Would you like an in-game parser?

Maybe they should stop designing game mechanics around arbitrary DPS requirements? Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Maybe they should stop designing game mechanics around arbitrary DPS requirements? Just a thought.

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why? Then dps doesn't need a rotation and dps is no longer a dps? Faceroll stuff? No thanks.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

why? Then dps doesn't need a rotation and dps is no longer a dps? Faceroll stuff? No thanks.

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So no hard DPS requirement is faceroll stuff ?
Where were you during Turn 5 and Turn 9 ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

So no hard DPS requirement is faceroll stuff ?
Where were you during Turn 5 and Turn 9 ?

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Keep in mind I was one of the first to beat those on my server. Still dps check. Many failed on snakes and even adds in t9. Yes also seen enrage in those because people couldnt do it

Dunno how to edit on phone, but if there is No dps check. Do you want people to run like headles chicken and do mechanics and barely do dps? The mechanic and dps check are there for a reason.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

Dunno how to edit on phone, but if there is No dps check. Do you want people to run like headles chicken and do mechanics and barely do dps? The mechanic and dps check are there for a reason.

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This forum is still as extreme as ever...
You either have "really hard DPS requirement" or "DPS running like headless chickens"...you know about this thing called "middle ground" ?

By the way, yes, people did fail on snakes or adds in T9...after many many tries wiping to conflag, divebomb, heavensfall.., dead members on mechanics that you had to raise in a weakened state, etc...no just because they didn't do the perfect rotation for their job.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

This .

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When you raid you should try your hardest. Ofc there is dps that you can do and still beat, thats not my point. When you want to add No dps requirement or low as dungeons and 24man raid its silly. There are reason why they are called savage or why top tier players do them. And No this was without death too. Snakes died too slow and it simply screw tank over or enough to wipe party because they still alive. There is a huge difference in 400 dps there and 250. If it was 350 that would easily be acceptable too. But when you clearly have no clue thats what people talk about. Or simply those who play however they want aka ice mage or No posititional. I wrote my last post a bit wrong, so sorry for that. If you Followed my old post you can clearly see its fine being midicore dps which is 50-100behind too one. But 300-500, thats alot of dmg right there.

Also midas got restricted alot down on dps Check compare to first Alex. Yet people cant beat Faust. Explain.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Maybe they should stop designing game mechanics around arbitrary DPS requirements? Just a thought.

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Tanks have to know their class very good or they die.

Healers have to know their class very good or all die.

Why should damage dealers be the one role, that don't have to know their class?

The onliest way to check out if a damage dealer has understood the class are: DPS checks. And these have to be on a similar skill level as tank and healer skill checks.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

Tanks have to know their class very good or they die.

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To the point where, to clear content, every tank had to withdraw their tank stance as much as possible, avoid any tank stats back when it didn't increase their DPS. So, basically, anything but tanking.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

Healers have to know their class very good or all die.

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So, from now on, you're a bad healer if you don't pop Cleric Stance the second no one needs healing, even if you didn't let anyone die or keep a bad status effect during the whole fight. So, again, a thing that as nothing to do with healing

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

Why should damage dealers be the one role, that don't have to know their class?

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There is a difference between "not knowing your class" and being 10% below perfection, which in these days, means you're absolute garbage. Even if you're avoiding every mechanics so that you'll go easy on your healers. Black Mages are even encouraged to stay in AoE if avoiding means lowering your DPS by a tiny bit. So, if you do anything that is not DPSing, there you're bad.

The worst part, of course, is that this mentality has poisoined every party for every content, even though thoses 10% are actually meaningless for most content. And now that people think like that, there is no going back.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

And these have to be on a similar skill level as tank and healer skill checks.

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And, by the way, tanking checks are ridiculously low compared to DPS check.

Reynhart has a point. If you add an in game parser, some people will consider gargabe any DPS wich perfon 10% less than the "optimal" You know is true, you cannot say no. WoW has trhis problem. People is more focus on be top DPS than play for fun, because they know imediately will be blamed if their DPS drops a bit.

Some people in this game seems want turn this game into that, sacrifice fun to do the "optimal" shit. Adding the parser for all in all content, will cause people start demand DPS to everyone, even that guy who plays 1 hour per day to run few dungeons and don't care about high level stuffand only want a little fun for a while.

So, the best solution is add parser personal only.

Or

Add a group parser for preformed parties only and only on high level content (Extreme Primals, Savage, Coil, etc) like Neophyte suggest few post ago, because all people wil lagree ein do it (and if not, the ycan jsut leave party). You don't need a parser for casual content to annoy players that only want play for fun.

This is simple. A meter on random DF parties will cause problems only, and won't help in anything.

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

If you add an in game parser, some people will consider gargabe any DPS wich perfon 10% less than the "optimal"

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Why do you use "will" ? It's already there, thanks to personal parsers.
And it doesn't only applies to DPS. PLD was rejected because its DPS was too low, even with a perfect rotation...which is very very basic for PLD anyway...

What could save this game is to remove any damage display, so parsing could be impossible. The potency on skills would be enough to theoryze all you want, and Stone, Sky and Sea would give you a broad estimate on your improvement without actual numbers.

In fact, I'm pretty sure this insane focus on damage parse came way before hard DPS checks...when it was easier to put the blame on low DPS instead of screwing mechanics for reaching an enrage.

I will just ignore some of the last replies people did, because they still ignore a large problem of the community so I will post a very big post and have my own summer of what this thread has brought to us all!

So I will go over the people who doesn' want a parser in game and these are the reasons:
People being elitist jerks
People will only care about numbers
People will be left out from content
People can't play how they want so the pressure of a parser will make them stress out more, it's like a test to them.
It's not all about dps
Some feel they that dps has all the ''work'' to do
Will split community

Now I will post the things people who WANTS parsers:
No limitation to improve yourself as a player
Get better as a player
Adjust and see where and what could been done different in terms of cooldowns etc in fight
Playing DPS as main class and want to optimize it
Keep in mind I might have forgotten something so please let me know

Now, this part will be my respons to people who are againt's parser

Yes there will be elitist jerks of jerks who will call out bad dps in a bad way, saying things like you are shit, go quit the game, you shouldn't even play dps etc etc. The list is long and I know and I've seen it, however jerks will remain jerks, while people, like A LOT of people who also use parsers haven't called them out, so saying people will get worse of they get obtain a parser, will make it a lot worse. There will probably and most likely be more people who will jump on the bandewagon for calling out bad players in a shitty way, but keep in mind if people weren't so frustrated with themselves and actually improved themselves they would mostlikely not be called out even if it was a nice way or a shit way.

Numbers aren't excactly numbers. Many times peoples arguement againt's parsers is people will only be seen as numbers. There is a huge different ''forgetting'' or ''missclick'' skills and drop down 500 dps than doing 50-100 less than you could have. Keep in mind some DPS is RNG involved so having the excact same numbers wont happen all the time. If a person is 500 even more behind what they should, this isn't all about numbers, this is also about the player; Doesn't know a propper rotation, not willing to take advice, plays on their own way and simply gives a shit about people around them and only think about themselves. THIS IS A HUGE PROBLEM! FOR MANY PLAYERS!!

People being left out from content. There are various of excuses why this happens, one of them being players not playing optimized, keep in mind when I say optimized it means 85% or more into the job you play. You don't HAVE to play at 100%. This is what a lot of anti parser people sees wrong. Many people who parsers gives a rat's ass about dps in dungeons or even in 24 man. Even if there are people who do, there are NOT many of them. What most people want to let anti parsers know, the actuall talk about propper content like savage or extreme primals when you excactly can't slack around, so please stop say people would put you down in every single content.
If you aren't doing your role, you simply should 1: stay away or 2: get gud!
Many here arguments with dungeons or 24man raids, but never mention savage or extreme primals when they argue againt's people who want's parsers. There is a big difference in dungeons and primal/savage runs. Keep in mind it's also SE's fault a bit too, giving players no reason's to get better unless they really wanna do savage or extreme primals. The gap is simply too big too!

Now if you are left out there are many reasons, you simply don't pull enough weight for the actuall content and I talk about extreme primals or savage. Screw dungeons or 24 man raids, those doesn't matter at all. But honestly if you gonna cast blizzard or fire 3 every 10 seconds, you are doing it on purpose and wasting peoples time, simply because you are lazy, that's also what many people dislikes.
If you get nagged down, positive or negative way, take the criticism and get better. If you simply refuse because 1 guy was an asshole, that's your fault for not improving and also a bad excuse for doing so.
It's not all about DPS, no it's not, mechanics are involved too as well adjusting yourself as a dps to dance with the mechanics while dealing damage. Now, your JOB is to deal damage
Much as tank has to tank, or healers have to heal. Before anyone gonna bring up some silly arguements people say all the time healers aren't good if they don't dps, there are MANY and I talk about MANY who can't even pass faust because the healers can't heal through aoe or when the tank get's hit hard. So if you can, you know you are somewhat good enough to do it, if you can't you have to get better.
Tanks has to mitigate the busters and also controll the location of the boss/adds, so please don't tell me DPS shouldn't do anything. After all mechanics are for all classes. Healers to heal mechanics, tanks mitigate them and DPS has to do them and adjust and keep their dps high. Is this equal? I think so. Keep in mind when you play as a team you want everyone to optimize and not half ass it even if there are fights some classes can slack. If you are in my team I expect you to play 85% good and not slack, but being 100% is even better!. If you slack that one is your fault and if you won't get better that's also your own fault.

Now many feel the pressure of being a dps in certain fight's and you have the reason to do so, because it's your job to bring the boss down and if you can't well, you know what can be fixed.

Honestly I will probably get suspended or banned for saying this and I don't care if I do, because honestly has to be said:
But if you are complaining that some one told you that your dps is low, you have to fix it and not ignore it. Your job as a DPS is to dps, so if you think you can slack off, then you shouldn't expect healers to heal all the time when it's needed or tanks ignoring busters and won't use any cooldowns for it. As I mentioned countless of times, if you are being told in a dungeon or 24 man raid I'm sorry if people are like that and I find it annoying too. But if you slowing the team down on purpose because it's fun to cast freeze every 20 seconds or cast blizard through the dungeon or simply not doing positionals that's not worth ranting about their dps, that's more like the player having an awful attiutude and doesn't respect the group.

No anti parser person have even mentioned how those people can improve when they aren't willing to learn or look up guides. Most want to just ignore it and socialy accept it so peopel don't get hurt.
That's one of reasons why many are left out from extreme primals and savage runs. People who talks about wanting a parser in games and I talk about 99% of the people in here, want's one because many who want's to do primals or savage simply doesn't do their job enough. The 1% cares about dungens and 24 man raids, so I don't really see why people would mention dungeons 24-7s.

tl;dr:
If you as a DPS can't do your job propely, don't expect healers to heal all the time and tanks to avoid where to stand with boss or not even using CDs when tank buster comes
The people who want's parsers want it mainly for primals and savage raids. Since many can't pull the weight off being a dps, either ignore the problem being bad, doesn't take criticism, refuses to take advice, won't look up guides, play how they want (ice mage etc). Those reasons are why many can be extremely frustrated and then suddenly blow off and call people shit. If you think parsers will bring more problems to the game, that's because many still refuses to get better when one (maybe) officially will be in the game. Many of those exist and who knows maybe there will be more of those players if a parser eventually happens.

Please anti parser people, since you guys want to avoid having more jerks in game if parsers come out, and obviously your statement is to drop it completely so they wont be more of them.
How can we have people who refuses to take advice, get better or simply stop ''play the game how they want'' attitude? Or we gonna keep them out? Last time I checked this is an MMO and I'm sure many who are into parsing want to include more people as long they are more than willing to do so, but as many people know there is a huge group who won't.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

What could save this game is to remove any damage display,.

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That would kill the game in less than a month. What would really save this game is not listening to the vocal minority and give the vast majority of players what they want as far as add-ons which includes parsers.

Which they are going to do, as Yoshi has said several times.

The word "Elitist" is very over used

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Originally Posted by Asmodai

That would kill the game in less than a month.

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Why ? Because you say so ?

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Originally Posted by Asmodai

the vast majority of players what they want as far as add-ons which includes parsers.

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Actually, I really doubt that is the majority.

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Originally Posted by Asmodai

Which they are going to do, as Yoshi has said several times.

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You mean how he mentionend several times that he doesn't want to give people parsers because some of them will use this for harassment ?

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

No anti parser person have even mentioned how those people can improve when they aren't willing to learn or look up guides.

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Since when "not having a parser" means not "learning" or refusing "to look at a guide".
I'd really like you to explain that since I've personnally never used a parser, yet I checked a lot a guides or videos on how to do better as a Dragoon, and I know that it helped me improve a lot...without a single parser
And I've even used Stone, Sky and Sea to check on my overall improvement...something I actually mentionned,too

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You mean how he mentionend several times that he doesn't want to give people parsers because some of them will use this for harassment ?


Since when "not having a parser" means not "learning" or refuse "to look at a guide".
I'd really like you to explain that since I've personnally never used a parser, yet I checked a lot a guides or videos on how to do better as a Dragoon, and I know that it helped me improve a lot...without a single parser
And I've even used Stone, Sky and Sea to check on my overall improvement...something I actually mentionned,too

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Having almost no DPS requirment will deff kill the game, this is nothing he only states just to be funny, it's true. Why are dps there? To deal damage and do rotations and for your reply to me. Many refuses to read guides and still if they do they aren't good enough to do it, then what? Are you sure you do enough as you should tho? I did midas 4 savage as ilvl 220 drg with 220 spear but with some food and pot and small amount of good rng, I managed to do it. That doesn't tell me how I would perform in the actual fight with mechanics, where many and including myself could fail on.
I'm not saying YOU, haven't checked a guide, many doesn't and that's still a problem and how do we fix that?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Why ? Because you say so ?

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Because not seeing yourself progress means you may as well be playing a puzzle game or mario paint. There is a reason why no rpg's or at least any rpgs that are even slightly popular do this. Or why damage is listed for every weapon in the vast majority of games. People like seeing it.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Actually, I really doubt that is the majority.

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The poll on the front of this page says otherwise. 2/3 of the people who cared to vote voted against your thought process. I'm sure youre going to say "250 votes out of 600k players proves nothing" and I would respond that the random selection of individuals would equate to a valid opinion poll.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You mean how he mentionend several times that he doesn't want to give people parsers because some of them will use this for harassment ?

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You can pretend he said that all you want, but it isnt true. What he said is he didnt want to make an official parser but he did say add-ons are going to be put in. As for add-ons with DPS meters he said the below.

YoshiP: We’re not going to say we’re forbidding players to use that kind of tool if they make it, but I think that’s really up to the community and players for that decision.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

Having almost no DPS requirment will deff kill the game, this is nothing he only states just to be funny, it's true.

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Strange because I actually think having such hard DPS requirement like Alex Savage defnitiely killed more of the playerbase than the whole Coil, where DPS requirement where far far less severe.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

Many refuses to read guides and still if they do they aren't good enough to do it, then what?

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I didn't defend people who refused to improve. It's just that "a parser is mandatory to improve" mentality is just stupid.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

Are you sure you do enough as you should tho?

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Interesting question. No, I'm not sure of it, but it's actually another problem. Let's say that a DPS check requires 4000 overall DPS. Let's say one DPS does 1000 and manage to do all mechanics. Let's say another DPS does 1500 but screw severals times on that phase. According to you, which one will be kicked ? The one who do enough and not screwing mechanics or the one wo do more than enough but fail the rest.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

I'm not saying YOU, haven't checked a guide, many doesn't and that's still a problem and how do we fix that?

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You still considered refusing to learn as the same thing as not wanting a parser, which has nothing do with it

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Originally Posted by Asmodai

Because not seeing yourself progress means you may as well be playing a puzzle game or mario paint.

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Except there is a way to see the progress you make...

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Originally Posted by Asmodai

Or why damage is listed for every weapon in the vast majority of games. People like seeing it.

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Several games also don't display actual damage numbers on screen, even though your weapon and skills gives a base number.

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Originally Posted by Asmodai

I'm sure youre going to say "250 votes out of 600k players proves nothing" and I would respond that the random selection of individuals would equate to a valid opinion poll.

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Which it does not. Random selection means nothing in statistics. 250 votes out of 600k players really means nothing.

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Originally Posted by Asmodai

YoshiP: We’re not going to say we’re forbidding players to use that kind of tool if they make it, but I think that’s really up to the community and players for that decision.

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Right, and again, it's way too early to state that the playerbase wants a parser.

If you really want to gove players what they want, you'd allow any player to hide their damage on a personal basis. This way, each player would be able to decide if they want to be parsed or not.

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Originally Posted by Asmodai

The poll on the front of this page says otherwise.

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That's a hilariously slippery slope if you want to try and defend forum likes to a objective view of the player base. Even as a guy who has threads with several hundred likes I'm well aware that the forums opinion doesn't reflect the community as a whole.

The forums group is a pretty committed group of players and the type who know what a parser even is and how it can be used for good purposes. The majority of players in the game wouldn't even know what a parser is even if it slapped them in the face. It's these players and the small subsect of core players who would abuse this and use it to harass players rather than use it for personal gains. You overestimate the ability of players to use this tool for good instead of ill.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Interesting question. No, I'm not sure of it, but it's actually another problem. Let's say that a DPS check requires 4000 overall DPS. Let's say one DPS does 1000 and manage to do all mechanics. Let's say another DPS does 1500 but screw severals times on that phase. According to you, which one will be kicked ?

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Well, a proper raid group would keep both of them and work on the phase. Hypothetically though if it was a pug and someone had to be kicked then the one not doing the mechanics would be kicked. That's a pretty easy call. Anyone who would kick the person doing the mechanics and maintaining dps that is sufficient to complete the dungeon would be a moron. However, usually if someone is not doing mechanics their DPS will go down dramatically due to them being dead.

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Originally Posted by Asmodai

That's a pretty easy call.

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Which isn't made. Every time I see a team fail, it's "Oh, we don't have any DPS", because it's easier to keep that on check thanks to a parser.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

That's a hilariously slippery slope if you want to try and defend forum likes to a objective view of the player base. Even as a guy who has threads with several hundred likes I'm well aware that the forums opinion doesn't reflect the community as a whole.

The forums group is a pretty committed group of players and the type who know what a parser even is and how it can be used for good purposes. The majority of players in the game wouldn't even know what a parser is even if it slapped them in the face. It's these players and the small subsect of core players who would abuse this and use it to harass players rather than use it for personal gains. You overestimate the ability of players to use this tool for good instead of ill.

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Well, that's what we have to work with. Maybe we should be pushing SE for an official poll.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Interesting question. No, I'm not sure of it, but it's actually another problem. Let's say that a DPS check requires 4000 overall DPS. Let's say one DPS does 1000 and manage to do all mechanics. Let's say another DPS does 1500 but screw severals times on that phase. According to you, which one will be kicked ? The one who do enough and not screwing mechanics or the one wo do more than enough but fail the rest.

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Even if 1k dps is done and group manage to kill it, doesn't mean he did enough of his own weight. Keep in mind only 2 days after we beat seph we manages to do it with 7 people, that's 1 guy doing nothing in the entire fight. Things like this can happen, and I've seen it happen plenty of time in groups I don't know. That's why I said 85%. Good example, you join a ravana group back in the days when ilvl was lower, ever dps be pulling 1k plus while one does 550? Is that acceptable? Just because you can kill it, doesn't mean the guy pulled his own job correctly. if he was 800-850 that be better but when you are 450-500 behind everone else, you KNOW very well that's a carry and that's the biggues issue many here speaks of, including myself. Many just socialy accept 1 guy being bad, which is so freaking unfair to a whole group.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Which isn't made. Every time I see a team fail, it's "Oh, we don't have any DPS", because it's easier to keep that on check thanks to a parser.

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LIke the other guy said, the guy who dies will anyways do lower dps, no matter what. I only call out people who dies more than he should, if some one is doing less and survives the whole fight but somehow get enrage he has to do more damage. Easy call.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Which isn't made. Every time I see a team fail, it's "Oh, we don't have any DPS", because it's easier to keep that on check thanks to a parser.

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That's a pug that isnt reaching the dps check. If you need 4k and you only have 3.5k then you dont have the dps to do it. In a raid group 9/10 times people first try to help the person having an issue before replacing them. It's easier to help someone get better than it is to find someone who already knows how to play.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Interesting question. No, I'm not sure of it, but it's actually another problem. Let's say that a DPS check requires 4000 overall DPS. Let's say one DPS does 1000 and manage to do all mechanics. Let's say another DPS does 1500 but screw severals times on that phase. According to you, which one will be kicked ? The one who do enough and not screwing mechanics or the one wo do more than enough but fail the rest.

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In the scenario you posed, neither of the two candidates would be immediately up for "kicking" and this train of thought feels more of a loaded question than naught. With that being said, the 1K DPS would be at no risk because he's meeting the requirements necessary to complete the fight and consistently doing the mechanics. However, the higher DPS is at risk because if s/he proves that they are incapable of consistently completing the desired mechanics and would be holding the group back overall through progression if they show they cannot learn how to do the fight properly.

The performance of a DPS (or any role for that matter) is the sum of their ability to perform their role and deal with the fight mechanics. While that ability to perform one's role is transparent in the case of tanks and healers, in the case of DPS that transparency doesn't exist due to a lack of parser DPS measuring tool (really should be called this more than naught since there are some pretty key differences between the two).

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

The performance of a DPS (or any role for that matter) is the sum of their ability to perform their role and deal with the fight mechanics. While that ability to perform one's role is transparent in the case of tanks and healers, in the case of DPS that transparency doesn't exist due to a lack of parser.

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When they tried to make is less transparent and put the onus more on the DPS it failed miserably due to the large majority of dps who dont know how to optimize anything due to the lack of a parser. It's also funny to me the people who emphasize mechanics when it comes to the lack of DPS, if they knew anything they would know in order to get higher DPS in this game you have to perform the mechanics perfectly.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

Even if 1k dps is done and group manage to kill it, doesn't mean he did enough of his own weight.

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No, he did enough. But, yes, maybe he didn't do his best. The problem is that enough is enough. And since goals are actually based on best players, everyone wants the absolute best, even when it's way over enough. Just look at the old "PLD sucks" topic...PLD did enough to beat savage, yet people pushed it out because WAR or DRK did better.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

Good example, you join a ravana group back in the days when ilvl was lower, ever dps be pulling 1k plus while one does 550? Is that acceptable?

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No, it's not. But this community is way past such a trivial case. Even back in 2.0, people requested relics to invite you to Titan Hard mode. When the Novus was created, having anything besides full Det/Crit was considered garbage. And I remembered people posting that full Det/Crit and Det/Crit/Accu (to avoid rank IV materias) ended in less than 5% gap in DPS.

The problem is that the more you give players means to judge others, the harsher they will become.

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Originally Posted by Asmodai

if they knew anything they would know in order to get higher DPS in this game you have to perform the mechanics perfectly.

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Did you miss the part where BLM are encouraged to stay in AoE to not lose any second out of Ley Lines ?

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

The performance of a DPS (or any role for that matter) is the sum of their ability to perform their role and deal with the fight mechanics. While that ability to perform one's role is transparent in the case of tanks and healers, in the case of DPS that transparency doesn't exist due to a lack of parser DPS measuring tool (really should be called this more than naught since there are some pretty key differences between the two).

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You forgot to mention how tanks are healers would also need a parser to do the most DPS they can...and you also forgot that we have Stone, Sky, and Sea, which gives a precise objective in the DPS requirement without showing any actual number. Who could have thought ?

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Originally Posted by Asmodai

When they tried to make is less transparent and put the onus more on the DPS it failed miserably due to the large majority of dps who dont know how to optimize anything due to the lack of a parser. It's also funny to me the people who emphasize mechanics when it comes to the lack of DPS, if they knew anything they would know in order to get higher DPS in this game you have to perform the mechanics perfectly.

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Problem I also noticed, compare to old alex and new, the old one didn't have as much mechanics vs the new ones. And many people struggle to follow mechanics while maintain their dps. How can they improve and know they doing well or not? Doing sky sea stone? Hell no. If the fight had no mechanics you be safe, but since it does.. good luck finding out. :P

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, he did enough. But, yes, maybe he didn't do his best. The problem is that, for most content, enough is enough. And since goals are actually based on best players, everyone wants the absolute best, even when it's way over enough.
EDITING

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And you just prove its social accepted to have 1 guy 500 dps behind the other. Of course, you are right, when you down it as a group and it's fine it still shouldn't be accepted hes way lower than he should be. If it was 100-150 ish behind then he could def improve since theres mostlikely something he/she missed out doing or wrong times of cooldowns, b4b, IR etc. However why would people and I KNOW for certain if many if they had access to parsers they would look at this guy and say, hey hes far behind on his dps. I know this is what anti parser people talk about, but keep in mind, why should 3 dps do 100% of their job while one does only 50%. This is group not some one gets carried. If you want to be carried buy a run from some one, because you are leeching of people and you honestly think it's fine to leech? I don't.

Another example let's say we talk about the same people but we are in raid 1 out of 4, so on raid 2 their dps requirement is higher, you know very well that person has to pull his weight even higher to manage to beat the content. And that's where the problems also comes in,just because you can do 1 requirement of the dps check in the lower tier floor, doesn't mean you can handle the next, let's say being higher in mechanics and dps wise.

But yes I agree as long it can be done why not, but keep in mind the higher tier fights, lets say next floor in raids the dps has to be higher obviously. If it can be done with lower dps why not? It works as you say, however when you raid you have to expect higher ceiling in fight. And if dps doesn't improve, well yeah K.O :p

If devs know that the parsers would lead to harrassment increase, and we all know harrassment hurts player retention, why would they add such.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

And you just prove its social accepted to have 1 guy 500 dps behind the other.

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Or you could have waited till I finished editing my post to answer this exact question.

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Originally Posted by Derio

If devs know that the parsers would lead to harrassment increase, and we all know harrassment hurts player retention, why would they add such.

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If devs know that the parsers would lead to an increased understanding of your job, and we all know that players who learn to play better enjoy the class more, which helps keep player retention, why wouldn't they add such?

I can make an opinionated, baseless comment as well.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Or you could have waited till I finished editing my post to answer this exact question.

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And having less reason to get better or a tool, fight or even a gate for other content like Titan was to coil, will have people remain the same. Those I've mentioned plenty of time in this thread. However many players still don't know why they are booted or whatnot, so a tool would help them to see why and who knows then they will stop say people harass them if they dps is low and they can actually see for themselves. I also edited my post and sorry didn't see your edit so here is your reply.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

If devs know that the parsers would lead to an increased understanding of your job, and we all know that players who learn to play better enjoy the class more, which helps keep player retention, why wouldn't they add such?

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Because a parser will be far more used for harassment than improvement.

Look at the examples that were shown here : "DPS doing 500 instead of 1500", "a BLM casting only Ice magic"...you don't need a parser to see the flaws in those people. Like you don't need a parser to see a tank not using cooldown and taking way too much damage. What a parser will do is helping you to go from really good to best...to gain those last 10% DPS you might lack in your rotation. And even for those 10%, we actually have a way to judge our rotation, with Stone, Sky and Sea.

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Originally Posted by Shug

No matter what, some people are going to be jerks, but if you want to dps check everything, at least give us something legal we can use. I see no harm in allowing it in PF for non-duty finder. And if they put in a parser and say raid wide dps needs to be x, now you at least have a starting point and know everyone is capable of hitting that number.

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Which is why I find making SSS a requirement to have access to certain instances completely acceptable. Really its the only entry block in regards to dps that SE could feasibly enforce.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Which is why I find making SSS a requirement to have access to certain instances completely acceptable.

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It's such a simple solution that it's a shame they didn't thought about it. Or, at least, giving an achievement so that you can prove you passed that challenge.
They could even make one achievement for each challenge and each job.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

There is a difference between "not knowing your class" and being 10% below perfection, which in these days, means you're absolute garbage.

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Its not about the "10%". For Midas Savage you need around 70% of what is possible, maybe less. But there are so many people, which are far away from being at 70%. Without knowing the numbers, you will never know where you need to improve. Without knowing what exactly went wrong, you can't make any progress.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

And, by the way, tanking checks are ridiculously low compared to DPS check.

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Outside Savage: Yes.

Inside Savage: No.

Its not a good idea to talk about tank and heal checks, when you have never done content where it does matter. Yes, outside of Savage (and maybe Ex Primals in the first week after release) there is no content where tank and healer skills get checked. But in Savage you would be surprised, how much you have to do in these roles to sucessfully beat it at the end.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

Its not about the "10%". For Midas Savage you need around 70% of what is possible, maybe less. But there are so many people, which are far away from being at 70%. Without knowing the numbers, you will never know where you need to improve. Without knowing what exactly went wrong, you can't make any progress.

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Or those with ilvl 230 cant pass faust. Honestly even if you pass SSS, doesn't really mean anything when you have to deal with mechanics as well. Specially on classes like where you need to keep stacks up or movement like brd, mch and BLM have.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You forgot to mention how tanks are healers would also need a parser to do the most DPS they can...and you also forgot that we have Stone, Sky, and Sea, which gives a precise objective in the DPS requirement without showing any actual number. Who could have thought ?

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Let's answer the first part of your post - healer and tank DPS isn't as important as the damage dealer's DPS. Consider the following quote from this interview from a year ago:

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Yoshida: Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers. Then when those publish clear videos and other people see the healers DPSing, they might think that healers need to be DPSing even though its a situation that only arose because their clear would have otherwise been impossible. While we could take this into account, and assume a different item level in the next update which would then make it impossible to clear even with the healer DPS, we'd eliminate this type of play for highly skilled players who use communication, items, and a high level of understanding to come up with those last second clears. That would be a tough decision to make, so I still think it should be up to each party's own plans.

This is also one of the reasons we decided to implement both a normal and savage version of Alexander. Once again, healer DPS was not included in the development team's calculation as it was for other jobs, so you should just think of healer DPS as a last way to get your overall party's DPS up to where it needs to be.

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Tank DPS is rather straight forward and if you consider Tank DPS = DPS necessary to maintain enmity throughout the fight. This value is fairly small compared to the value DPS need to push forward.

Healer and tank DPS is a secondary function to their role and an additional bonus to the group for those who can perform those secondary functions without compromising their primary purpose. Similarly, while a BLM / SMN can provide additional defensive support via Virus and Eye for an Eye, their primary function is to pulverize the mob.

A DPS measuring tool is much more important for a DPS than it is for a Healer or Tank.

Now, to answer the second part of your post - SSS is just a training dummy with a time limit in it. It doesn't teach you anything about the fight in question - just if you have the capability to perform the fight with your current gear and skill level. For example, the SSS may have a DPS check of 1,500 but the actual fight might be a DPS check of 1,200 due to mechanics and the player in question is only doing say 800 DPS when actually put into the fight itself but is still able to complete the SSS.

A DPS that is just going off "muh feels" and hoping that their ability to perform well in SSS allows them to perform well in the fight itself. Without knowing what this metric for a DPS is, it's difficult to gauge if a DPS is improving in real time. If a DPS knows they need 1,200 DPS to perform and are only capable of 800 at this time, then objectively they have to find ways to optimize themselves to reach that goal and it would be clear cut. Of course having these numbers is just only one part of the equation. The DPS in question also needs to realize how to disassemble the fight in such a way where they may be better off using Combo B instead of Combo A at time frame Y of the fight since it'll allow more potency per second for that time frame. What knowing their DPS allows them to do at this point in time is to compare how their DPS is using Combo B over Combo A and if there is an overall DPS increase after X number of attempts, then they know they're improving by changing their thought process.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

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Couldn't have said it better! Thanks :)