Why I Decided to Become an Elitist

Like don't get me wrong. I join learning parties when I have free time and I have no issue helping people who don't know mechanics learn then when they ask for help.
BUT
If you're looking for an experienced clear, BE EXPERIENCED. If you're dead weight and expecting to get carried, go and screw yourself.
If I ask if everyone knows what they're doing, and you refuse to ask about what to look out for, and you wipe the party, I WILL kick you.
If there is absolutely ZERO chance of clearing, and it's blatantly obvious, it only takes one wipe to find out. If I join a T5 party and you can't even kill a goddamn conflag, why the hell am I going to waste an hour trying to clear this shit if it's painfully obvious that you can't clear? Why waste time in a T9 clear if you can't even get to HF?
Just because YOU think it's possible doesn't mean it is. Anyone experienced can see if a run is actually possible in 3 runs at most. If it's not possible, you're just wasting our time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sesuadra

so...everyone who wants to learn a fight and wants to be good is an elitist?
because that is what you actually are saying. If I go into a fight, I want to win. if we wipe I laugh about it, remember my mistakes and try to not do them again, because I want to be as good as possible. If new people are with me, I explain everything and hope they try their best.

But I do not see that as elitist..I see that as normal human behaviour o...,o. Try to be the very best like no one every was.

---

if only everyone had this mentality, we would have oodles of difficult content flowing from SE. instead we are stuck with 1 hardcore raid every 6 months because people can't be bothered to even learn their basic rotation

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sackm

if only everyone had this mentality, we would have oodles of difficult content flowing from SE. instead we are stuck with 1 hardcore raid every 6 months because people can't be bothered to even learn their basic rotation

---

Meh, people cry over difficult content. Remember Pharos? nerfed to the ground. Some people complained and said "The reward is not good enough". WTH?! Isn't the challenge good enough?! Why do you need a reward for everything you do?! Steps? Probs to get nerfed too, based on the Nico Nico interview. If you introduce some "hard content", people will whine about it because "it's out of their reach" and every party they're in "they fail because of the other 7 guys". We can't attain that mindset with the current playerbase, because you saw the results. Ask SE to nerf T9, you'll be flooded with likes by other players. Just to give an example.

Some people play this game "for fun", and apparently a challenging encounter is "not fun". Then they complain at SE because "they don't know how to handle the mechanics and T9 (again and as example) is a bad design". Then they won't give any alternative and if they do, it'll end up being super easy and everybody will faceroll it in no time. Like any single player game.

It's true that people don't care "to be a good player", they only play "for fun" and then they post on the forums "how X content is not fun for them because of <<elitist>>, "bad design" (design that they can't clear or understand), lag, too hard, don't bother to learn".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krr

snip

---

.I think you're missing a key point here. Yeah, the OP became good, but he likely jumped in early when no one knew how the fights were done and did it when the content was fresh and learned through the plethora of learning parties that are prevalent around that stage of the game. If you jump in 4 patches down the road and expect people to just be hunky dorey with you because you're new to a fight that has been out for months, then you're kidding yourself. I mean seriously do you really think when he says "I've watched the party from the floor and wished them luck" or however he says that in the OP, that he means it from the standpoint of a farm party? No, he was probably in a learning party busting his ass.

But don't get me wrong, I think it sucks that new players go through this, but that's just how it is. People who spent a butt load of time learning fights don't want to go back and spend butt loads of time re learning fights for people behind the curve, can you blame them?

There will -always- be a sense of elitism, why? Because old content that retain difficult mechanics and gate other content will be phased out by the community who actively keep up with the game, and those guys want to go in and farm, not wipe for hours. I mean, it's just a fact of life when you're behind the curve, there will always be people who come in late and want to learn, which is fine, but make learning parties, you think the guy who made this post just jumped into farm parties to be that guy and piss everyone off with a soldiery bonus? Probably not, he did his time, just like everyone else whose cleared those fights x months ago.

As someone heavily involved with endgame in this god forsaken game, I don't have any pity for people who want to jump into farm parties with no clears, no experience, just for a handout, I'm not expecting you to put the same amount of time I did into clearing the fights, it wouldn't make sense for you to, you have more gear, more resources, everything gives you an advantage, but if you seriously want to try to get into the inner circles of doing this type of content, getting carried is a good way to get a stigma to your name where no one will want to play with you in any form of serious content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cyrus-Wallace

Meh, people cry over difficult content.

---

While I agree to an extent, there is also plenty of content where small errors can grow wildly out of control. The margin for error grows much narrower, and even if only one team member makes a mistake the entire team can suffer as a result. Coil is a good example of this, and a good example of why there needs to be a selection of lower difficulty content.

It's not really the difficulty that everyone has problems with. It's the teamwork aspect. In virtually every area of the game, you're encouraged to be independent. Story quests are solo affairs, dungeons don't require a great deal of coordination and DPS largely just have to hit things as hard as they can. When you take those players and put them into content where everyone has to coordinate with each other it becomes 8 people doing their own solo play and simply trying not to die themselves.

The problem is information overload. There's just too much to keep track of, and it's very hard to get into a mindset where you can do your role properly AND focus on everything else going on. If you're a healer, you're trying to cure 7 other people whilst dodging a billion AoE's, and remembering to pass on that Allagan Rot or that [insert mechanic here]. If you're a DPS you're focusing on getting the right rotation out, despite all the dodging you need to do, since it's critical to deal X amount of damage in Y amount of time or the team will fail.

The problem, in my opinion, isn't that the players want things to be easy, it's simply because there's no progressive means of reaching that plateau. The two types of content available are wildly different in how they play overall. Still don't believe me? Take a look at Crystal Tower.

Crystal Tower is a good example because of how things changed drastically after the first raid. In it, your job is to split parties into individual roles. Each party relies more heavily on the others and each one has their own tasks to perform. Because of this, it was a disaster at launch with people decrying how difficult it was. Look at Syrcus Tower, the subsequent follow-up. Streamlined, easier content. Less teamwork heavy, so that if someone screws up the entire raid can still manage fine. There are very few instant-kill mechanics, and those that do exist are heavily telegraphed.

Now, finally, look at World of Darkness. Very much similar to Syrcus Tower, it's a very streamlined raid. It gently introduces some new mechanics, such as revisiting the Atomos and Cerberus' belly. However, neither one of those is particularly difficult and missing out on Cerberus' belly won't prevent you winning, even if it does greatly increase the time taken to win. It's far more progressive overall.

The point I'm making is that when the content is so different to everything else you've played, it takes time for players to get used to the idea. Some learn faster than others, but others will always have difficulty with the sheer number of things they have to remember to do. Or not to do. It's far too easy to label a player as terrible when they were so focused on avoiding that ONE thing that they triggered another. And unfortunately, that's virtually every coil ever.

You should probably calm down.
Just saying.
I will admit that FF14 thinks Memorizing = Difficulty. And I wish 3.0 isnt like that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cyrus-Wallace

Remember Pharos?

---

I had a dream... Pharos returning back to its original glory...

http://stuffpoint.com/anime-and-mang...-cry-i-cry.jpg

Then I woke up and it were only a dream... cry...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemuria

Coil is a good example of this, and a good example of why there needs to be a selection of lower difficulty content.

---

Honestly, I just don't agree. 90% of the game is easy content, dungeons/towers/trials (even extremes to be honest) is relatively low - mid level difficulty. Even first and second coil has been reduced to mid range content and FCOB is on its way their now with overgearing and echo.

As for the whole relying on 7 other people thing, I agree it can be a pain when one person insta wipes you, but for me the main issue comes down to people just not thinking.
T9 is a prime example of this, mechanically it is harder than t13, granted its now a little faceroll due to overgearing and echo but still the mechanics are there, this can be done in PF, hell its been done in DF. So if people can do it, the only excuse others have, is that they are not trying to improve or pulling their weight. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but it's just true there is no special skill set required in this game, nothing requires you to have lightning quick reflexes, everything can be learned and you can improve with some thought and effort and knowledge of both your class and the mechanics.

Playing your class to its maximum and knowing the mechanics and the most optimum way to heal/DPS/position the boss/adds and to continue your role is what end game raiding is all about.

The main reason I think people fail at end game, is they have ZERO raid awareness, they are so focused on dodging that next mechanic that they don't see what the hell is going on around them, if everyone had better raid awareness then DF groups would be fantastic, people could adjust on the fly to a bad meteor placement. Double ice about to hit you? No worries just gonna chase down that fire out. Instead people just tunnel vision trying to do their classes role which is not how it should be, you should know your class inside out, that should just be muscle memory and second nature to you.

It sounds like I'm being an ass and just telling people to get better, and in a way I guess I am but my point is, end game raiders or 'elitists' are not some sort of super genius, they're not some sort of athlete with lightning fast reflexes, average people who have just put the time and effort in to know the game, that's ALL it takes. So in other words...anyone can do it. Unfortunately some people would rather come and ask for nerfs/echo in end game, and then they ask for nerfs in steps, and then they pull 200 DPS in WOD, and still wonder why they can't down T5.

Being an elitist and an asshole are not the same thing, but sometimes I can see how end game raiders get a little annoyed when they go back to do old content and people are wiping left and right. On the flip side, people getting annoyed at end game raiders because they say everythings easy, take a step back and ask yourself why you haven't cleared X content, is it REALLY because of the 7 other people, or do you need to go back to basics and get better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kiroh

Then let me put this in a way you can comprehend.

You have an obligation as a human being to not be a liability to everyone around you.

---

Ah. A day back on the forums and I'm already reminded why I put half the people here on ignore.


If you are going to write something this stupid and incorrect, atleast try to make it sound funny so its enjoyable to read, yes?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jamein

Being an elitist and an asshole are not the same thing

---

But it does not help that theres a lot of assholes arguing that elitism is a good thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemuria

The problem is information overload.

---

I won't speak for everyone else, but for me the only limiting factor in the game is the ridiculous delays. If the game was actually in realtime instead of realtime + lolserverdelay + letsplayagameofcardswhileiwaitforcastdelay, it would be a lot more forgiving for people, I think.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sesuadra

so...everyone who wants to learn a fight and wants to be good is an elitist?

---

This is how it is these days, I feel. Especially on here, people call every raider an "elitist" just because raiders do content they can't do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aeyis

Ah. A day back on the forums and I'm already reminded why I put half the people here on ignore.

---

I'm sorry, I'll correct that right away.

You have a duty as a human being to not be a liability to everyone around you if you don't want to be a complete and utter failure that drags everyone else down with you.

Holy shit, 38 pages. When i went to sleep, I could have sworn there were 15 or so, if that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jamein

The main reason I think people fail at end game, is they have ZERO raid awareness, they are so focused on dodging that next mechanic that they don't see what the hell is going on around them, if everyone had better raid awareness then DF groups would be fantastic, people could adjust on the fly to a bad meteor placement. Double ice about to hit you? No worries just gonna chase down that fire out. Instead people just tunnel vision trying to do their classes role which is not how it should be, you should know your class inside out, that should just be muscle memory and second nature to you.

---

I agree and disagree. The errors you noted shouldn't be there in the first place, and if we don't correct the source, it'll happen again. Babying doesn't create skill. Placed a meteor bad? Call the person out. Make sure that doesn't happen again.

Nobody should be blaming elitists for being elitists or casuals for being casuals. We all pay our however much gil per month for the game and should be free to play the game as we wish. Some people could be nicer though, that would be cool.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skeith-Adeline

I agree and disagree. The errors you noted shouldn't be there in the first place, and if we don't correct the source, it'll happen again. Babying doesn't create skill. Placed a meteor bad? Call the person out. Make sure that doesn't happen again.

---

I think you mis-understood, I wasn't saying we should babysit anyone, or not call them out.
What I was trying to get across in that, was that good players can adjust on the fly, sometimes shit does happen and something gets a little off, but if you know what you are doing you can adjust on the go and compensate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by charlemagne

Nobody should be blaming elitists for being elitists or casuals for being casuals. We all pay our however much gil per month for the game and should be free to play the game as we wish. Some people could be nicer though, that would be cool.

---

while i do agree with you to a certain point,paying for the game does not entitle you to play the game 100% how you wish,yes you can play what you want,you can avoid what you don't want to play but,in everything you do you should be aware that other people's fun and free time is at the stake,i am saying this due to the raise of the blizzard blms and the random button clickers that,when told that's not how the class is played start raging and the most common answer to that is something among the lines of "stfu[insert insults and derogatory terms here] i pay sub i play however i want"or the ones not dodging and throwing around the same thing.
yes paying for the game entitles you to play it how you want,but when you are doing something with other people,have atleast a minimal amount of knowledge and ability to not be a liability,it's most apparent with the CT series,where it's almost always 8-10 people carrying,5-7 trying to afk and get carried,and the rest playing bad enough to need being carried

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

Then the good players get tired, they feel their frustration mounting. Maybe they lash out, maybe they just leave. The carried players, still unable to get their clears come to the forums and post things like: "Increase penalty timer for leaving an instance. Community is toxic. I can't get a group. Nerf this fight. Game is full of elitists."

---

this quote right here, this is part of the reason that draws a line between groups, and its a double edge sword. people want to get in, get their 25%/50% echo and try to get the easy win, very few of those people actually TRY to learn the mechanics and learn to play their job well. many people go into instances looking for a carry too, sadly this also pisses some players off badly.

i think what SE SHOULD do, for echo (so bad players and people with connection issues) can actually clear it on their own and not rely on carries is add a slowing effect to cast bars of enemies (while it doesnt help the community as a whole, it will at least make casual players less likely to anger elitist)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jamein

but if you know what you are doing

---

If they knew what they were doing, the issue wouldn't be an issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cutie_McSnuggles

I can mostly agree with you.

However not watching a guide is not the sign of a bad/weak player. To some players the challenge of learning a new fight is more fun then beating it. And often times those players have learned to quickly adapt to new situations and formulate tactics on the fly. This is is skill that is not easily gained and is even harder to obtain if all you ever do is watch/read guides.

---

Sadly that challenge u mention is only available the first week of a new content release. After that, and specially on very old content, not studying the fight watching videos or reading a guide, is just being disrespectful to the others that you party with. Many times i´ve seen Titan fights where people simply have no clue at all, and that is a fight that's more than one year old. by coming uninformed you get no challenge, you'll only embarrass yourself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skeith-Adeline

If they knew what they were doing, the issue wouldn't be an issue.

---

Debatable, even those of us who have done the raid 100's of times still have that lapse in judgement once in a while. No one is perfect, you can know something inside and out and on the odd occasion still make a mistake, like I said, as long as everyone knows what they are doing, its easily recoverable.

I forgot to cover the monk in t13 during earthshakers the other night, he assumed I would cover him and we got a nice little puddle next to bahamut, it happens, but we just adjusted the megaflare positions and carried on, no big deal.

This is a fail thread and doesn't not contribute to anything positive to the community. There's more and more egocentric people joining in for no reason.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mature

This is a fail thread and doesn't contribute to anything positive to the community. There's more and more egocentric people joining in for no reason.

---

I think this was kind of what the OP wanted, seeing as she chose to joined in on the berating of nameless people than can't do content.

This thread was getting to be a few steps short of a witch hunt anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mature

This is a fail thread and doesn't not contribute to anything positive to the community. There's more and more egocentric people joining in for no reason.

---

double negative becomes positive, so this thread does contribute to the community after all!

Personally, I feel that having to study and research for a game fight is a bit silly. If it were any other type of game (or any other type of RPG, for that matter), it would be considered cheating. I don't see why people are so utterly shocked an appalled when they run into people that don't feel that it's necessary to research a fight, before the first try.

Even though it does not thrill me to do so, I choose to "do the research," not because I want to be prepared for the fight, but rather I do not want to inconvenience the other players with my ignorance. Failure cost time, and I'd imagine not too many people are thrilled about wasting time, especially because of someone else. Explaining the fight, via text, besides being difficult, also take an obscene amount of time. Again, people shouldn't be too shocked and appalled that people aren't lining up to be an FFXIV tutor, especially during the fight instance.

I don't think the blame can be totally left on the players, since the game design itself remains totally complacent. The challenge of difficulty shouldn't be in finishing, but rather in doing well. Perhaps the dev team should consider implementing some sort of individual ranking for instance fights, similar to how they handle performance with FATEs. There should also be more of an incentive placed on doing well in a fight. The best rewards should be reserved for those that do well. For example, if you spend majority of a Titan fight at the lowest level of the Navel, perhaps you shouldn't earn the right to roll on loot, or any of the reward tomes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashman

I have several friends whom I care about very deeply but when they ask for help I know for a fact they're going to still (after months of content being out) have put forth absolutely no effort into getting up to speed. I don't mean "they haven't logged 50 hours reading guides and watching videos". I mean they haven't even said "hey can someone explain this mechanic to me".... in the MONTHS the content has been out and they've been sitting in social shells complaining about A) they can't ever get anything accomplished and B) there's no one talking when they're on (literally the only two things they'll say).

Then if i do go insofar as to actually be guilted into helping these people. They will completely not listen to anything I try to tell them (sorry i wasnt paying attention to your briefing), or worse yet: "eh, its old content so i dont need to learn it".

THESE are people I know and give a "care" about. Somehow, the community expects me to go above and beyond and carebear some random with the same sense of entitlement? I think the "abhorant elitests" might make up 3-5% of the "people who try" whereas the "entitled carry me's" make up double digit percents of the "casual community". THAT is a much broader brush and I don't appreciate all the devil's advocates enabling excuses by implying the OP is just generalizing.

---

This sums up my struggles perfectly, and I thank you for sharing it.

This has been my problem with my FC for a LONG time. I'm not going to force anyone to do anything in the game, but if they want my help in clearing something, it's a very unwelcome surprise (especially in old content) if they STILL don't know it, or have not actively made an effort to learn it. I've never turned anyone away as far as helping them learn, I encourage people to try things with or without me, pick my brain, help arrange a learning party, etc. But when we go into Turn 5, and people still can't handle fireballs/conflags properly, yes, THAT is upsetting. THAT kills the fun quick.

I went from complete MMO newbie to "hardcore" raider in the 2 years I've been playing so far. . . And EVERYTHING I've done, I worked for it. No bought clears, no carries (by me or for me), just pure effort. Trial and error. Approaching new content and not just playing it but pushing myself to understand it. Even now, I continue to just push myself to learn. Can I do it as a Bard? Good, now do it as a Ninja. As a WHM. As a tank.

I won't claim myself as an elitist, but I will say this: While I'm far from boastful, I AM proud of the work I've put in to achieve any and every victory I claim. The gear and spoils are completely secondhand to that. I don't expect perfection, even from myself, but I expect preparedness (that is, if we're not running something clearly intended as a learning party). I'm good because I MAKE myself become good. If I can do it, then anyone can. . . IF they work for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DarkDedede

Personally, I feel that having to study and research for a game fight is a bit silly. If it were any other type of game (or any other type of RPG, for that matter), it would be considered cheating. I don't see why people are so utterly shocked an appalled when they run into people that don't feel that it's necessary to research a fight, before the first try.

---

The difference here is that you affect seven other people.

If you want to put together a static that's happy to do fights blind, that's cool. That's what progression groups and world-first groups do before the video guides exist. But if you're joining a group of seven strangers, then you have an obligation to not be a walking, talking liability. To do otherwise is just disrespectful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DarkDedede

I don't think the blame can be totally left on the players, since the game design itself remains totally complacent. The challenge of difficulty shouldn't be in finishing, but rather in doing well. Perhaps the dev team should consider implementing some sort of individual ranking for instance fights, similar to how they handle performance with FATEs. There should also be more of an incentive placed on doing well in a fight. The best rewards should be reserved for those that do well. For example, if you spend majority of a Titan fight at the lowest level of the Navel, perhaps you shouldn't earn the right to roll on loot, or any of the reward tomes.

---

This gets dangerous. Rarely are there situations as black and white as being at the bottom of Titan's arena. When you're asking the game to determine whether or not someone "did well" in a mechanics-heavy fight, you're asking for abuse. I'd point to The Hunt as an example of this. A white mage spamming medica will get his group full credit regardless of whether or not any of that was effective healing. This is the system you're asking to determine who gets loot in content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

This sums up my struggles perfectly, and I thank you for sharing it.

This has been my problem with my FC for a LONG time. I'm not going to force anyone to do anything in the game, but if they want my help in clearing something, it's a very unwelcome surprise (especially in old content) if they STILL don't know it

---

This is the reason why people cannot learn it. If you refusing help how do you expect people to learn?. It's all nice and lovely to ask someone : have you watched a video? And EVEN if they did they don't get help. Plus practice makes better. a video can support the knowledge of the fight but without having someone to put it practice what do you expect?. People in general should be more helpful like they were helpful to YOU. (because we all need help in this game no one was born knowing all the mechanics)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

That's because there is a very high degree of overlap of the two subsets.

---

Yet, they are two different things regardless. People should recognize that fact. You can be an elitist, and asshole, or an elitist AND an asshole. Just because you can be both does not make it accurate to conflate an asshole with an elitist. Simply shows that the person accusing doesn't care about the distinction.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aeyis

If you are going to write something this stupid and incorrect, atleast try to make it sound funny so its enjoyable to read, yes?

---

With regards to the "You have an obligation as a human being not to be a liability to everyone around you" comment, while it could've been worded better, there is truth to it. It's practically a military mindset: "My mistakes can jeopardize my team"

And it's true.

THAT is why some push to be good. That's why some watch videos or make learning parties, and that's the same reason why those same people get upset when someone who is clearly underprepared or willingly ignorant of or ignoring mechanics causes a wipe. In this game, it doesn't matter if 7 people are ready or experienced if that 1 person is not. They ARE a liability. They will jeopardize the team. Maybe not always. Hell, I've gone into things new, and no one knew til we won. Why? Because I came ready. Because I focus. Because I make effort to minimize my liability when I'm that one new guy. Not everyone does it, no. And no one HAS to do it. But I'll be blunt: if you want to win, if you want to be good, you need to prepare. And you need to follow through. If 8 people can come together and operate under that type of mindset, there's NOTHING elitist in it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Callinon

The difference here is that you affect seven other people.

If you want to put together a static that's happy to do fights blind, that's cool. That's what progression groups and world-first groups do before the video guides exist. But if you're joining a group of seven strangers, then you have an obligation to not be a walking, talking liability. To do otherwise is just disrespectful.

---

I am aware of this, which is pretty much what I said in the following paragraph. Since you omitted it from your reply, can I assume that you did not read it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Callinon

This gets dangerous. Rarely are there situations as black and white as being at the bottom of Titan's arena. When you're asking the game to determine whether or not someone "did well" in a mechanics-heavy fight, you're asking for abuse. I'd point to The Hunt as an example of this. A white mage spamming medica will get his group full credit regardless of whether or not any of that was effective healing. This is the system you're asking to determine who gets loot in content.

---

I fail to see how an example about an individual abusing the system for the team, relates to the system gauging the individuals performance.

Any solution that is implemented will be open to some sort of abuse. If RMT proves anything, it's that. However that shouldn't be a reason that a solution shouldn't be considered.

So far, you've either said why my solutions wouldn't work, or conveniently ignored them. Perhaps you have a solution, or perhaps something to add to mine?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mature

This is the reason why people cannot learn it. If you refusing help how do you expect people to learn?

---

You misunderstood me there. Immediately after that, I did say I've never turned anyone away when asking for help, and I encourage them to try, with or without me.

When I said "I don't force anyone. . ." this was with regards to the fact that quite a long time ago, many in my FC made it quite clear that they weren't interested in raiding. One of my friends told me that they simply weren't interested in Coil, and I respect that. I don't ask her to run it, and I don't force her to join any learning parties for it or anything. . . However she DID recently take the initiative and with help from me is now up to T7. I'm proud of her for that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kallera

I think this was kind of what the OP wanted, seeing as she chose to joined in on the berating of nameless people than can't do content.

This thread was getting to be a few steps short of a witch hunt anyway.

---

That's the problem with posts like these is you aren't allowed to criticise them, because if you do you're a scrub.

http://i.imgur.com/dhMeAzK.gif

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DarkDedede

Personally, I feel that having to study and research for a game fight is a bit silly. If it were any other type of game (or any other type of RPG, for that matter), it would be considered cheating. I don't see why people are so utterly shocked an appalled when they run into people that don't feel that it's necessary to research a fight, before the first try.

---

It's more on the philosophy of people joining high-end content in the Duty Finder. I'm not talking about casual trials like Steps of Faith, you can go into that one blind no problem because the NPC actually tells you everything you need to know to clear the instance. It's a story mode fight, and you are likely to get someone or two that may even explain things without hesitation or grief.

But with high-end content like extreme primals and coil, generally the expectation if one is going to use it to form a party is that they have working knowledge of the fight, and preferably experience enough to clear the instance. That is how it works on the Japanese servers. Not at-least researching content that has been out for months to more than a year now is also a way of telling others you don't value their time to help you clear the content in a appropriate amount of time.

Now I don't always discount a soldiery bonus as bad thing. You can have people whom just didn't have the right party together to clear, and if you put them in the right situation where the others know the instance and their own jobs well, they will clear with no problem.

Man, 40 pages and still going.

I think I've stopped caring about distinctions. No matter what I could say here someone will nitpick and call me out on it.

If I find a player who's struggling with content but putting forth effort I'll respect that and help them if needed.
If I find a player who doesn't care/wants to get carried and complains about everything being too hard then I won't care (until alexander normal comes out then no one has any right to complain about savage being too hard edit: barring if a fight actually has a bug or something).
If I find a player, good or bad, who chooses to approach everything with an aggressive "go **** yourself" attitude then I won't have any respect for them and my patience will be exceptionally thin with them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DarkDedede

Personally, I feel that having to study and research for a game fight is a bit silly. If it were any other type of game (or any other type of RPG, for that matter), it would be considered cheating. I don't see why people are so utterly shocked an appalled when they run into people that don't feel that it's necessary to research a fight, before the first try.

---

You make a good point, and honestly I used to feel that way too. But let me point out: this ISN'T any other type of RPG. Its an MMO. And while I still consider myself new to the world of MMOs, I've learned to take it as it is. I expect it to be an MMO, and not something else. That means if it takes a little more work or effort to be good at it, I'll simply do that. I like Tetris too, but that doesn't require, nor offer as much as FFXIV.

Most of my FC and I used to play White Knight Chronicles way back when. We were all pretty good in that too. But none of those good skills transferred over to this game well at all. And I had to reiterate that many times when discussions would break down into "I don't like [insert content here]" or "I wish this was more like [insert WKC reference here]". It's not WKC. In good and bad ways. But that's also the same reason I accept and enjoy FFXIV.

Many of you are choosing not to "hear" what we are saying and cherry-picking things. I do not think there is one person anywhere who says they will not help. Where we get frustrated is when you come undergeared to old content, have no knowledge of the mechanics and don't even use all the abilities of your job. If you are not those things...stop right there, we are not talking you.

However if your groups tend to wipe a lot, you die often, struggle with new content but refuse to do anything to improve and you say," I am joining DF anyway, if you join DF that is what you must expect don't complain to me or anyone else about it"....yeah we think extremely little of you, we don't like you, don't want to help you and wish you would do something else...that's brutal honesty..

Show up and fail, ask what you are doing wrong, say you will go watch of video if it will help, offer to step out if you just can't get it. All of us are probably saying...No please stay we can do this, unless we know you can't. I have led enough raids to know really fast if the group I am with is capable of carrying a player, if we can I will...If the potential for our success is marginal at best, and the undergeared person or someone who fails tothe same mechanic repeatedly should step out for the benefit of others I will tell them.

There are many of you out there, if there wasn't, people would not be here complaining. I join stuff and 7 others all fail to the first mechanic, I can understand why people leave. I don't, I will give it a second shot, if we show improvement count me in, if it is worse or the same or they pull before we can even discuss what went wrong...I'm sorry I'm out have fun

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cutie_McSnuggles

[snip]

---

Pretty much this. I haven't delved super far into late game (haven't done [cleared] Coils, no one to go with.. -_-) but I've played MMOs for a long time. Even if I'm "new," in a few minutes or tries, I'm more than likely going to be better than your worst party member. Give it a little longer, and you won't even notice I'm new.

I hardly ever read read, I just skim over the party-wipe mechanics or one shots. I just adapt to everything else. If I fuck up, I ask people to tell me what I'm doing wrong. I don't get mad if someone tells me I did something dumb.. I'm dead. I did something dumb.

It's all about perspective.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BIues

Pretty much this. I haven't delved super far into late game (haven't done [cleared] Coils, no one to go with.. -_-) but I've played MMOs for a long time. Even if I'm "new," in a few minutes or tries, I'm more than likely going to be better than your worst party member. Give it a little longer, and you won't even notice I'm new.

I hardly ever read read, I just skim over the party-wipe mechanics or one shots. I just adapt to everything else. If I fuck up, I ask people to tell me what I'm doing wrong. I don't get mad if someone tells me I did something dumb.. I'm dead. I did something dumb.

It's all about perspective.

---

You can be in my group anytime, no one here is complaining about you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DarkDedede

I am aware of this, which is pretty much what I said in the following paragraph. Since you omitted it from your reply, can I assume that you did not read it?

---

That would be an incorrect assumption.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DarkDedede

I fail to see how an example about an individual abusing the system for the team, relates to the system gauging the individuals performance.

Any solution that is implemented will be open to some sort of abuse. If RMT proves anything, it's that. However that shouldn't be a reason that a solution shouldn't be considered.

So far, you've either said why my solutions wouldn't work, or conveniently ignored them. Perhaps you have a solution, or perhaps something to add to mine?

---

A computer program determining whether or not someone "did well" at something outside of some arbitrary metric that's open to abuse would require an AI capable of subjective reasoning. So unless you're proposing that SE implement GLaDOS into the game to figure that out for us, I think I'll stick with human reasoning.