always had? I am all for that. Summoner and that job should go in completely different directions, but sure, I'd be all for implementing aspects of the job that people liked in another form. Necromancer would work with the DoT archetype, and you'd get cute little skeletons or something?

I thoroughly enjoy and appreciate the Summoner rework and I believe it is the right track.

However, the rework feels incomplete.

Furthermore, the rework has exposed how terrible and out of place Aetherflow stacking is. A unique resource which only has 2 usable skills as options. I believe a good path for the summoner is:

1. Expansion of the Aetherflow system with newly added skills and utility skills.
2. AOE Heavy

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

poison mage

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I really don't understand where this is coming from. From a lore perspective Bio and Miasma (which aren't poisons tbf) made perfect sense. The whole concept of a summoner is they drain someone's incorporeal aether and use it to summon a primal. Hell, it's the core idea behind a lot of this game's lore. The claims of poison mage or wow warlock or whatever make no sense to me.

I can understand not liking the mechanics of the old summoner. It certainly had its flaws but summoning bahamut and phoniex absolutely made people feel like a summoner.

Also, I don't understand why these three new elemental summons make you feel like a summoner now when before you didn't. It's not like they are brand new pets. I used both ifrit and garuda day to day. Poor titan needed work. I didn't even use him while solo anymore. I feel like these new elemental summons are just low tier trash. Why aren't we summoning Alexander, Diablos or Knights of the Round? All of which we've seen in game.

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Originally Posted by Chocobits

So, re-implement previous summoner as the DoT mage job that it always was, with the feeble attempts at summoning aesthetics removed, and allow people to have the "complex", DoT-based DD they always had? I am all for that. Summoner and that job should go in completely different directions, but sure, I'd be all for implementing aspects of the job that people liked in another form. Necromancer would work with the DoT archetype, and you'd get cute little skeletons or something?

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That's actually a good idea, imo. Personally, throwing away the mechanics of summoner altogether is a waste, the game obviously have a rigid combat so killing the few combat ""formulas"" we have isn't a smart choice. They could clean it up and make something out of it. Hopefully next expac? But I don't blame people that mained the class because they enjoyed the flow of the class somewhat and are feeling frustrated.

AST was completely changed on SHB and I'm still not over it tbh.

“bottom of the barrel players” i didn’t know this is a job or a competition that we had to prove something as players/gamers.

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Originally Posted by Melorie

Doesn't really matter what "summoner" means to you though

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Then the same could be said to all of those who keep complaining that Affliction Warlock has been finally removed from the game. In any case dot gameplay was too boring to be stuck onto a class like Summoner anyway.

Perhaps if that crowd were able to behave more reasonably they might get their dot caster class of their dreams added into 7.0. But if I had to choose between adding another limited job or a dot caster at this rate I probably lean more towards another limited job, because those fans are nowhere near as "enthusiastic" as some of the affliction warlocks that we have left behind that routinely verbally abuse and insult others by attacking their level of competency and intelligence.

So yeah, maybe pandering to this crowd of players who *believe* themselves to be the best was not such a good idea to begin with.

Can we go one page without the attacks, please?

Like seriously, if you have nothing but jabs to say about the side that you aren't on, just don't say it.
No one said they were better because they enjoyed the old iteration or anything of the sorts. As I see nothing of that verbal abuse, no.

What I see is the other side continuously attacking and even slinging verbal assaults whenever they try to make a point as to why they like it or when they are faced with counter arguments.

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

Also, I don't understand why these three new elemental summons make you feel like a summoner now when before you didn't. It's not like they are brand new pets. I used both ifrit and garuda day to day. Poor titan needed work. I didn't even use him while solo anymore. I feel like these new elemental summons are just low tier trash. Why aren't we summoning Alexander, Diablos or Knights of the Round? All of which we've seen in game.

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Because now the job revolves around Summoning instead of poison. All of your damage is front loaded into the act of Summoning. Keeping your pet out, instant casting the pet, and never having to actually Summon it but out of combat or after death failed to deliver on job fantasy. As you say, Titan needed work, but that is because they couldn’t balance all three of the pets against eachother. It was very unclear where to use which Summon in the correct situation, and god forbid you use Titan. One was always the best to use regardless because of their nature as pets. Now, that they simply appear and cast, there is a reason to use all three, especially in situational context.

We could perhaps see more out of other Summons down the line, I feel that was alluded to by the Magus Sisters dungeon. Since the MSQ is over I hope they put more focus on secondary systems that never got to see the light of day, like new Summons. I was hoping the addition of Shiva, Ramuh, and Leviathan could deepens the job mechanics with Astral/Umbral attunement depending on which 3 you Summon. Here’s hoping for level 100.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

So yeah, maybe pandering to this crowd of players who *believe* themselves to be the best was not such a good idea to begin with.

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Again this is not about a certain crowd vs the rest. I haven't seen anyone thinking they are the best or something like that? People played with a job for years and that job was changed dramatically without any regard for the mechanics it had, they are allowed to have an opinion regarding it and even mourn the job. You guys gotta stop this little war inside your mind.

Also what about "if they behave reasonably"? Summoner from 2.0, 3.0, 4.0 and 5.0 was created by Square Enix, not by warlock fans or whatever. I don't know why you are mad with people that played something Square gave them and liked it, honestly.

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Originally Posted by AceofRains

Because now the job revolves around Summoning instead of poison.

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The job revolved around the bahamut and phoenix dps windows. It was core to the job. At least at 80. They were also the coolest parts of being a summoner. Hell, they were the coolest parts of any job in the game (and still are). The existence of DoTs doesn't change that.

To be honest I'm glad the dots are gone. Overall they were not good mechanically. A cast time on a damage over time spell? Refreshing the duration by using other abilities? Are you nuts SE?

Also, none of this negates the problems with the new job.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

Nah, people are upset because some enjoy playstyles that have a bit of depth and a higher skill ceiling to work towards. But, SE keeps removing this depth and offering nothing in return. It was Machinist last expansion, and this expansion it's Summoner.

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They are really just reworking messy classes.

Meh, I get the sense that most of the complainers are complaining because they absolutely hate it one others enjoy the rework and they don't. How dare Square Enix caters to the filthy casuals, and so forth. Most everyone, from newcomers to those who mained the SMN job since 2.0 has complained that the job is a butchered form of the Summoner. Square Enix listened and gave us the job we had always wanted. Know that Square Enix will never roll back a job once they have reworked it. Also know the the Devs don't read the english forums anyway, they only pay attention to the Japanese forums, which if I last recall were overwhelmingly in favor of the rework. I, for one, am glad to be on the side of the winners and not the losers. I am making big bucks this week with all of the salt mining going on.

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Originally Posted by eva3071

Meh, I get the sense that most of the complainers are complaining because they absolutely hate it one others enjoy the rework and they don't. How dare Square Enix caters to the filthy casuals, and so forth. Most everyone, from newcomers to those who mained the SMN job since 2.0 has complained that the job is a butchered form of the Summoner. Square Enix listened and gave us the job we had always wanted. Know that Square Enix will never roll back a job once they have reworked it. Also know the the Devs don't read the english forums anyway, they only pay attention to the Japanese forums, which if I last recall were overwhelmingly in favor of the rework. I, for one, am glad to be on the side of the winners and not the losers. I am making big bucks this week with all of the salt mining going on.

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To be fair if you played a class for 8 years for it to be completely reworked into some different that you don't care you. You would be upset. I have played summoner in every expansion, I don't share the opinion with many on this forum. I think summoner got worst with every expansion with Shadowbringers being the worst state it has ever been in. Sure the summoner numbers were good but over all game play I thought was reached a new level of bad for it. In fact I am not sure many of you remember that the egi assult skills were OGCD on release which was extremely clunky and weird. Once that was fixed the class did feel better but was not for me. This forum has really turned into complexity vs simplicity. Summoner honestly was not a complex class, it was a clunky class with an extremely long opener.

As far as people spouting out its being homogenized like all the other classes. Sadly the only roles that are truely homogenized are the tanks and heals. All dps classes feel very unique but sadly share the same utility.

I personally like new summoner and think it needed to be redesigned. Hopefully we will get some further changes in future patches to make this class function better and become more appealing to everyone.

I played 5.0 summoner as my first level 80 and man was I questioning what went on in the design room by the time I had maxed out that class. The fixes it got later on just didn't do enough to win me back over to the class.

If that was "complexity" then I'd rather play 6.0 summoner any day. Complexity should come from the difficulty of the battle content you want to do, not your rotation. Rotations should have good flow and not hurt your hands to execute.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Complexity should come from the difficulty of the battle content you want to do, not your rotation. Rotations should have good flow and not hurt your hands to execute.

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What I feel like most people say when they want depth or complexity isn't making a class hard to learn or inaccessible, but being able to feel like you have a learning curve and are improving with it. For most content of the game, you can clear it without ever even reading about your rotation. Fights are limited. They are scripted, they are out of your control. There are few per tier, and most of the time you aren't doing current content all the time (specially if you play casually). And your favourite fights, as time goes on, and gear power creep grows, gets easier and easier. Look at Thordan normal mode nowadays, it's basically a visual novel.

Once you get the hang of a fight, having a new layer of actually optimizing your class is another possibility for having fun. If your rotation is actually something that keeps you interested, you might have fun even in content you already know, such as an expert roulette for example, or a trial that you have done over and over again.

There must be a difference between a good summoner and a bad summoner and a o-kayish summoner. Not so you can feel better than others, but so you can have something to improve in yourself and in your gameplay that it's also something you can control. The class doesn't need to be clunky or full of buttons in order to do that, but more often than not (and I say that as a healer main), SE simply decides to flatten the entire building. You don't have builds in this game, specs, your gear is far from being customizable besides a few materia and there's not a huge amount of decision-making from your part into a huge part of the game. Actually having room to grow and get better at playing YOUR CLASS and not a specific fight is a valuable gameplay aspect that many people enjoy, and you don't need to be a hardcore to enjoy these things. It's not being elitist, hardcore nor anything like that, it's actually not unusual to feel this need for control while playing an RPG. I hardly do savage let alone extreme and still, I don't see why a class has to be simplified to the point that there's zero room for learning and improving inside it aside from doing a very rigid rotation, without ever managing resources or doing any sort of decision.

Just got to 90*. Summoned my first Titan. Having his bouldery butt landslide some fools was pretty damn cool. Regardless of the flaws this job might have this won't stop being cool for some time.

Also, Crimson Strike should 100%, unequivocally, without a doubt be off the GCD.

Carby really does need something lol (in a non-serious yet awkward way). So quirky to 'watch' carby exist.

Reminds me of that robot in rick in morty.

"What is my purpose?"

"You pass the butter"

Carby: "oh my god...."

IF possible I think it might be neat if Carby never vanishes (even when you summon other stuff). Then the carby spells are always accessible. The only reason not to do that, besides maybe coding issues, would be if carby dedicated spells might be trait changed later. Then I'd say give carby Sic, where if carby is on guard perhaps carby will occasionally do very light buffing and curing to you. Sic will cause carby to your target, (visually, meaninglessly visually so) but this boosts your damage lightly (I say this so therefore ghosting and such is not real, simply having carby on sic will boost your dps.. and it 'looks' like it's due to carby attacking lol). When you summon primals you can have the gem on carby's head glow the color of that primal.

Or something else too!

I love discussing (FF) summoner, while I'm not upset like some people are here, I just think it's a fascinating job / concept (and I don't particularly like seeing people upset, especially if I think tweaks exist that might keep everyone, or at least most, happy).

Plan messing with it more, soon I really want to try the different ranges out. Come back with even better understanding of my own feedback and others. Just... so many things to do.. so long of a login queue to fight.. lol.

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

I really don't understand where this is coming from. From a lore perspective Bio and Miasma (which aren't poisons tbf) made perfect sense. The whole concept of a summoner is they drain someone's incorporeal aether and use it to summon a primal. Hell, it's the core idea behind a lot of this game's lore. The claims of poison mage or wow warlock or whatever make no sense to me.

I can understand not liking the mechanics of the old summoner. It certainly had its flaws but summoning bahamut and phoniex absolutely made people feel like a summoner.

Also, I don't understand why these three new elemental summons make you feel like a summoner now when before you didn't. It's not like they are brand new pets. I used both ifrit and garuda day to day. Poor titan needed work. I didn't even use him while solo anymore. I feel like these new elemental summons are just low tier trash. Why aren't we summoning Alexander, Diablos or Knights of the Round? All of which we've seen in game.

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Where were you when I needed you! lol. Back when ARR released I was trying to explain how we could get larger primals, using damage from our spells leaving aether in the air, with battery gameplay mechanics to then expend that energy (though I thought a visual pyre fly, FFX, would have been really neat), and particularly I had described using bahamut's left over energy as well. Many major lore players were telling me how it was impossible (due to lore), or how I wanted 1:1 scale primals (when I just wanted more like FFXI avatar scale). At the time it was weirdly one sides with only a couple for big primals and a lot on the side of the lore saying it's not possible so it can't / wont happen.

I definitely feel the devs listen to feedback, in part due to this job. I understand there are a lot of ways to do the job, and I've never been too strict on the mechanical side personally (thematic presentation is always my major focus), so I can see how it's a pain in the bum job to do. Particularly as it seems their program / code doesn't want to handle the pet side of things smoothly, ghosting. . .

But I do think kindly feedback, suggesting stuff, and 'why' is very much worth while (as they might not do what you want exactly but understanding why you wanted something might lead in a direction that is still appreciated). I say kindly as in not telling people to lose their jobs and stuff, but naturally saying you don't like something might seem rude when that isn't the intention.

Personally I think the job is in a pretty good spot to make changes to (good canvas), as in since we're not stacks on stacks systems I think changes are a bit less calculous based and scary lol. Also I think the eagerness to use morphing skills is interesting and potentially opens up even more fun (especially if we slide down some of the changes, opening up later stuff).

I'm enjoying 6.0 summoner so far at 8x but have a few nitpicks.

- I miss instant cast ruin 2 for moments when the mob/boss is at 0.5% and I'm all out of instants. There is nothing to do but cry and press ruin IV and see the cast cancelled anyway because someone auto attacked it to death.
- Carby is pretty much useless.... and isn't summoned when you sync down... He's there to look pretty but give him something to do please???
- Egi summons pathfinding for their initial hit is... sad. They move slowly (titan and ifrit), will run back to you when their mob dies before they can land the hit and then run to the next mob.
- Atherflow and the two skills are very extra. It feels clunky to have to juggle it alongside the normal rotation.

I have no problem with the removal of dots or making the job overall giga easy.

I have a problem with making carbuncle completely cosmetic. It just...sits there. Just as easily the 2 spells (shield and group buff) are tied to it, you could just... make it not.

I understand the old version had issues such as input delays, but if you just make it auto attack only there shouldnt be a real issue. Please i Just want to have a combat pet in some capacity and not just watch my carbuncle wiggle beside me being useless.

From what I have tried of Summoner. I actually prefer it now - more than ever. It feels less like a clone of other jobs from other games that came before it and more like it has its own identity. The fact that my carbuncle is only there for support is more traditional for a Carbuncle in the franchise as a whole anyway. They normally pop out, shield or buff you. Then go away. So the fact that that's all it can do now is more fitting to what it's always been known for doing. I feel like an actual Summoner now! Constantly summoning things - with the added benefit of being able to channel those summons powers for a duration of time or a certain number of stacks. It may be less complicated, and easier now than it ever has been. But it is so nice to see it come into its own, with its own identity. Not just some clone of a pet using class from other games.

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Originally Posted by Cherishes

I'm enjoying 6.0 summoner so far at 8x but have a few nitpicks.

- I miss instant cast ruin 2 for moments when the mob/boss is at 0.5% and I'm all out of instants. There is nothing to do but cry and press ruin IV and see the cast cancelled anyway because someone auto attacked it to death.
- Carby is pretty much useless.... and isn't summoned when you sync down... He's there to look pretty but give him something to do please???
- Egi summons pathfinding for their initial hit is... sad. They move slowly (titan and ifrit), will run back to you when their mob dies before they can land the hit and then run to the next mob.
- Atherflow and the two skills are very extra. It feels clunky to have to juggle it alongside the normal rotation.

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Unfortunately though, if they remove Aetherflow and Ressurection for Summoners - that would mean it would be removed from Arcanist... which would also remove them for Scholar as well. I think it's just easier to keep them for Arcanist though. Because they don't have as many options for damage like a Summoner does.

My only criticism is how useless Carbuncle feels. It doesn't do anything at all. I'm sure it would have been completely removed if it wasn't so marketable and wasn't so deeply linked to the identity of the Arcanist class.

I just want it to do something, anything. I'd even be fine with giving it selene/eos' embrace ability. That would help strengthen the link between SMN and SCH, and it would help open the door for SCH to get a fairy glamour command to turn their fairies into carbuncles.

Honestly, I really like the reworked summoner. I feel like they've created an incredibly mobile mage based class with it. As for complexity and rotation, sure it's on the simpler side, and that's why you've got blm if you want extra complexity.

For what it's worth, I think there are certain important timing things that you need to take into consideration. Making sure you hit your damage buff before you summon bahamut, making sure you get your ifrit rotation inside the damage buff, making sure you are using the fester in the right place, as well as addle. It takes two hotbars for me, and I definitely don't have ruin spam right at the start. Look, if you are in the early levels of course it's going to be simple (all of the jobs are) but that's always been the case. You don't get your full rotation at lvl 1, and shouldn't expect to do so either.

I like it and enjoy playing it.

I noticed the level 90 elemental summons don't have the same problems as the pre-90 egi's. When a level 90 primal is summoned, it spawns next to the player then does it attack right where is spawns. No travel times and the AoE is centered on the player's target. So the level 90 elemental summons work like pre-90 garuda. This is great.

I think this is my final verdict. The job is acceptable but only at level 90. I think crimson strike absolutely needs to be moved off the GCD. Then something needs to be done to make summoning the elemental summons a bit more fluid. I think I will stick with the summoner as my main but I will definitely be leveling some alts to do pre-90 content.

Been leveling SMN a bit on the side and oof, there's not much here

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

I noticed the level 90 elemental summons don't have the same problems as the pre-90 egi's. When a level 90 primal is summoned, it spawns next to the player then does it attack right where is spawns. No travel times and the AoE is centered on the player's target. So the level 90 elemental summons work like pre-90 garuda. This is great.

I think this is my final verdict. The job is acceptable but only at level 90. I think crimson strike absolutely needs to be moved off the GCD. Then something needs to be done to make summoning the elemental summons a bit more fluid. I think I will stick with the summoner as my main but I will definitely be leveling some alts to do pre-90 content.

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I have to assume thats just a relic of how the egi's functioned as a pet, since they are basically doing the same old animations as when you commanded them to do those attacks. They basically just need to apply what the garuda-egi does, to the ifrit & titan egis. Hopefully its something that will be adjusted, though at least with the 90 one's thats not an issue but should definitely apply retroactively.

Thank god for the summoner changes, old summoner was genuinely unpleasant to play.

New sunmoner is fantastic. Actually feels like a sunmoner. Rotation is easy to learn and logical.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

Like more than half of the opener, the busiest part of your rotation, is just pressing 1 (ruin). The job practically plays itself, with virtually zero room for optimization. There is virtually no fail state either. It's also basically a one-hotbar job.

I sincerely hope Square Enix does not think this is the way to go for all future jobs. This is embarrassingly unacceptable even from a casual perspective.

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OK, like I'm having a seizure from reading some of the comments in this thread.

I like the aesthetics and theme of the new Summoner. What I don't like is that it basically feels unfinished and is about as complex as an amoeba.

I don't care that much about DoT management. I don't care that much about pet micros. I don't have an attachment to old SMN.

Removing those aspects is fine in itself, if they actually offered a meaty replacement. But they did not. SMN right now is a barebones one-hotbar job with zero complexity to speak of.

Why are we not adding more skills in each Summon window that is more than just press 1 or Gemshine? How about using Fire, Wind, and Earth attunements to meaningfully change what you can do in a Bahamut window? What about varied gameplay within

Current SMN is just a braindead job that any monkey with two brain cells can play. Not only that but it just feels like it's unfinished. This is the real problem. Again, the problem isn't the lack of DoTs or clunky pet AI. The problem is that this new iteration is unfinished.

Edit 2:

The more I play current SMN, the more I just feel a sense of pity. The base design of 6.0 SMN is really great. But it desperately needs more than the base. What we got in 6.0 feels like what you get at Lv50 or Lv60. It does not feel like a Lv90 job. There is so much potential, but they just squandered it.

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New summoner is an improvement. You have not clue what you are talking about lol. Your opinion btw also does not have to be the way to think for everyone else. It's not like we waited for you to judge.

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Originally Posted by DontReadThis

My only criticism is how useless Carbuncle feels. It doesn't do anything at all. I'm sure it would have been completely removed if it wasn't so marketable and wasn't so deeply linked to the identity of the Arcanist class.

I just want it to do something, anything. I'd even be fine with giving it selene/eos' embrace ability. That would help strengthen the link between SMN and SCH, and it would help open the door for SCH to get a fairy glamour command to turn their fairies into carbuncles.

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I am completely of the mind that carbuncle shouldn't peace out when you do your other summons, and instead should be tied to aetherflow somehow. (And that aetherflow shouldn't just be direct damage buttons, but have some kind of significant interaction with the rest of your rotation)
(also somehow make it be able to cast the ogcds while moving. I'm actually seeing pretty consistent ghosting while moving)

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Originally Posted by NaesakiAshwell

I have to assume thats just a relic of how the egi's functioned as a pet, since they are basically doing the same old animations as when you commanded them to do those attacks. They basically just need to apply what the garuda-egi does, to the ifrit & titan egis. Hopefully its something that will be adjusted, though at least with the 90 one's thats not an issue but should definitely apply retroactively.

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I think you're right. The egis do feel the same as they did before 6.0. I think they are using the exact same spells cast during Egi-Assault I/II.

Let's hope they do makes some changes for pre-90 gameplay. I know SE officially says they don't make major adjustments during an expansion. Hopefully they can make an exception for abilities that are strictly pre-90 since they don't affect raiding.

EDIT words

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Originally Posted by KiraJ

New summoner is an improvement. You have not clue what you are talking about lol. Your opinion btw also does not have to be the way to think for everyone else. It's not like we waited for you to judge.

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Nah, it's a straight downgrade for anyone who wants a rotation with an actual skill ceiling.

Lol being traited of egocentric just because I stated my opinion, some old summoners need to chill out. Like ppl said many times in this thread 'If you don't like it don't play it'. The complaints won't change anything until next expasion and by that time the devs will have probably a lot of metrics to see if ppl enjoy the new summoner or not.

The more that those fans of old summoner continue to belittle and demean people who like new Summoner the worse their position looks. Imagine spending the launch of an expansion spreading such negativity out into the world.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

The more that those fans of old summoner continue to belittle and demean people who like new Summoner the worse their position looks. Imagine spending the launch of an expansion spreading such negativity out into the world.

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I've been reading this thread from the beginning. You've done your fair share of helping to spread negativity by mostly dumping on people that don't share your opinion on the new summoner. Please, take your own advice and do something else.

Just waiting in queu so this is quite entertaining but Rin_Kuroi you are not much better either imo

I followed most of this post too and something I did not see anyone talking much about are if they are on keyboard or not when playing the old summoner. I am on gamepad and I find the new summoner better suited for the gamepad

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

I've been reading this thread from the beginning. You've done your fair share of helping to spread negativity by mostly dumping on people that don't share your opinion on the new summoner. Please, take your own advice and do something else.

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You can choose to interpret my statements however you wish. That does not change the fact that quite a number of affliction warlock summoners are the ones who are attacking people's level of skill based on whether they like the new version of the class or not. They generally come across as unreasonable if not downright disconnected from the generally accepted state of affairs that prior to 6.0 Summoner was just...weird.

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Originally Posted by Lloyd777

I followed most of this post too and something I did not see anyone talking much about are if they are on keyboard or not when playing the old summoner. I am on gamepad and I find the new summoner better suited for the gamepad

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I remember playing old Summoner on controller at the start of Shadowbringers. Would not recommend.