Ranged DPS dominating Slaughter Mode

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Some people in PvP attack the person wailing on their healer.

I realize most just put on the blinders and charge ahead, only to bitch when they don't get healed, but some people actually work as a team in PvP.

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So they run into a cluster to do that, even though they have Ranged who can handle the melee themselves?

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Originally Posted by Houston009

Here let me break it down how well their burst is, Ruin II (80pot) + Energy Drain (150pot) + Fester (300pot) + Enkindle (Garuda; 360pet pot) + Aetheric burst (170pot) + Wither (170pot) + energy Drain (150pot) + Ruin II (80pot) there is your burst. Only need the dots for the fester. The more you know. Luckily we can have 3 Aetherflow stacks on reserve whilst 3 stacks are already up, smh.

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What you are completely missing is that is not a burst. There are several builders and you can see them all coming. When you call something a "burst" spec in PvP it generally means an Assassin type melee spec or a Pyromancer/Direct Damage mage. A one trick pony that needs 2 buttons to play. A glass cannon. Not a Pet Spec that requires 3 GCDs worth of DoTs. In other words... cleanse.

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Originally Posted by Houston009

LOL, you are telling me to learn how to play yet you are dying to a melee LB 9 out of 10 times, I rarely ever die to a melee LB on my WHM (No VIT accessories/spec). How many times do I have to tell you that the caster adrenaline itself is fine, its STACKING them.

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Sorry I meant to say, if I die then 9 out of 10... Stacking cometeors requires everyone to be in a cluster. A couple of us are trying to explain to you how this works. How teams are baited into it. It's not so much coordination as it is beating up on a weaker backpedaling team. It generally happens when everyone stacks on top of the ramp right? In other words... spread out.

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What you are completely missing is that is not a burst. There are several builders and you can see them all coming. When you call something a "burst" spec in PvP it generally means an Assassin type melee spec or a Pyromancer/Direct Damage mage. A one trick pony that needs 2 buttons to play. A glass cannon. Not a Pet Spec that requires 3 GCDs worth of DoTs. In other words... cleanse.

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And yet again Reapply, its not hard. I never called it a burst spec, all I said is that they have a very strong burst.

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Sorry I meant to say, if I die then 9 out of 10... Stacking cometeors requires everyone to be in a cluster. A couple of us are trying to explain to you how this works. How teams are baited into it. It's not so much coordination as it is beating up on a weaker backpedaling team. It generally happens when everyone stacks on top of the ramp right? In other words... spread out.

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Someone getting Melee LB'd doesn't make everyone scramble together, rather it makes them spread from them hoping to cancel it with distance. The LB spam happens in the middle, only on the ramp after the first wave of players were wiped out trying to be in range to hit middle node. I have not gotten killed by the 5-6 cometeor spams on my alliance since the first time I got hit by it. I'm well aware that spreading helps alleviate the problem at hand, yet PMs are still getting 10+ points from one Cometeor spam. 8v8v8 is far more balanced than 24v24v24.

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Originally Posted by Houston009

So they run into a cluster to do that, even though they have Ranged who can handle the melee themselves?

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People see bad guy in their area, beating on their healer, they (melee and tanks) swarm to the bad guy. You can say "Nuh uh, that's stupid" all you want, it doesn't make it not true.

With Succor/Medica II/Apoc/E4E and maybe even a stoneskin, that monk that shoulder tackled in isn't going to get blown up by 4 ranged dps; the healer has a better shot of taking him down with a knockback.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

People see bad guy in their area, beating on their healer, they (melee and tanks) swarm to the bad guy. You can say "Nuh uh, that's stupid" all you want, it doesn't make it not true.

With Succor/Medica II/Apoc/E4E and maybe even a stoneskin, that monk that shoulder tackled in isn't going to get blown up by 4 ranged dps; the healer has a better shot of taking him down with a knockback.

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So the same incompetence that would have gotten killed by the Cometeor spams anyway, are getting baited to someone to get killed anyway?

Sure, he won't die to 4 bad ranged dps. And only 4 Range?

Yes, the incompetence will get more people killed. And yes, 4 ranged dps is on the high end of what you can expect to notice it as it happens, and they don't have stun.

Let's see. LB has charge time,animation lag, and lag after it ends. If the MNK was going to run in and LB someone, more likely than not they'll have Fetter Ward activated, so stun wouldn't work anyway.

So 4 ranged based off of awareness?

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Originally Posted by Red_Wolf

Did that a long time ago. 3.8k+ isn't laugh-able no matter how many times I survive it. It's still a Kill Caster button

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Now this I can actually sympathize with. When I'm on Bard I have about 4.4k HP and I just kinda laugh off melee limits because I just recouperate/second wind and I always bring HQ Mega-potions. I think SMN could use a pvp skill that's a drain that doubles as a second wind counterpart.

Also for the VIT thing, there's vit accessories like the Hellwolf Ring which has Det/Crit on it. There's no need to be wearing dud VIT accessories if you're going to wear them.

Edit: Actually they could just make it a 3rd trait for Wither to slot because it doesn't have the extra feature of knockback that Glory Slash does and as far as I know there's no reliable way to debuff in a specific order so it would give it a lot more utility outside of just another skill to burst with.

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Originally Posted by Potatoes

Also for the VIT thing, there's vit accessories like the Hellwolf Ring which has Det/Crit on it. There's no need to be wearing dud VIT accessories if you're going to wear them.

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Correct, I wear the "of Fending" WD accessories . There might be something better out there but this is what I have right now. I want Piety.

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Originally Posted by Red_Wolf

Correct, I wear the "of Fending" WD accessories . There might be something better out there but this is what I have right now. I want Piety.

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Piety isn't really needed on vit acc cuz... what's the reason tank have MP? To spam flash? tho healer won't burst all their MP to spam healing their allies since they can manage their MP much much better with their MP skill and pvp skill.

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Originally Posted by Houston009

Let's see. LB has charge time,animation lag, and lag after it ends. If the MNK was going to run in and LB someone, more likely than not they'll have Fetter Ward activated, so stun wouldn't work anyway.

So 4 ranged based off of awareness?

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You are completely missing the point here. He is a decoy.

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Originally Posted by Eul

Piety isn't really needed on vit acc cuz... what's the reason tank have MP? To spam flash? tho healer won't burst all their MP to spam healing their allies since they can manage their MP much much better with their MP skill and pvp skill.

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I understand why tank gear doesn't have Piety, but thanks. You can never have too much MP as a WHM in PvP.

After a lot of practice [which sucked], I've gotten to the point where I rarely ever die from Cometeor spam. This week I've only really gotten caught about a few times in my near fifty matches. Most of them because I was out of cooldowns. However, I wish I could say the same for most of my teammates. :( We -have- had a match or two where only a few people died thanks to spreading out which is nice. Mostly veterans in that match though.

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Originally Posted by Red_Wolf

I understand why tank gear doesn't have Piety, but thanks. You can never have too much MP as a WHM in PvP.

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A dead healer has no MP. So yes, if you are sacrificing vitality that would enable you to survive in order to stack Piety, yes, technically you can have too much MP. Same policy for Damage Dealers. Again, my benchmark for Mages having enough Vit is whether or not they can survive two cometeors or one Raw Destruction from full HP.

Lots of damage gets spread around in Slaughter Frontlines, and while it's fine to want more MP to heal with ,you do have plenty of MP recovery tools. The point is living long enough to which MP becomes an issue. If you don't, you're going to need MP recovery anyways if you get raised. So it's not so much having a lot of MP but having a lot of MP recovery. Stack up on those pots!

It's getting to the point where I'm watching the market for TP feathers gone cheap cause I'm surviving more as well.

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Originally Posted by zeopower6

After a lot of practice [which sucked], I've gotten to the point where I rarely ever die from Cometeor spam. This week I've only really gotten caught about a few times in my near fifty matches. Most of them because I was out of cooldowns. However, I wish I could say the same for most of my teammates. :( We -have- had a match or two where only a few people died thanks to spreading out which is nice. Mostly veterans in that match though.

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I'm getting to that point to. But as a tank, I'm typically forward enough to not be targeted by the volly. I've stunned a few Cometeors and Raw Destruction, though I take the most pride in using my Adrenline rush to make a Cometeor volly pretty weak.

I think I'm pretty much going to have to give up Summoner for Black Mage in Slaughter Mode because Summoner is just way too gimped vs Black Mage right now from a 'kill' perspective, and I don't see that changing. I know, I know, 'cry me a river' you might say if you're a Monk. But I'm not saying SMN doesn't have advantages over non-Cometor classes, but whereas physical DPS classes have skills that proc off low HP, and Black Mage gets instant Firestarter and Thundercloud procs, with Summoner's DOT based attacks and the basis for applying them under the effect of offensive buffs like Raging Strikes, and extending with Contagion while in their stronger form, and spreading with bane... well good luck with that once the other team's LB gauges start filling and the DOT's get removed from the party constantly. It can take like 5 or so casts to even get the three main DOT's up because of motion and autoattack interruption, and I'm not complaining about the fact we can't cast a ton of instant dot's, just saying it's too easy for the bard/healer LB to negate that for the entire party. Fester is useless without the three main DOT's up, and using Bane to spread to the party isn't that helpful if the hard/healer lb just removes them all anyway.

Also- my settings have it giving the status ailments I inflict dispay priority on target healh bar, but with the first node I usually just see two of my 3 DOT's, and recasting doesn't make a difference. Does anyone know if there's just an issue with them not displaying when too many are active, or do some truly get ignored?

it's a display error. when i played smn if i baned on a "2" dot node, it would spread 3.

also your reasoning is mostly why i don't play smn anymore for slaughter. i leveled blm to 50 actually just for it. i could still do really well on smn but i felt like the impact/kill ceiling was higher on blm.

if we were going back to secure or WD, though, i'd never pick smn over blm. but those days are long gone.

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Originally Posted by Buff_Archer

Also- my settings have it giving the status ailments I inflict dispay priority on target healh bar, but with the first node I usually just see two of my 3 DOT's, and recasting doesn't make a difference. Does anyone know if there's just an issue with them not displaying when too many are active, or do some truly get ignored?

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There is a hard limit to the number of DOTs that will display on a target's status bar. This maximum is checked BEFORE applying the setting that filters out the DOTs of others. So, if your DOT is applied past the display limit, you will never see it, even if you are set to only see your own effects. I find it kinda annoying, honestly - when I have that setting on as BLM, I sometimes cast Thunder on a target and the debuff icon doesn't show despite the target showing ZERO other debuffs on my screen.

I should post that to the bug forum at some point. I know exactly why it happens, but that doesn't make it any less of a gameplay-affecting bug.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

A dead healer has no MP. So yes, if you are sacrificing vitality that would enable you to survive in order to stack Piety, yes, technically you can have too much MP. Same policy for Damage Dealers. Again, my benchmark for Mages having enough Vit is whether or not they can survive two cometeors or one Raw Destruction from full HP.

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It sounds like people are taking bits and pieces of the Vitality accessory argument and going off on tangents. So here it goes again:

Healers need vitality accessories to avoid dying to the Melee LB Raw Destruction. It hits for 3.8k+. A typical PvE geared healer will enter the instance with ~3.5k health. So even with buffs and stoneskin an average melee player can essentially one shot you. You want at least 4k health to avoid better melee’s that will stun and do two hit combos to kill you. Having a tank in party for the extra vitality is also extremely helpful.

I think I speak for most healers when I say Cometeors are not a concern. They are a slow cast. They are telegraphed on the ground. And, they are almost always cast on one of 2 spots (middle of your side’s octagon or the platform at the top of the ramp). It is all about surviving the melee LB Raw Destruction. Dying to cometeors is usually a team spacing issue when your team is weak, broken and would probably die anyway.

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Lots of damage gets spread around in Slaughter Frontlines, and while it's fine to want more MP to heal with ,you do have plenty of MP recovery tools. The point is living long enough to which MP becomes an issue. If you don't, you're going to need MP recovery anyways if you get raised. So it's not so much having a lot of MP but having a lot of MP recovery. Stack up on those pots!

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WHM’s get one extra MP recovery tool in PvP for a grand total of two. Even Mana Surge is pretty bad until you enhance it with PvP experience. Mega-Ether pots give 270 MP and 350 MP (HQ) with about a 4m cooldown. So you get one extra Cure II or Medica every 4 minutes… yeay. Not to mention at 1k gil a piece on my server those Mega Ethers can add up.

I can’t speak for SCH, but playing WHM is all about MP management. In a PvE scripted encounter you learn when to time heals and shroud. You know when you need burst heals (and you know who the weak links are in your static ;) ). In PvP, I don’t have that luxury. I can’t keep going for some optimal MP management. If I have to spam Medica three times to get my team back up after a multi-stack of cometeor, then I’m hurting for a while. This isn’t a Dev created encounter to space the needed burst healing every few minutes. The other teams aren’t going to give me a chance to recoup. I am completely reliant on my team to not to stand in stupid, over-extend, and retreat when focused. You could argue my MP management is probably the best indicator of how strong the alliance is as a whole.

I haven’t had more than one death in a FL in a while (outside of one horrible showing in a 24 man two nights ago, ugh). Honestly, I usually don’t die at all since I am somewhat capable, fear melee like the plague, and I don’t stack dead center of my side. So I “live long enough” for MP to become a factor in every single match. The only times I don’t feel MP starvation in a match are when I have a really good SCH in my party.

Stacking Piety increases my MP pool thus increasing the tick of MP recovery. So I’ll take every point of it I can and cry for more.

It doesn’t sound like you completely disagree with me, but you’re basically saying my two biggest concerns (surviving the melee kill caster button & MP) are not a big deal. I am really sacrificing my MP to survive one stinking ability that every melee player gets and is the definition of OP. So in that sense you are wrong. They are a very big deal to me.

Also excited to hear there are two less SMN's spreading DoT's and breaking out all those CC'd enemies. woot.

They should probably add a bit of piety onto all PvP fending accessories much like how dexterity was added to all pre-120 MNK gear. It only makes sense since most PvP healers use those in PvP, so why not? I mean I use the Garuda ring too but that doesn't need to be changed.

Oh, and about the MP thing... if we have any tanks or melee at all, I kiss my MP goodbye in the first part of the match, lol.

A lot of Confirmation Bias in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Red_Wolf

Also excited to hear there are two less SMN's spreading DoT's and breaking out all those CC'd enemies. woot.

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Bane doesn't break CC...

Also, the main issue with caster LB is that it increases incredibly fast for each person they assist/kill. Just remove LB bar increase for killing opponent and I think it'll be a lot more balanced.