The WOL and Mass Murder

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

Oddly enough, I was playing through the Main Story Quest "In from the cold" yesterday on an alt and ran across this interesting bit at the start of the duty:

"The tempered imperial has breathed his last ...
You offer a silent prayer for the deceased.
Were you in possession of your own body, you may have had the capacity to subdue rather than slay this tempered soldier."

Those who tend toward the belief that the Warrior of Light is a blood-thirsty murderer, take note.

---

That's about control, not brute force. It refers to finesse, it says nothing about the WoL's state of mind or preferences. We didn't knock out the Praetorium soldiers, why would we spare these particular Garleans?

And 'afore you go on about how they were in control of their wits in contrast to these ones being tempered, one can easily argue that the guys in the Praetorium were ALSO brainwashed. By Emperor Solus' and Garlean nationalist propaganda. It tends to happen when you subjugate virgin territories and raise your enemies children to bring their parents down. ;3

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lord_Umbra

In Stormblood after taking the bridge we hunt down cowering Imperials who had fled barely able to stand defend themselves & murder them only for few quest later to save an Imperial after shoot their own during battle & again later we kill more after Castrum before Ala Mhigo that hiding in shadows, the game constantly sends mixed messages.

Also you get option in Heavensward to say you'll rip out Zepheryn heart & give Thordan & boys a cold death stare as he questions what we are.

---

Personally, I headcanoned that my WoL vowed to slay them ALL, not just Zephirin. Let's just say that Lord Horse Fart's demise was a GREAT narrative point to finally pick up that DRK crystal and actually use it, hehe~ ;3

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lord_Umbra

In Stormblood after taking the bridge we hunt down cowering Imperials who had fled barely able to stand defend themselves & murder them only for few quest later to save an Imperial after shoot their own during battle & again later we kill more after Castrum before Ala Mhigo that hiding in shadows, the game constantly sends mixed messages.

Also you get option in Heavensward to say you'll rip out Zepheryn heart & give Thordan & boys a cold death stare as he questions what we are.

---

Hunting down the enemy is like rule 102 of war. Besides every single one of them decided to fight rather than give up once caught. Pretty sure we were taking out patrols for those last two examples you're talking about. Standard war things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Hunting down the enemy is like rule 102 of war. Besides every single one of them decided to fight rather than give up once caught. Pretty sure we were taking out patrols for those last two examples you're talking about. Standard war things.

---

Why specifically rule 102? You got a handbook somewhere I don't know about? ;3

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

Why specifically rule 102? You got a handbook somewhere I don't know about? ;3

---

Rule 102: The enemy remains the enemy until the Articles of Surrender are signed and an Armistice declared. "We beat them in the battle" is no excuse to continue to let them live to battle another day.

And yes, our mission in Garlemald was a Rescue Mission, not a series of battles to force the already decimated Garleans to surrender. The Xth essentially did that (surrender) before we attacked the Tower of Babil.

Amen.

Now apply that rule to the beast tribes.

Something to keep in mind regarding the tempered soldier in In From the Cold is that at that point, tempering is curable. That's significantly different from the wartime situations we were in in Heavensward and Stormblood, where everyone was of their own mind--which ironically is much harder to cure than tempering is now, because technically there's nothing wrong.

I did this on the MSQ up through 5.55

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards...eborn/79580448

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Necrotica

Amen.

Now apply that rule to the beast tribes.

---

An Armistice has been declared by both sides. Eorzea and the Beast Tribes are in negotiations about the Articles of Surrender (and we're not exactly on the 'winning' side of negotiations).

Eh, in the heat of combat the finesse required to not kill is oft hard to muster properly. It's war, and in war bad shit happens. You ask me, you ought to ask yourself if these people deserve to be saved. Brainwashed or not, Garlean soldiers have nevertheless done some pretty heinous shit. They're no Emperor Solus, but they don't have to be. At best they're all mini-Fordolas. So, where's their bomb collars if I might ask? Are we to let these crime committers simply walk free? What happens to the Ala Mhigan fishwife who spots her husband's murderer happily traipsing the Quarter?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

Eh, in the heat of combat the finesse required to not kill is oft hard to muster properly. It's war, and in war bad shit happens. You ask me, you ought to ask yourself if these people deserve to be saved. Brainwashed or not, Garlean soldiers have nevertheless done some pretty heinous shit. They're no Emperor Solus, but they don't have to be. At best they're all mini-Fordolas. So, where's their bomb collars if I might ask? Are we to let these crime committers simply walk free? What happens to the Ala Mhigan fishwife who spots her husband's murderer happily traipsing the Quarter?

---

Bad example; they're all dead. Fordola's the only Ala Mhigan enlist left. The EW healer role quest (best role quest, by the way) explicitly discusses this, its main focus is on the families of the people who enlisted and how they're being marginalized for the crime of having a family member who bet on the wrong horse and sided with the Empire to protect their family. And as for Fordola... yeah, people aren't exactly super comfortable with her still being around, although they're slowly coming to terms with the fact and understanding that she's trying to do right by them now. She's a complicated woman.

Now if you really wanted to make this point, the correct place to aim your sights is Doma, because the ranged physical role quest (the... eh, middling-est role quest, depending on how much you like Hien) explicitly discusses that yeah, Doma actually does still have citizens that were with the Empire. Their citizens are rather more conflicted, since most of the focus there is actually on returning Doman POWs, there's a lot of themes of both survivors' guilt and the people's rage at 'why did you live when my loved one died'. There's also at least one Doman fighting with the IVth Legion, Yamatsumi the Onmyoji, although it doesn't exactly end well for him.

Something to always keep in mind, though, is that the chain of command in war means you cannot simply call everyone who fought in a war guilty of all crimes; they might've been the one with the gun, but they weren't the one that gave the order, and they didn't exactly have the option not to shoot. Resolving all of that is a place for a war tribunal, which we won't get because that would be a very boring questline, but suffice to say... well, no, you can't consider EVERY Garlean soldier to be guilty and malicious actors. Especially given a nation that's just finished a goddamn war is a little fragile; sending everyone in Doma who helped the Imperials to the gallows is mostly just gonna lead to civil unrest.

Fordola was not only in command but also did some bad things towards innocent people. Her group beat up those that could not pay, which we saw with our own eyes. She then did something really heinous by bascially shooting at her own soldiers/friends. Who knows what else she did in all those years.

Unlike her, many Garlean soldiers just did what they were told to do. We also have to remember that a lot of them were conscripts who might not even want to fight. We have heard what will happen to the families of such soldiers if they refused to take up arms.

So there is quite a difference between someone like Fordola who also took it out on civilian and the common soldier who might have just fought against other soldiers.

In the end Fordola only got the collar (thus a chance at life) because she was useful with her echo otherwise she would have been killed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleo

Fordola was not only in command but also did some bad things towards innocent people. Her group beat up those that could not pay, which we saw with our own eyes. She then did something really heinous by bascially shooting at her own soldiers/friends. Who knows what else she did in all those years.

Unlike her, many Garlean soldiers just did what they were told to do. We also have to remember that a lot of them were conscripts who might not even want to fight. We have heard what will happen to the families of such soldiers if they refused to take up arms.

So there is quite a difference between someone like Fordola who also took it out on civilian and the common soldier who might have just fought against other soldiers.

In the end Fordola only got the collar (thus a chance at life) because she was useful with her echo otherwise she would have been killed.

---

While largely true, Fordola also wasn't the top of any chain of command; she was making decisions of her own volition, but it's also entirely plausible to say that she didn't have the freedom to make better ones. Remember that she's serving under Zenos at that point, and Zenos kills his own soldiers for exhibiting whatever he calls 'cowardice'. She's DEFINITELY the hardest problem to solve in that theoretical war tribunal for that reason: she's definitely someone with agency in her decisions, but she's also simultaneously someone who was left with very few options for what to do with that agency.

And yeah, it's REALLY lucky for her that she happened to have an indispensable ability at the exact moment they needed it, which then created a situation that's considerably kinder to her odds. They needed to give her the chance to show that she was capable of doing better, not for her sake, but because she's someone that can stop existential threats. Which realistically isn't a situation that's much better than she was in under the Empire--it's still 'do what benefits us under penalty of death', it's just that this time the agency she's permitted is what's used to prove she's better than what she was thought to be, rather than under Zenos where only the most merciless and cruel options weren't punished.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

Eh, in the heat of combat the finesse required to not kill is oft hard to muster properly. It's war, and in war bad shit happens. You ask me, you ought to ask yourself if these people deserve to be saved. Brainwashed or not, Garlean soldiers have nevertheless done some pretty heinous shit. They're no Emperor Solus, but they don't have to be. At best they're all mini-Fordolas. So, where's their bomb collars if I might ask? Are we to let these crime committers simply walk free? What happens to the Ala Mhigan fishwife who spots her husband's murderer happily traipsing the Quarter?

---

The Garlean soldiers that surrendered aren't being allowed into the city and will most likely be shipped back up north just as soon as things stabilize.

Frankly, I think that's bullsheiss and cannot get behind that rationale. Legally, as a soldier you have an obligation to follow orders.

Morally, as a person you have an obligation to disregard tyrannical orders. If you do not, you are the one who is lacking in morals not your superiors. Some things are worth dying, or being hated by your own family and friends for.

I'm sure the "heretics" of the Dragonsong would agree.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

Frankly, I think that's bullsheiss and cannot get behind that rationale. Legally, as a soldier you have an obligation to follow orders.

Morally, as a person you have an obligation to disregard tyrannical orders. If you do not, you are the one who is lacking in morals not your superiors. Some things are worth dying, or being hated by your own family and friends for.

I'm sure the "heretics" of the Dragonsong would agree.

---

You're ignoring the fact the garlean empire often aim at their families and friends first before killing the conscripted last. Not everyone has the belief that "Ok they are evil so I rather have my entire family, friends, and homeland get brutally killed first then myself instead of following them as a conscripted soldier" mind set you may have.

It was do what they so or everyone you love dies first then yourself last under the decree that they are rebels or be conscripted so their love onces remain unharmed even if they should die as conscripted soldiers following orders.

Many of them just wanted their loved ones to live under hope they may be spared having to follow the Garlean Empire's orders as conscripted soldiers or killed by them either through another country winning or the Garlean Empire winning even if they ended up being hated by both sides.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

Frankly, I think that's bullsheiss and cannot get behind that rationale. Legally, as a soldier you have an obligation to follow orders.

Morally, as a person you have an obligation to disregard tyrannical orders. If you do not, you are the one who is lacking in morals not your superiors. Some things are worth dying, or being hated by your own family and friends for.

I'm sure the "heretics" of the Dragonsong would agree.

---

What about the Garlean conscripts who were drafted from one province to fight in another, with the threat of their families back home being executed if they do not follow orders?

Do they have a moral obligation to disobey tyrannical orders, and in turn have thier families back home be killed, or they obliged to obey in order to protect thier families? There is no easy, "correct" answer. - Except that the Garlean War machine and its leaders are morally culpable for the suffering that it caused, not the average rank and file solider. (Most of the time, anyway. An individual solider COULD in fact commit horrific war crimes if they go above and beyond what they were ordered to do in terms of cruelty.)

As much as I would love a Garlean War Crimes Tribunal questline, I don't think many people would enjoy it as much as me, and I'm not sure how it could move the overall plot along.

The soldiers have a moral obligation to their families. Not random strangers in other countries.

The conscript that says 'fuck my family back home, I'm just gonna run away and take care of myself' would be looked upon as evil and rightly so.

I think Senti's one of the people who really struggles with understanding the dire situations some of the people we come across are in, because we personally are not in that situation.

I'm not talking 'they don't understand war IRL' or anything like that, I mean that it's hard for us to grasp just how hopeless the situation is for people in Ala Mhigo, Doma, or the First, or any number of other situations, because we're essentially turning up as their improbable last hope. We can look at Ala Mhigo and say 'yeah, this is fixable' in large part because we don't know the decades of utter hopeless domination they've lived through. We look at Eulmore and see 'this is absolutely horrific why would people agree to this' because we come from a world where there actually are better options rather than this being the only chance you've got to live in comfort.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KariTheFox

As much as I would love a Garlean War Crimes Tribunal questline, I don't think many people would enjoy it as much as me, and I'm not sure how it could move the overall plot along.

---

Interesting enough, if players remember, that back in Stormblood we have a side quest in Ala Ghiri that covered this topic involving a garlean conscripted named Baut.

He does openly admits he done horrible things under orders from his superiors when he was still a low ranking conscript soldier but once he manage to get a higher position and became the leader of the Garleans stationed in Ala Ghiri, he made active changes to policies towards treatment of people under the Garlean Controlled town of Ala Ghiri.

It resulted in both conscripts and even Garleans respecting him for improving the conditions of the town he is charged with and he made certain any mistreatment of the people in the town was punished.

However, as he admitted he still done horrible things under the command of his superiors when he was lower rank and he is only a conscript because his family and loved ones were at risk due to the Garleans taking over his home thus basically holding them hostage.

Out of fear that he may be executed, the towns people did actively hide him despite how he was willing to give himself up because they had already accepted him as one of their own due to how much he did to make the town better once he gained a high position and his position before the town was liberated was not a simple one since his family and loved ones were at risks if he done anything against the Garlean Empire or gave them a reason.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Interesting enough, if players remember, that back in Stormblood we have a side quest in Ala Ghiri that covered this topic involving a garlean conscripted named Baut.

He does openly admits he done horrible things under orders from his superiors when he was still a low ranking conscript soldier but once he manage to get a higher position and became the leader of the Garleans stationed in Ala Ghiri, he made active changes to policies towards treatment of people under the Garlean Controlled town of Ala Ghiri.

It resulted in both conscripts and even Garleans respecting him for improving the conditions of the town he is charged with and he made certain any mistreatment of the people in the town was punished.

However, as he admitted he still done horrible things under the command of his superiors when he was lower rank and he is only a conscript because his family and loved ones were at risk due to the Garleans taking over his home thus basically holding them hostage.

Out of fear that he may be executed, the towns people did actively hide him despite how he was willing to give himself up because they had already accepted him as one of their own due to how much he did to make the town better once he gained a high position and his position before the town was liberated was not a simple one since his family and loved ones were at risks if he done anything against the Garlean Empire or gave them a reason.

---

He wasn't a conscript he joined to do his twenty years of service for citizenship but his family died in a plague just when he hit that milestone. Other than him saying he was a meatshield like pretty much all conscripts are he never really talks about doing anything horrible. The citizens of the town hide him because they think the Alliance will just lock him up or kill him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

He wasn't a conscript he joined to do his twenty years of service for citizenship but his family died in a plague just when he hit that milestone. Other than him saying he was a meatshield like pretty much all conscripts are he never really talks about doing anything horrible. The citizens of the town hide him because they think the Alliance will just lock him up or kill him.

---

Depends on how you will view his method of joining. Certain Garlean Soldiers that viewed their actions to join the Garlean Army as conscription because while they were offered citizenship after X or Y years of service, there was in reality no actual choice except to join unless they wanted to continue living under less rights for not being deemed Garlean Citizens or face worse consequences. However, that also depends on who was recruiting at that time and the region since we know not all garlean leadership were evil but had to manage around those that are evil.


I also already said the town intentionally hid him because they fear that the Alliance will execute him. However, if you misinterpreted that part of my post as me saying the Garleans will execute him instead then I am sorry it was not clear that I was talking about the Alliance.