An open discsusion on the consequences of death

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Originally Posted by Alise

Normal return = cost 1[/COLOR]
Death return = cost 2 (so people will scare when they die. If he always stays at 0 anima, then he will never be able to teleport anywhere)
Teleport cost 3-6.

this will also fix the problem of trying to die to warp, because die cost more anima!

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or this....

Gear being destroyed at 0% probably wouldnt take many items out of the economy because people rarely ever let their gear hit 0% in a system like that.

it does provide a looming threat and want to survive though.

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Originally Posted by Nephera

Gear being destroyed at 0% probably wouldnt take many items out of the economy because people rarely ever let their gear hit 0% in a system like that.

it does provide a looming threat and want to survive though.

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But SOME will come out. Like people said with the gil sink, every little bit helps.

The whole point of this isn't what is convenient or what is liked, it's about what is necessary. And honestly from reading most of the pages here, no one is ready for any of that, let alone a challenge. You should be really afraid of dying, not inconvenienced by it. No one should feel invincible in an MMO. That's where we are now. We are all nearly immortal killing machines. It's just a slight inconvenience. No one will stop running to their deaths unless some radical changes are done.

Do I want to have destroyed gear, lost sp, no anima, longer penalties or anything else mentioned here? Hell no! But it's like Choc pointed out "Honestly I dont see any risk in dying currently without losing something valuable". It's all about a risk/gain system. Of course we won't pick something that's beneficial for us in the long run, that's why no one wants a steep penalty. Unjust or unfair or cheap, something needs to be put in place. I hate seeing people run into NMs double weakened and seeing dead bodies litter the ground. Like Yoshi-P said, that's not very heroic.

I generally agree with everyone that it doesn't feel like there's any reason not to die, however if the penalty became too harsh, wouldn't that discourage people from trying more stars on their levequests? (Not that there seems to be a huge reason to do that as it stands anyhow.....)

With regards to return becoming free is that really needed? Travel is already pretty easy in the game, feels less epic(and/or difficult) than in XI.

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And honestly from reading most of the pages here, no one is ready for any amount of challenge.

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Because only with a DP can the content be challenging.

Stupidity runs rampart today.

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Originally Posted by JayvirDeforte

I still think that just adding in destroyed gear at 0% and boosting gear damage on death would be good in a way. If every death equaled a 10-20% durability loss on gear, and said gear could be destroyed if reaching 0, that's deterrant in itself to make sure you don't die. Could you imagine losing a Mosshorn Scalemail +3 because you decided to die too many times? I would think twice. Not to mention that could get rid of a lot of surplus items in the economy if they were all breaking

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^ This, and suddenly Crafters have a place in end-game content. Party wiping to much? About to loose your gear? Np... We have an ARM standing by.

Anyone who wants the death exp loss a mage? I am not one but i know a few who would be level 10 again real quick because of the hate they pull when curing, enfeebling, buffs etc >.<

Yoshi, your idea seems a little weak, we need a harsher death penalty. IMO.

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Originally Posted by Jibe

Yoshi, your idea seems a little weak, we need a harsher death penalty. IMO.

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As a mage I've seen a lot of pulls during the buffs. And trust me, a Stoneskin pulls aggro. A lot.

If you really feel like a harsher penalty is needed, take it upon yourself to punch yourself in the crotch. If you die multiple times punch your an additional time until you are finally out of a weakened state...

SP/XP loss is not the way to go. There are to many variables beyond a players control. I don't feel like losing sp/xp/having gear destroyed because moron tank is not doing his job, or the healer was picking his nose, or the server gets a lag spike, or my isp has a connection issue, or some scumbag thinks its great to pull extra mobs and take off, or being trained which I have been seeing more often recently as well as the fact that there are R60+ mobs in STARTER FRIGGIN AREAS that one shot ANYONE on game.

Simply make it so that when you die you cannot attack, period... until a 5 minute rez timer goes down. Make it so that Raise I cuts it down by a minute, raise II in half and raise III cuts it out completely. Dying multiple times while in weakened state increases the no attack timer by 1 min each time you die.

Make it so that if you die and need to return it is still 0 anima, but instead of returning to your home point it returns you to the CLOSEST crystal. Most people who blood port plan that head of time, they do it to traverse great distances fast, not to be sent back to the nearest camp.

I dont have a problem with the status down effect once they fix the stats on the game first.

I don't think EXP/SP Penalty is going to plant fear into players about dieing. It's more of an inconvenience and an annoyance than anything else. Besides, next to the EXP fatigue, I really don't want to lose any more exp. It's not going to make me afraid of death, it's going to frustrate me with the game.

Death penalty might make things exicting in the beginning, but if the game will be any more party/group based it will create much hate and anger. What will happen is normal exp/sp groups might wipe for any number of reasons (Vesper #370 has a good list :P ) and because of someone else's mistake I will have to suffer penalties. I don't think that's really fair, frightening, exciting or challenging at all.

Then once you get to end game, nobody will care regardless of the EXP/SP penalty. When I played FFXI I didn't care one bit weather I was wiped 20 times in dynamis and lost exp. It was nothing but inconvenient. I had gotten used to it and it no longer was some weird 'oh no I'm scared I don't want to die cause I might lose exp delevel and be unable to use my chocobo.'

If you want a more challenging game, this is not the way. You have to demand more content, and challenging enemies and story lines and things to do. Not to be punished when you die. FFXIV was designed for more casual gamers, so I sure hope they will not create needless timesinks and grief players for unevitable things like being defeated in game.

Could always make it so if you die 10 times, your character gets deleted and you have to start all over again. Great time sink, awesome for economy... Very frightening.

In all seriousness though a lot of people in support of a feature like this come from FFXI, so I just want to say if you want super hard core, FFXI still stands after almost a decade.

If you want more casual, thats why SE made a new game = FFXIV

IMO, as above says, with already having a fatigue system and adding a XP/SP penalty, i'm definetely going to find more frustration on the game more than im enjoying it. I already am frustrating because the lack of other choice to level up in this game.

Although i'm not particulary excited about Yoshi's ideas, this is better than 0 penalty as we got now.
I don't agree with the gil idea, there is lots and tons of money in the game and it would't be a penalty to give 10k or something to an npc to reduce damage and status.
The loss of SP would be the best choice... but if you don't want to turn it into XI'ish think of something like after you die 10 times you would need to do a major mission :)

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Originally Posted by JayvirDeforte

But SOME will come out. Like people said with the gil sink, every little bit helps.

The whole point of this isn't what is convenient or what is liked, it's about what is necessary. And honestly from reading most of the pages here, no one is ready for any of that, let alone a challenge. You should be really afraid of dying, not inconvenienced by it. No one should feel invincible in an MMO. That's where we are now. We are all nearly immortal killing machines. It's just a slight inconvenience. No one will stop running to their deaths unless some radical changes are done.

Do I want to have destroyed gear, lost sp, no anima, longer penalties or anything else mentioned here? Hell no! But it's like Choc pointed out "Honestly I dont see any risk in dying currently without losing something valuable". It's all about a risk/gain system. Of course we won't pick something that's beneficial for us in the long run, that's why no one wants a steep penalty. Unjust or unfair or cheap, something needs to be put in place. I hate seeing people run into NMs double weakened and seeing dead bodies litter the ground. Like Yoshi-P said, that's not very heroic.

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Oh i know i'm just saying most people are more attentive than that.

Under existing cripple battle system, indistinct job skills & frustrated STR/DEX/VIT/INT/PIE,
I think adding death penalty do not provide any fun to the player.

Yoshida, Please fix the first priority things please !

I think Yoshi-P's penalties are good, actually.

But in my opinion, the return option should be removed and upon death, you'd be returned to the nearest crystal.

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Please discuss the above points and any comments such as the below would be really helpful

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If a population of players are lacking a sense of danger and thrill, I can't help but feel this is far better remedied by the means of introducing new challanging content of variying degrees of difficulty. Rather than introducing a mechanic which sole purpose is to annoy and frustrate the entire playerbase.

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Originally Posted by Kio

If a population of players are lacking a sense of danger and thrill, I can't help but feel this is far better remedied by the means of introducing new challanging content of variying degrees of difficulty. Rather than introducing a mechanic which sole purpose is to annoy and frustrate the entire playerbase.

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Cheers

That's what I been trying to say ^^

I would like to see gear damage removed from the game if this means the trade off is that we must have exp loss then so be it even though i prefer no exp loss.
The weak state is something im not a fan of , and the idea of paying an npc to remove weak state is an ok idea.
Remove gear damage and weak state and put in exp loss , i think this be better even though i hate exp loss.

Also want make a point the way the battle system is atm , i die alot in game not because i want to die but because im spamming actions and targeting feels off , i go to run away because i no chance beat the monster because the delay on actions and end up die alot in game atm , the battle system needs to change at same time they put in new death system.

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Originally Posted by Hvinire

Hey all,

Hvinire here with an update from Yoshida on this very topic. Sorry for the delay in responding but please check out the comment that Yoshi-P himself made regarding the community concerns over the current death penalty in Eorzea.



There you have it, now back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

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That's a good death penalty as it would give more sense about having raise, and I'm still on my judgement about anyone asking for SP penalty. Plus, let's not forget that if you die more than 2 times while still weak, your char is as good as dead as the game currently disables all abilities until the death penalty timer is down.

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Of course we plan to add a 10-20 minute recast timer, but by making the return cost 0:

(I) It eliminates the need to death warp in order to conserve anima

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Not sure if it has been correctly translated and/or if I well understood.

In my case, I mostly use return when returning local leves, so if for some reason the timer is still running/up when I need to return, I would death warp. But then, I am not against a timer because reducing the cost of return to 0 on a instant timer would make some idiots spam return endlessly and add more stress to the servers. Pretty much like some jump endlessly in town in some other game.


Thank you for not adding something smarter than a simple SP/EXP penalty upon death.

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Originally Posted by Vesper

If you really feel like a harsher penalty is needed, take it upon yourself to punch yourself in the crotch. If you die multiple times punch your an additional time until you are finally out of a weakened state...

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I completely agree with you. I really really do not enjoy losing exp due to inept players or other things that are out of my control. I don't mind being frustrated when playing a game. Like if I'm fighting a tough monster, crafting things higher than my level, exploring places that I have no business being in, and other things like that. Not when one or more party members don't know or care about how they are playing. I don't need FFXI-esque death penalty to have a great fear of dying. I hate dying, I like the death penalty just how it is, to be honest. I don't need to lose xp/sp to make me not want to die.

I don't want to go back to the days when most people were to scared to do much of anything. I really get tired of seeing the tank being the first one to run away when a fight goes wrong. Tired of people not wanting to take risks and fight that really tough monster. People didn't want to take risks on FFXI because of the death penalty. If I wanted all of that, I would be playing FFXI right now. I played it for a few years, it is time to move on. Games evolve, just like everything else in life, it is natural. Loosing the experience that you have gained from previous fights isn't very realistic. You don't lose your experience in real life, why should we have to do it in a game?

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Originally Posted by PandaTaru

That's a good death penalty as it would give more sense about having raise, and I'm still on my judgement about anyone asking for SP penalty. Plus, let's not forget that if you die more than 2 times while still weak, your char is as good as dead as the game currently disables all abilities until the death penalty timer is down.

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Word

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Originally Posted by PandaTaru

Not sure if it has been correctly translated and/or if I well understood.

In my case, I mostly use return when returning local leves, so if for some reason the timer is still running/up when I need to return, I would death warp.

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Originally Posted by PandaTaru

But then, I am not against a timer because reducing the cost of return to 0 on a instant timer would make some idiots spam return endlessly and add more stress to the servers.

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I..what.. when has this ever happened?

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Originally Posted by PandaTaru

Pretty much like some jump endlessly in town in some other game.

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Oh you're joking, my bad.

Cool Yoshi great ideas with the death penalty. My favorite part was the no xp/sp loss being implemented. I'm cool with any penalty really besides that. Xp/sp loss only creates a bunch of scared paranoid players and doesn't attract many casuals either.

It's cool to know our discussions are getting to Yoshi-P. :D

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Originally Posted by Nephera

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I..what.. when has this ever happened?




Oh you're joking, my bad.

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I'm not joking and it has never/not happened (yet); but then, if you knew people better, you'd know that it is something that will/might happen. Want a good example? Think belgianROFL and also that he is not an exception.

A 5 minutes timer would be good enough.

Leaving aside the penalty discussion for a minute, Yoshi's mention of tiered raises (regardless of how they differ) is good news because it would bring a normal Raise I back into the lower caster levels where there should be one. R38 was a little late for getting a raise (the only raise).

I think a lower level raise has been long overdue, so I'm glad that they're addressing that.

In my opinion it doesn't actually feel like he's adding a death penalty though, as much as he's adding a mechanic to remove the one we already have (perfect raise).

So...I guess I'm not sure that what he's proposing will actually have any effect.

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Originally Posted by Nephera

the mob still gets its aoe off just as it dies, obliterating 9-10 people and then...

we laughed and said "thats why you attack that mob first", no screaming matches about "OH THANKS JACKHOLE NOW I LOST AN HOURS WORTH OF WORK BECAUSE OF YOU" etc etc.

so yeah I kind of agree, death should be a set back of course, but not one that'll ruin your night.

Armor damage is harsher than what we have now but its not likely to ruin someone's day in one wipe (several successive ones maybe).

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This. I truly don't understand why some would want a game to be punishing you. Games are meant to be fun.

Dying by itself is already undesirable to me. If I die, it means I lost my challenge.

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Originally Posted by SirEdeonX

I think Yoshi-P's penalties are good, actually.

But in my opinion, the return option should be removed and upon death, you'd be returned to the nearest crystal.

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I think that's a great idea. :)

I think that is a good start. But the only way this will work is if I can reraise.... Atm it is horrible to be a caster with an ally who hasn't ranked up CON/THM. I can raise them but they can't raise me! Why would I be at rank 50 on both CON and THM and still not know how to raise myself if I can raise others? Thanks. I think adding a gil requirement to death is a bad idea. Adding a debuff beyond weakness like "attack down" if you are a dow or "magic potency down" if you are a dom is a good idea if it doesn't last too long. Maybe 5 minutes (or 2 and a half minutes after weakness wears off) of a total duration of this special debuff. I think currently nobody is actively trying to die but at the same time, nobody is actively trying not to die.

Equipment damage as a penalty is pretty weak.
SP penalty is the only real way to impose any sort of fear of death.
Right now, when my friend or I die while playing together, we laugh and joke about it. It's really quite pathetic.

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•Not currently planning on having a loss of SP/XP at this point in time

Please discuss the above points and any comments such as the below would be really helpful:

•[SIZE="5"]This penalty is weak![/SIZE]
•This is perfect!
•[SIZE="5"]Do something else![/SIZE]

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Yes to SP/XP loss. Yoshi-P propsed penalty is weak! Do something else! (SP/XP loss)

Also add char decapitation, like when you get hurt by monsters you lose arm/legs/head and your gear is lost forever. same thing for weapons. also they should make it so when you lose a part of your body, you cannot play the game at all for a certain period of time like a week/month until some alchemist grew a new arm or cloned your body and switched your soul from your old body to your new body. Also, there should be an anima reset to 0 every time you die.

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Originally Posted by Luluna

Anyone who wants the death exp loss a mage? I am not one but i know a few who would be level 10 again real quick because of the hate they pull when curing, enfeebling, buffs etc >.<

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You must have really, really bad tanks :D

Anyway, I'm seriously amazed by the fact that some people really think that a mere timesink like experience-based penalty will instill "fear" of death in the hearts of people. Might work one or two times, then it becomes routine like everything else.

Unless you lose something permanently (which is obviously not practical nor acceptable in this kind of environment), there's nothing that does that. Death has long been a negligible element in videogames, and there's nothing wrong with it.

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Originally Posted by Vesper

If you really feel like a harsher penalty is needed, take it upon yourself to punch yourself in the crotch. If you die multiple times punch your an additional time until you are finally out of a weakened state...

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I strongly support this solution.
Too many people would like to impose fun-less time sinks on everyone in the name of their hardcore nostalgia.

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Originally Posted by PandaTaru

Also add char decapitation, like when you get hurt by monsters you lose arm/legs/head and your gear is lost forever. same thing for weapons. also they should make it so when you lose a part of your body, you cannot play the game at all for a certain period of time like a week/month until some alchemist grew a new arm or cloned your body and switched your soul from your old body to your new body. Also, there should be an anima reset to 0 every time you die.

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Aaaaah now you're exaggerating. Fingers and toes and a flogging should be sufficient. :)

@ Abriael at the moment our group does not have a tank, although i do know that hate is still a issue i am not a mage myself but have seen crazy hate control with mobs even with a tank.

I don't really understand why there's such a huge debate over death penalties, many of the other MMORPGs out there are plenty successful without putting much thought into death. In fact, the most successful MMO out there (WoW) barely has a death penalty at all. Now, I'm not one to try and push WoW topics as the "right thing to do" but I think the FFXIV development team have bigger things to worry about right now?

As for my opinion, I think the current system is fine. When I die, I lose time, and my time is very valuable to me (maybe not as valuable to others). Yoshi-P's suggestions are fine though, too. I worry for a game that lacks content/progression, storytelling, quests, and class uniqueness when the community (and devs) prioritize something as silly as death penalty.

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Originally Posted by Vesper

If you really feel like a harsher penalty is needed, take it upon yourself to punch yourself in the crotch. If you die multiple times punch your an additional time until you are finally out of a weakened state...

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This is full of win lmao.

Player1: What happened to *insert name here*?

Player2: O he's a super hardcore player and he just died 3 times.

Player1: So why is he not moving?

Player2: He puched himself in the nuts constantly so now hes unconscious.

Player1: O so he's an idiot.

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Originally Posted by Ava

I don't really understand why there's such a huge debate over death penalties, many of the other MMORPGs out there are plenty successful without putting much thought into death. In fact, the most successful MMO out there (WoW) barely has a death penalty at all. Now, I'm not one to try and push WoW topics as the "right thing to do" but I think the FFXIV development team have bigger things to worry about right now?

As for my opinion, I think the current system is fine. When I die, I lose time, and my time is very valuable to me (maybe not as valuable to others). Yoshi-P's suggestions are fine though, too. I worry for a game that lacks content/progression, storytelling, quests, and class uniqueness when the community (and devs) prioritize something as silly as death penalty.

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To me sometimes it sounds like some people want the game to fail miserably by adding more unneeded restrictions into it. Most of the posts I read about SP/EXP penalty don't have a real argument in them.
If they wanted more challenge, just ask for more challenging mobs. Death penalty doesn't add anything to the challenge, it just add annoyance during a challenging fight.

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Originally Posted by Luluna

@ Abriael at the moment our group does not have a tank, although i do know that hate is still a issue i am not a mage myself but have seen crazy hate control with mobs even with a tank.

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Not sure about others, but personally I find hate management quite doable, while challenging (and I do think a challenge is a good thing). Probably you had experiences with pretty bad tanks.

I've actually observed quite a few other gladiators "at work" though (mostly the "I'm higher level! I'll tank!" type),and I did notice that many can't manage their stamina, wasting it by spamming attacks and then remaining without when they need a taunt/provoke. Some others fire all their taunts in a row at the beginning of the fight, weakening their long-run aggro. The problem here is that many, many players still didn't learn how to tank.

But yeah, you do need a tank to begin with :D

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Originally Posted by Luluna

Anyone who wants the death exp loss a mage? I am not one but i know a few who would be level 10 again real quick because of the hate they pull when curing, enfeebling, buffs etc >.<

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Yes I am, I dont exactly "want" an sp loss upon death change, but I wouldnt mind it. I just want there to be some sort of challenge/risk/danger involved in this game.