Shots Fired: A Machinist Guide

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Originally Posted by Ephier

Read up.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...condary_stats/

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Not enough proof. Still, 70 DET = 1% DPS increase? I'm fine with that, better than 700 ACC or 650 SS.

What I mainly want to know is with these rotations, when do you toggle Gauss barrel exactly outside of the opener? Never? In conjunction with cooldowns?

I want to point out that in the change log it was mentioned:

"With the addition of crit it seemed that higher crit skewed the results in favor of having Gauss Barrel active; it means that higher iLvl will result in quite a large gap between not having Gauss Barrel active and having it active."

So if this is true then the effectiveness of Gauss Barrel mostly relies on gear. So experience and practicality may vary based on the individual.

tldr; if you lack in gear Gauss Barrel might only be useful as an opener, if you are very geared you may benefit from trying to keep Gauss Barrel up often.

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Originally Posted by Divebombs

I see. Testing things out myself now. Do you save Reload to time with your burst after the opener or just use it on CD?

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I use it on cd. And I toggle gauss off after the last slug before wildfire goes off and keep it off.

Cascadi during your tests were you able to determine what the minimum crit range was in order for Gauss Barrel to become effective to cycle in frequently? Or just have it stay on if possible?

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Originally Posted by Elizabeth

Not enough proof. Still, 70 DET = 1% DPS increase? I'm fine with that, better than 700 ACC or 650 SS.

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From that
70 det = 6.5 str : 1 str = 10.769
50 crit = 6.5 str : 1 str = 7.69

1 det = 0.09
1 crit = 0.13

i180 choker = 38.86 dex
i160 choker = 37.59 dex

i180 earring = ??? ( need SS weight)
i160 earring = 37.59 dex

i180 belt = ??? ( need SS weight)
i160 belt = 37.59 dex

Seeing as how SS is pretty useless on MCH as they only have 1 dot and it does not seem to affect turret (I could be wrong), I can agree that i160 belt and earrings are better than i180, but not the choker. Even though the stat weights are not concrete it gives a rough idea of whats good and bad.

What do you guys think of this? The opener is different to any I've seen since the Rapidfire nerf.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...the_minutemen/

IDK, I think I suck at MCH right now maybe I'm still not accustomed to it yet, but as far as I know, hardcasting GB during the opener with your buffs up is a total waste?

So I'm i176 with an i180 Kai weapon. I've tried parsing on a dummy using Gauss Barrel as an opener only, using Gauss barrel toggled in time with my CDs, and using Gauss full times. I can't find a noticeable difference between the parses (820-840 each time).

Which is truly best, and am I doing something wrong to have numbers so low?

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

IDK, I think I suck at MCH right now maybe I'm still not accustomed to it yet, but as far as I know, hardcasting GB during the opener with your buffs up is a total waste?

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Hardcasting GB anytime when you can attack soemthing is wasted DPS. It should be done pre-pull or during a pause.

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Originally Posted by Divebombs

So I'm i176 with an i180 Kai weapon. I've tried parsing on a dummy using Gauss Barrel as an opener only, using Gauss barrel toggled in time with my CDs, and using Gauss full times. I can't find a noticeable difference between the parses (820-840 each time).

Which is truly best, and am I doing something wrong to have numbers so low?

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With or without party buff? I was doing in the low 800s with fulltime GB and party buffs. Eithercase, the numbers being that close together isn't usual from my experience. GB doesn't add enough dps in teh long run to pull it ahead of non-GB, and loses out to GB-burst (when rapid fire bug still existed).

Though I do like it for mindless farming. It's better at bursting and deals out damage quicker. Sustained is a different story though.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Hardcasting GB anytime when you can attack soemthing is wasted DPS. It should be done pre-pull or during a pause.

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Which makes me puzzled because the reddit post that dude's rotation starts without GB and uses GB mid opener and hardcasts GB every 30s D:

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

Which makes me puzzled because the reddit post that dude's rotation starts without GB and uses GB mid opener and hardcasts GB every 30s D:

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Depends on how old the post is. You were able to instant GB with rapid fire until yesterday's hotfix.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Depends on how old the post is. You were able to instant GB with rapid fire until yesterday's hotfix.

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Go read the post, it was after the fix and he stated it was after the fix himself D:

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Originally Posted by arctic

Cascadi during your tests were you able to determine what the minimum crit range was in order for Gauss Barrel to become effective to cycle in frequently? Or just have it stay on if possible?

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The minimum crit for GB to be better than no GB assuming that Ricochet was used whenever off CD was predicted to be around 10%, and the parses in game I've done seem to point that way as well. To show the true intent of what I think Square Enix intended with Gauss Barrel, go into an instance with Echo and parse, it will become really apparent that having Gauss Barrel on is big.

Here are two 4 minute parses with the same crit % with around the same number of procs used with i180 weapon, i160 belt + i170 rest left side and i160 earrings/ring + i170 ring/bracelets/neck, no party no food no pots. However, in practical fights at the moment, Gauss Barrel doesn't seem to be very viable as a couple of lost weaponskills will drag down the DPS. That's why Gauss Barrel needs a buff as well as Wanderer's Minuet for Bard.

w/ GB full time
http://i.imgur.com/jA2m0xS.png

w/ GB only on during opener + whenever Wildfire used
http://i.imgur.com/gSyrvwo.png

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Hardcasting GB anytime when you can attack soemthing is wasted DPS. It should be done pre-pull or during a pause.

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Actually, hard casting GB is not wasted DPS before Wildfire, as you can get off Ricochet + Gauss Round (total of 600 * 1.2 = 720 potency) as well as a buffed Head Graze/Blank and turn it off right after that is done, you lose out on 6 seconds with that period which is 200 potency (100 potency per 3 seconds for auto attacks).

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Originally Posted by Cascadi

Actually, hard casting GB is not wasted DPS before Wildfire, as you can get off Ricochet + Gauss Round (total of 600 * 1.2 = 720 potency) as well as a buffed Head Graze/Blank and turn it off right after that is done, you lose out on 6 seconds with that period which is 200 potency (100 potency per 3 seconds for auto attacks).

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Where do you get that auto attacks are 100 potency? Not that they have a potency so to say but they do less than a 100 potency weaponskill such as an unbuffed Clean Shot. You can test it yourself. If you were to compare the dmg to a potency. It'd be close to 80 potency which is what your Rook Autoturret hits for.

Want to know your opinion about rapid fire: i noticed that during the opener while having RF up and popping all the others CDs usually i'm gonna lose a bit on the gcd for the next ws (even if i pop only one cd between ws).
So, if GB gets more relevant as we get better gear, isn't better to keep RF out of opener and use it when you need to move? (obviously only if u have GB up)
(I know that at the moment GB is a dps loss if used out of opener but will be always like this?)

Rapid-Fire doesnt affect Gauss-Barrel any more. Thanks SE : (
Now we have to hard-cast GB, which makes MCH even more worse T_T

Dont get me wrong, I love playing MCH. But SE must make some adjustments!

I mean, come on! Even the paladin does more damage than the machinist O_O

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Originally Posted by Caitlyn

Rapid-Fire doesnt affect Gauss-Barrel any more. Thanks SE : (
Now we have to hard-cast GB, which makes MCH even more worse T_T

Dont get me wrong, I love playing MCH. But SE must make some adjustments!

I mean, come on! Even the paladin does more damage than the machinist O_O

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with the case of ravana ex and bismarck ex there are moements where you could hardcast GB i know bismarck is a easy one when you have dots on you from being on the back you'll have to wait 4-6 seconds before you can jump on awayways that is the perfect time to GB and unload on bismarck back. with ravana there is VERY VERY little room to hardcast GB. and probably the start to keep gb on till rest of the fight case rest of the fight usually has you moving a ton.

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Originally Posted by Shhikasan

with the case of ravana ex and bismarck ex there are moements where you could hardcast GB i know bismarck is a easy one when you have dots on you from being on the back you'll have to wait 4-6 seconds before you can jump on awayways that is the perfect time to GB and unload on bismarck back. with ravana there is VERY VERY little room to hardcast GB. and probably the start to keep gb on till rest of the fight case rest of the fight usually has you moving a ton.

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I can't recall off hand but there's quite a few openings to hardcast GB in Ravana EX

You can keep GB on from the start all the way until he finish his ifrit style dashes actually.

But if you prefer to turn it off after the opener then as much as I can recall off hand:

- After he finishes his Prelude to Liberation and disappears and you deal with the purple circles, you can hard cast GB and go nuts on him as he comes back and charges for Liberation and does his ifrit style dashes. You can keep GB on for the entire of phase 3 if you are confident not to screw up during the all-seeing stances, which you should try to, since this is adds phase without any dodging mechanics.

- Phase 4 isn't a GB friendly phase due to knockbacks, stacking for Laughing Rose, prey movements and Rose of Hate. Prob should turn it off

- Swift liberation: you can hardcast during the time he charges and can probably keep it until you have to deal with Final Liberation prey mechanic

- Final Liberation: You can hardcast GB when he does the lunar dynamo thing but the 2nd one when you have to stay at the edge and keep it until the pillars of heaven knockback again.

I've toyed around with various different rotations re: GB in Ravana and can say the only point at which I HAD to turn it off at all was at the orbs, at which point I will keep it off for awhile as the fight gets pretty movement intense after that.

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Originally Posted by Divebombs

I've toyed around with various different rotations re: GB in Ravana and can say the only point at which I HAD to turn it off at all was at the orbs, at which point I will keep it off for awhile as the fight gets pretty movement intense after that.

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Could have just spammed feint which is effectively 144 potency with gauss barrel on (120*1.2), still lower DPS than no gauss barrel in that portion, but do not HAVE to turn it off.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

Could have just spammed feint which is effectively 144 potency with gauss barrel on (120*1.2), still lower DPS than no gauss barrel in that portion, but do not HAVE to turn it off.

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Actually a bit more than that with Increased Action Damage. Kind of sucks that it's multiplicative with GB and not additive. That hurts the actual damage increase that GB gives you.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Actually a bit more than that with Increased Action Damage. Kind of sucks that it's multiplicative with GB and not additive. That hurts the actual damage increase that GB gives you.

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How so?

120*(1.2*1.2) = 172.8
120*(1.4) = 168

Multiplicative is still higher unless I am doing something wrong.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

How so?

120*(1.2*1.2) = 172.8
120*(1.4) = 168

Multiplicative is still higher unless I am doing something wrong.

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Hmm... Looks like my math was off. For some reason I was multiplying 1.2*.2 instead. So that means Cleaner Shot would be equal to about 288 or 327 with ammo active. Which isn't too bad potency wise, especially when factoring 94 potency from turret. I definitely think the problem lies more in the loss of auto attacks. Without GB, Cleaner Shot would be doing 240 without reload 264 with. So it's 48 or 63 less, which is less than what we lose giving up auto-attacks. We'd also be getting the lower potency of 288 most of the time due to limited ammo.

Unfortunately, while Gauss Round and Ricochet may make up for the rest of the damage loss, they don't justify the loss in mobility. And the RNG nature of our procs doesn't help us much, though considering split shot has around 200 potency with GB, it's pretty good for not chain weapon skill. I think Ninjas opening only does 160.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Hmm... Looks like my math was off. For some reason I was multiplying 1.2*.2 instead. So that means Cleaner Shot would be equal to about 288 or 327 with ammo active. Which isn't too bad potency wise, especially when factoring 94 potency from turret. I definitely think the problem lies more in the loss of auto attacks. Without GB, Cleaner Shot would be doing 240 without reload 264 with. So it's 48 or 63 less, which is less than what we lose giving up auto-attacks. We'd also be getting the lower potency of 288 most of the time due to limited ammo.

Unfortunately, while Gauss Round and Ricochet may make up for the rest of the damage loss, they don't justify the loss in mobility.

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After playing around with GB you can make yourself decently mobile. BRD definitely has it worse than us, 20% chance to proc SS. We have 50% chance on procs, ammo, and if procs are not complying we have rapid fire for mobility. If rapid fire and ammo are down, feint. +_+

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Originally Posted by Ephier

After playing around with GB you can make yourself decently mobile. BRD definitely has it worse than us, 20% chance to proc SS. We have 50% chance on procs, ammo, and if procs are not complying we have rapid fire for mobility. If rapid fire and ammo are down, feint. +_+

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I don't have too many problems with mobility and GB now that I'm used to it. It still gives a bit of a DPS loss due to loss of auto attacks, which is problem with it. No real point in using it outside of opener if it restricts your movement for a dps loss (or at the very least no gain).

I appologise if I'm breaking the discussion here, but how viable is Feint exactly ? I've seen some people suggesting Feint in some situations that I cannot quite understand.
I've been reading most of the things on the forum about MCH but I still wanted to clear that one out.

Ephier, what do you mean ''if rapid fire and ammo are down, feint'' ?

Feint doesn't get a cast time I believe, so you can use it while moving. So if you're using GB and have to move a lot and cast get a cast off, you can use Feint as a stop gap until you can. Rapid Fire removes the normal cast time for the next three weapon skills, which allows you to move as well.

Hmmm wait, so u're saying Feint doesn't have a cast time with GB on? If that's true, then u mean u add Feint to the whole ''GB Ability-kit'' I believe.

But are u suppose to squeeze Feint into ur non-GB rotation? I mean, I think you always get more benefits from trying to proc Split Shot

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Originally Posted by Cascadi

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Is wildfire before or after the buffs? If it's after the buffs, that's 3 seconds of wasted buff uptime that could've been applied to auto attacks and other shots. Not to mention that wildfire gets its defense calculated twice that the damage won't quite add up 1:1. (in otherwords, does the added wildfire damage make up for the loss of 3 seconds?)

And a bit unrelated ot the actual discussion, but I severely hate wildfire's application in some of these fights. During both Bis and Rav's vulnerbility phases (corona and liberations), they have a tendency to bugger off before wildfire triggers unless I use it early during my cooldown pops.

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Originally Posted by SaintCartridge

I appologise if I'm breaking the discussion here, but how viable is Feint exactly ? I've seen some people suggesting Feint in some situations that I cannot quite understand.
I've been reading most of the things on the forum about MCH but I still wanted to clear that one out.

Ephier, what do you mean ''if rapid fire and ammo are down, feint'' ?

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Typically you are mobile if you have procs, if you do not have any procs you can use rapid fire for 3 instant cast shots, and if you have no procs or rapid fire you can use feint.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

I don't have too many problems with mobility and GB now that I'm used to it. It still gives a bit of a DPS loss due to loss of auto attacks, which is problem with it. No real point in using it outside of opener if it restricts your movement for a dps loss (or at the very least no gain).

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I agree, in fights with no downtime GB after opener is bad, anything that would cause you to interrupt the cast would be a huge dps loss. Fights like bismark and ravana do have downtime to put it back on though and get a quick pew pew off and drop it again. The only reason I am even getting used to full time GB is just incase they make it worth while to use full time.

I see. Thank you Ephier! :)


RiceisNice I think wildfire has to be applied after the buffs.

You are right, we loose a couple of seconds in DPS. But its better to loose that, than to loose the Wildfire itself.
Cuz think about it, if you put wildifire first and buffs after, then you gonna go like, for example: split shot - blood for blood - slug shot - hawk eye - etc

While if you put buffs first and wildfire after, eventhough u loose some seconds on the buff, u make the most of the wildfire, for example: split shot - blank - slug shot - ressemble - etc

The thing is, you loose something in both cases, but if im not seeing things totally wrong, then I believe you DO have to put buffs up first.

Yes in that circunstance Tsilyi I totally agree with you!

But we can definitely confirm that, if Wildfire has a chance to go off, its always better to put buffs first then wildfire after, correct ?

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Originally Posted by SaintCartridge

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Now that I think about it, you could just apply gauss then the buffs. Though I'm still iffy on the downtime for just that. I can see it working for burst damage on vulnerability phases (again which do exist like coronas or liberation), but outside of that it's really cumbersome and iffy with the defense calculations on wildfire.

Hmm true. Using Gauss + buffs into that vulnerability phases of ravana ex is when MCH dps is gonna shine indeed! And that is advised for pretty much 99% of the any other boss content still to come.
Unfortunately RiceisNice I can't discuss this matter further since I'm just gonna jump into Ravana Ex today for the first time (eventhough I've saw videos already).

In regard to wildfire, I do believe Ravana's jumps do mess up the ability alot, not allowing it to go off and I thank you for bringing that up cuz Im totally gonna be looking at that during the fight.
But if there's a chance for wildfire to go off when it has to go off, then I think we should always back it up with buffs first.

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Originally Posted by SaintCartridge

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Ravana has a lot of vulnerability phases where he takes more damage, and I'd argue that MCH has one of the better burst damage game with GB. It's a matter of holding off your cooldowns for the liberation channeling and timing up everything so you can load off everything and get wildfire to trigger before he buggers off.

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Originally Posted by Cascadi

Actually, hard casting GB is not wasted DPS before Wildfire, as you can get off Ricochet + Gauss Round (total of 600 * 1.2 = 720 potency) as well as a buffed Head Graze/Blank and turn it off right after that is done, you lose out on 6 seconds with that period which is 200 potency (100 potency per 3 seconds for auto attacks).

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You also lose out on 2 GCDs which under regular circumstances would be 2xsplit and AAs are around 80 potency so its 440potency. Plus popping GB before or after buffs will also cut into GCD/buff time so i'd say you actually lose 3 GCDs which is about 620 potency assuming its 2x split and a slug.

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Originally Posted by Haxetc

Where do you get that auto attacks are 100 potency? Not that they have a potency so to say but they do less than a 100 potency weaponskill such as an unbuffed Clean Shot. You can test it yourself. If you were to compare the dmg to a potency. It'd be close to 80 potency which is what your Rook Autoturret hits for.

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It's 100 potency per 3 seconds depending on your auto attack delay. So if you have a Hive Musketoon which has an auto attack delay of 2.64, the potency of your auto attacks would roughly be:

Delay / 3.00 * 100 = Auto-Attack Potency
100 * 2.64 / 3 = 88 potency

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

You also lose out on 2 GCDs which under regular circumstances would be 2xsplit and AAs are around 80 potency so its 440potency. Plus popping GB before or after buffs will also cut into GCD/buff time so i'd say you actually lose 3 GCDs which is about 620 potency assuming its 2x split and a slug.

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2/3 GCDs? Gauss Barrel cast time is 3 seconds, and if you use it right after a GCD (which is the best time to cast it) assuming a 2.3-2.4s GCD, you still only lose out on 1 GCD. Even if you did have Rapid Fire up, you'd lose out on 2 GCDs because 1.5s GCD, and since Rapid Fire isn't consumed by Gauss Barrel, you'd still be able to pull off buffed Split/Slug/Clean Shots as well as having access to Ricochet + Gauss Round which is still higher potency (1x split + slug + auto attack - 420 potency, 1x ricochet + gauss round - 600 * 1.2 = 720 potency)