Real Money to Get In-Game Currency: Eternal Bond Edition

^per the devs, the bracelets were never intended to be sold for gil. It was just an unfortunate side effect with making the bracelets tradeable.

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Originally Posted by tocsin

melded combat gear bought instead of earned = direct DISadvantage.

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Sure if you magically get raid gear in your lap. However, you require a certain minimum stat pool to tackle Coil 3, so while others have to farm Coil2 or spend weeks getting piece by piece of the poetics grind, you can just buy and meld some crafted gear that can be equal to or better than Coil 2 items.

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Originally Posted by tocsin

melded crafting gear bought instad of earned = direct DISadvantage.

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Wat. http://www.ffxivguild.com/ff14-arr-d...materia-melds/

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Originally Posted by tocsin

melded gathering gear bought instead of earned = neutral, the non main hand gear is the smallest part of the grind anyways.

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Wat. http://www.ffxivguild.com/ff14-arr-d...materia-melds/

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Originally Posted by tocsin

housing = out of range of bracelet sales (lol 1 mil per bracelet. lets pay 20*30=600 dollars for a large house.)

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And small houses? Medium houses? People are going after those too grinding and selling, trying to make cash. Here comes you with your fancy credit card, ready to skip the line.

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Originally Posted by tocsin

materials = at the same time crunch as regular players. material costs are horrible anyways, most tiered crafted items are net loss anyways.

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Oh? Same time crunch? The players farming and playing the market have spent just as much time as you giving your credit card to SE and putting up a PF? Yeah, no advantage there.

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Originally Posted by tocsin

minions = LOL who cares, zero gameplay benefit, I don't even see them.

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Just cause you don't care about them, doesn't mean there aren't players who do spend their time grinding dungeons and/or saving up money to buy em (I know two in my FC). Stop being selfish.

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Originally Posted by tocsin

relic = specifically designed so gil cannot buy even 10% of it. its time gated, not gil-gated.

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Yeah, Savage Might/Aim IV isn't a gil grind... oh wait, they cost 500K on my server and from what I hear, are expensive on others. Let me guess, "But you don't have to get them", oh but you with your credit card should get an advantage right?

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Originally Posted by tocsin

I can name 5 subscription based games with pure P2P (pay to progress) cash shops that have grown and prospered since adding the cash shop.

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How many of those were free to play games or had complex economies that could sustain such programs? Also changing the word to something no one uses (or heard of?) doesn't make it any less P2W.

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Originally Posted by TurnBased

They did mention that if this continues to be a problem and if topics on the matter continue then they will take action. I'm just fulfilling the second part.

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You know they can go in game and observer the problem, right? So if they're seeing otherwise in game, no changes will be needed. So clearly the huge problem you speak of, isn't there...

Whether it's a problem or not is their call. In the meantime, players who are concerned about this unfortunate side effect need to continue being vocal about it.

Personally, I think they need to rollback any accounts that made these transactions but that would mean that some marriages would need to be annulled so I don't see that happening.

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Originally Posted by Magis

snip...

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ugh, I don't care enough about this topic to take the time to separate all those into individual quotes, especially since I'm playing the game in the other window.

even though I said all of these before, ill reiterate here. this will be the last time.

1. combat gear - buying fully melded 1. lets people know you RMT, and will likely kick (I have seen it), or assume you are a VERY skilled player and attempt more than you can handle (aka full dungeon speedrun pulls). this puts you at a disadvantage to those who actually put in the work.

2. crafting gear - you bought all the best items. okay, now try to get the mastercraft books, only from a macro, because you don't know how crafting actually works (because you didn't earn it.) oh, you just got 20% hq rate? yep, you suck.

3. Gathering gear - oh, you just got a full set of gear? oh, you still need to spend days grinding 1 star token nodes, then 2 star token nodes.

4. housing - by now, either all the small and medium houses are gone, or there is enough supply that it makes no difference anyways. and unless you are on the same server as I am (where I just saw someone selling a platinum bracelet in pf for 250k) the small amount you get (1 mil is nothing lol) wont buy that.

5. materials - unless you are botting, as well as RMT (which isn't that far fetched) you are still playing the same market as regular crafters, and most of us crafters have more money than you will ever earn with those bracelets.

6. Minions - vanity. Yes, its endgame for some people, but they already confirmed that vanity would be the territory of the cash shop. this gives people an ability to get it for gil too. positive for them, in my book.

7. relic - by the time you go through entire atma farming, animus book farming, and alexandrite farming, if you don't have a couple mil saved up for your materia, you did something wrong.

8. subscription based games-
EVE
Wildstar
World of Warcraft
Ultima Online
Everquest

Now, I don't want to waste any more of my post limit on this nonsense, so please refer back to this post for my responses.

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Originally Posted by TurnBased

4. I will concede, I am slowly beginning to begrudgingly accept the Cash Shop as a necessary evil. I believe the P2W aspect still needs to go though.

Even if the bracelets cost 150k that person still made 150k more than the person who does not sell bracelets. An advantage is an advantage no matter how small.

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I agree, it is an advantage. however, if that 150k (miniscule) advantage means more money for SE to continue adding and supporting the game that we all play, I'm 100% for them getting that advantage.

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Originally Posted by Magis

snip...

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Even though I want to make a new post for these, ill refrain.

I'm not saying there isn't an advantage in any way. its exactly what I said, P4P. but it isn't this huge advantage that you are all making it out to be.

Also, I still play UO occasionally. They did housing better than any MMO since. Just like everquest did NPC questing better than any MMO since.

1. On gear. Whether you are able to effectively use the gear or not, you were still able to acquire it much faster than other players. In an F2P game, god like items are sold in the cash shop but players often still need to know builds+strategies.

2. Housing. And if there is like one house left, I would rather it went to the player who acquired the gil legitimately.

3. Relic - Bad RNG can often make the cost of Novus skyrocket. Players often have to make do with spiritbonding or some other money making method.

4. I will concede, I am slowly beginning to begrudgingly accept the Cash Shop as a necessary evil. It's just what keeps the game at an 8/10 instead of the 10/10 that the game used to be pre-Cash Shop. I believe the P2W aspect still needs to go though.

Even if the bracelets cost 150k that person still made 150k more than the person who does not sell bracelets. An advantage is an advantage no matter how small.

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Originally Posted by tocsin

ugh, I don't care enough about this topic to take the time to separate all those into individual quotes, especially since I'm playing the game in the other window.

even though I said all of these before, ill reiterate here. this will be the last time.

1. combat gear - buying fully melded 1. lets people know you RMT, and will likely kick (I have seen it), or assume you are a VERY skilled player and attempt more than you can handle (aka full dungeon speedrun pulls). this puts you at a disadvantage to those who actually put in the work.

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Unless you are already in a static and everyone trusts each other. You aren't really at a disadvantage, rather at the same position of a newbie (assuming again you never did raiding or are not in a static already) but wait, you got the gear to overcompensate giving you an advantage over Mr. Newbie.

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Originally Posted by tocsin

2. crafting gear - you bought all the best items. okay, now try to get the mastercraft books, only from a macro, because you don't know how crafting actually works (because you didn't earn it.) oh, you just got 20% hq rate? yep, you suck.

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Crafting isn't some complex activity. And you are avoiding the point, getting the materia and gear upfront is a big part of the process. Funny thing, since you can just "buy materials", you don't even have to care if you blow up the craft, just keep buying more!

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Originally Posted by tocsin

3. Gathering gear - oh, you just got a full set of gear? oh, you still need to spend days grinding 1 star token nodes, then 2 star token nodes.

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So does everyone else, but while people had to grind and farm to even get to that stage, you get to skip all that? Just because you have to still do part of the grind, doesn't mean you didn't get an advantage for the rest of it.

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Originally Posted by tocsin

4. housing - by now, either all the small and medium houses are gone, or there is enough supply that it makes no difference anyways. and unless you are on the same server as I am (where I just saw someone selling a platinum bracelet in pf for 250k) the small amount you get (1 mil is nothing lol) wont buy that.

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That doesn't disprove you are getting an advantage. Are you going to make excuses or point out where you aren't getting an advantage? Houses are in circulation all the time with land trades, and with the new districts there are still some open in not so wanted locations like The Goblet.

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Originally Posted by tocsin

5. materials - unless you are botting, as well as RMT (which isn't that far fetched) you are still playing the same market as regular crafters, and most of us crafters have more money than you will ever earn with those bracelets.

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And how did they get that money? By farming, by selling crafts, by playing the market. They had to put something in to get something out of it. You are getting an advantage by not playing the game and paying your way to the top. Those people with large amounts of cash didn't just happen to have it fall in their lap.

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Originally Posted by tocsin

6. Minions - vanity. Yes, its endgame for some people, but they already confirmed that vanity would be the territory of the cash shop. this gives people an ability to get it for gil too. positive for them, in my book.

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Two different issues. One is vanity locked in the cashshop, the other is accessible by all players, but some players who pay real cash can get to them easier than those who have to grind the money or the drop rng. Cause you know... an advantage.

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Originally Posted by tocsin

7. relic - by the time you go through entire atma farming, animus book farming, and alexandrite farming, if you don't have a couple mil saved up for your materia, you did something wrong.

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First, cool a couple mil get's you 4/15 of the materia barring you didn't spend it on any of the above things or other materia. Second, you still didn't say how this wasn't an advantage, just avoided answering it.

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Originally Posted by tocsin

8. subscription based games-

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EVE - Complex Economy that is regulated by economists and a council of players. The game's main focus and pull IS the economy.
Wildstar - Failed MMO that is pretty much dead, so much for prospering.
World of Warcraft - A MMO that got most of it's subs pre-cashshop and has been losing subs ever since. Dunno how the cash shop made it prosper.
Ultima Online - Uh... what? Does this MMO still even have any subscribers that you would consider "alive" pre-WoW? Dunno enough about this MMO to say anything.
Everquest - Reading it up, seems to have got one way past it's life time in 2008. Anyway, looking at MMOCharts, the game snuffed out in 06/07 and kept falling even past 08 so dunno where this prospering is coming from.

So I guess one of those "prospered", and maybe two if I take your word for it with Ultima. So much for five MMOs, the last two showed how much you are grasping at straws lol.

So basically, a bunch of excuses or off topic responses without saying HOW you are not at a advantage.

http://i.imgur.com/DKJhx9l.gif

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Originally Posted by dice137

http://i.imgur.com/DKJhx9l.gif

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This is fun :D sadly I have to go to sleep since it's 2:30 here, can't wait to hear his/her response!

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Originally Posted by dice137

http://i.imgur.com/DKJhx9l.gif

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This is worth the extra post. Upvote this, because this is in fact fun.

So, with that, and look upwards for my responses please, let me pose a question. for the amount of money they would have to pay for this advantage (assuming 1 mil or less for the bracelets), and assuming this goes towards keeping ffxiv alive, which was mentioned by Yoshi during the EU Fanfest, is the advantage really worth it? if someone pays for 500 mil (100 mil for each set of win gear plus 100 mil for materia plus 100 mil for housing, materials, minions, and such) to "win" all these things (keep in mind, that is Ten Thousand Dollars USD (or, subs for a year for 84 people)), are they worth enough to the continued running of the game that they would deserve it?
Also, you cannot use the answer "on principal", or "the morals of it". An MMO is a business, morals and principals have no dominion here.

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Originally Posted by Magis

....you are saying that SE endorsed RMT isn't P2W

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There isn't an argument to begin with nor even a debate. Anti cash-shop players had their minds set on the false fact that SE endorses RMT for P2W (since I am arguing that SE do not condone RMT item being traded for gils). These people aren't pointing their pitchforks at players who abuses this feature but instead are pointing their pitchforks at SE, why?

My reasoning is: This Eternal Bond for gils isn't Pay-2-Win. What they are doing here is piggybacking on the latest issue which is players selling bands for gils (similar to player selling carries for gils, which both gives advantage to the seller in terms of gils) in hopes to exaggerate the issue (calling it OMG SE endorsing Pay-2-Win) to call for an abolishment of cash shop. However, ultimately all I can read from their posts is "I want the cash shop items for free because I paid for subscription". Basically, entitlement.

Personally, I'm starting to accept the cash shop as a necessary evil. It just makes an otherwise perfect game flawed. But the tradeable bracelets as the devs have acknowledged urgently need to be patched. Selling carries is ok as all transactions are done in-game.

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Originally Posted by TurnBased

Personally, I'm starting to accept the cash shop as a necessary evil. It just makes an otherwise perfect game flawed. But the tradeable bracelets as the devs have acknowledged urgently need to be patched. Selling carries is ok as all transactions are done in-game.

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Yes, I do agree with you that SE needs to patch the tradable bracelet. I feel sorry for people who might sincerely want to gift it to their partners but this bracelet topic is getting out of hand. Exaggerated posts of SE endorsing Pay-2-Win are a good example. Pitchforks should be pointed to the players selling and buying them.

there is an easy fix for that. Just paypal your partner the 10 bucks if you want to gift it to them

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Originally Posted by TurnBased

Personally, I'm starting to accept the cash shop as a necessary evil. It just makes an otherwise perfect game flawed. But the tradeable bracelets as the devs have acknowledged urgently need to be patched. Selling carries is ok as all transactions are done in-game.

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Why? Because you run the risk of not being one of the best on your server? Someone with more real life money than time might come close to being equal to or better than your i115ish WHM? Just guessing, didn't bother calculating.

Why is it okay to sell exclusive content as long as it doesn't interfere with YOUR way of enjoying the game? Do you think everyone cares about dps, clears, or iLvl? You keep telling people to be vocal and you keep posting your complaints, repeatedly, and I'm here to tell you, repeatedly, I'm -happy- the cash shop has items that can be traded for gil. I hope everything on the cash shop becomes tradable, and everything in the future as well.

Hardcore players aren't the only ones in this game, in fact, I'm pretty sure they're the minority. A lot of us would rather have our minions to show off, our cute outfits, our adorable emotes, and just talk and have fun. Well, your complaint about people having access to YOUR content with money is valid, but the cash shop gives people EXCLUSIVE access to MY content, too. Just imagine how you would feel if the cash shop had untradeable/unique i130 gear with different stats than the current but looked the same, then you will know how a lot of casuals feel about the initial cash shop items.

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Originally Posted by tocsin

This is worth the extra post. Upvote this, because this is in fact fun.

So, with that, and look upwards for my responses please, let me pose a question. for the amount of money they would have to pay for this advantage (assuming 1 mil or less for the bracelets), and assuming this goes towards keeping ffxiv alive, which was mentioned by Yoshi during the EU Fanfest, is the advantage really worth it? if someone pays for 500 mil (100 mil for each set of win gear plus 100 mil for materia plus 100 mil for housing, materials, minions, and such) to "win" all these things (keep in mind, that is Ten Thousand Dollars USD (or, subs for a year for 84 people)), are they worth enough to the continued running of the game that they would deserve it?
Also, you cannot use the answer "on principal", or "the morals of it". An MMO is a business, morals and principals have no dominion here.

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Your statement of "keeping FFXIV alive" is kinda false since Yoshi himself early on said that 500k users is what was needed to keep the game going and developing. At this point they have 2mil+ players, so I doubt there is an issue of "keeping the game alive". Money thrown into here is to pay the shareholders, which has no bearing on us the players. I was throwing examples at how players get an advantage, I didn't say they'd purchase every single one of the above. You can fully meld a gathering or craft gear piece on my server for about 1.2-2million gil which is what, $20? $40?. BTW, now that money is thrown around like nothing (not just by a single player, but anyone who joins in on this), the economy becomes inflated as others farm more cash to afford the higher prices, injecting even more money into the economy. Now you gotta do RMT to afford anything in the economy causing a feedback loop. This is the same principle why FFXI had such a wrecked economy, except in that case it was gil sellers doing the farming rather than the players.

Morals has everything to do with it, if you keep pushing... people will leave. It's not going to be one big thing that causes the mass exodus (thought it has happened like with Star Wars Galaxies), it will be a slow build up of crap till a straw breaks the camel's back. After watching the forums for the last year and a bit, I've seen many people leave (that I'd see often post or even argue with), usually due to a culmination of problems, not "just one thing".

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Originally Posted by FateAudax

There isn't an argument to begin with nor even a debate. Anti cash-shop players had their minds set on the false fact that SE endorses RMT for P2W (since I am arguing that SE do not condone RMT item being traded for gils). These people aren't pointing their pitchforks at players who abuses this feature but instead are pointing their pitchforks at SE, why?

My reasoning is: This Eternal Bond for gils isn't Pay-2-Win. What they are doing here is piggybacking on the latest issue which is players selling bands for gils (similar to player selling carries for gils, which both gives advantage to the seller in terms of gils) in hopes to exaggerate the issue (calling it OMG SE endorsing Pay-2-Win) to call for an abolishment of cash shop. However, ultimately all I can read from their posts is "I want the cash shop items for free because I paid for subscription". Basically, entitlement.

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Well, you are changing your argument here. I was arguing with you on the fact you said:

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Originally Posted by FateAudax

Yes, so what's the concern then? What advantage does the seller have? More gils than you?

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Which with Tocsin at least we agreed yes, it does give you an advantage in many different ways (though I disagree on if it's a good thing). So if you want to talk about whether the introduction of SE allowed (I guess endorsed was too strong allowed) RMT was on purpose or not, sure we can talk about that. I'd say that if it was so strongly opposed, then we wouldn't get a weak response from a CM going "don't do it, but we won't really do anything if you do" when obviously players are going to take advantage of it anyway. Reap the benefits while pretending to be against it. It's good that players argue NOW and avoid this being a thing in the future, rather than it being introduced and stuck in the game forever.

Now to your second part, you go back to the argument of "is selling Eternal Bond P2W?". As I showed with my last posts, yes it is P2W, even if SE endorses it or not. It gives advantages to players who sell EB rings vs those who just play within the confines of the game. You are paying to advance your character, which in MMO is the goal (there is no end to win)... thus "winning".

Oh yeah, and your last part about entitlement. What a bastardization of the word. No one is asking for the item to be given to us for free. We want it put into the game as content, and have to work to get it (since we pay a subscription already to fund these endeavors). Heck some people who want this may not even get the item due to RNG or w.e, but at least they got the chance. If you want "entitlement" (not really, but the words is thrown around here like nothing), how about paying pennies to have an item instantly appear in your inventory with no work involved at all. Why even play the game at that point? Just print out some 3d model screenshots of the item lol.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

. . . we will have no choice but to change the design of this system. . .

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Hah! I found this thread! A RL friend of mine told me about it, and the design change could be VERY easy. Just make it so that when you buy it, your name appears on the item the same way as if it were crafted. Next step, make it so that you can only use the item if you ordered it, or if you are marrying the person whose name is on it your wristlet. #MysterySolved.

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Originally Posted by Mishini_Dracoto

Hah! I found this thread! A RL friend of mine told me about it, and the design change could be VERY easy. Just make it so that when you buy it, your name appears on the item the same way as if it were crafted. Next step, make it so that you can only use the item if you ordered it, or if you are marrying the person whose name is on it your wristlet. #MysterySolved.

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You make it sound simple, but this means things like adding new table columns to the item database (assuming it's SQL), adding this information to the network packet layout, adding scripts for the removal, adding, and updating of this information, not just between the game but also the Mogstation (two teams now involved), and bug testing all this so it doesn't blow up in your face. This is probably why they'd rather have it exist than hotfix it.

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Originally Posted by TurnBased

Personally, I'm starting to accept the cash shop as a necessary evil. It just makes an otherwise perfect game flawed. But the tradeable bracelets as the devs have acknowledged urgently need to be patched. Selling carries is ok as all transactions are done in-game.

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Well that's the whole thing.. The cash shop has now cast a dark cloud over the game.. Now everything that comes out people are going to wonder if it is going in the cash shop.. Look at the missing Christmas tree for the starlight celebration and a whole thread on if it is going in the cash shop since it is missing. It has split the user base and created so much negativity it is going to scare new players from joining.

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Originally Posted by Nashred

Well that's the whole thing.. The cash shop has now cast a dark cloud over the game.. Now everything that comes out people are going to wonder if it is going in the cash shop.. Look at the missing Christmas tree for the starlight celebration and a whole thread on if it is going in the cash shop since it is missing. It has split the user base and created so much negativity it is going to scare new players from joining.

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Only on the forums. I don't think it's going to affect new subs. If that was true, whenever Blizzard added a new pet to their cash store, their sub counts would drop (they have forum flame ups over it too) and they don't.

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

Only on the forums. I don't think it's going to affect new subs. If that was true, whenever Blizzard added a new pet to their cash store, their sub counts would drop (they have forum flame ups over it too) and they don't.

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But you really dont know that and how could you or anyone. Someone is researching a game and goes to the forums and sees all the negativity and decides not to join. No one knows what could be.. Doesn't means subs would necessarily drop but they may have rose less than they could have and it would not just be when something was added.. People make choices everyday what games they are going to play. Lots of people research games now before jumping in.

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Originally Posted by Nashred

But you really dont know that and how could you or anyone.. Someone is researching a game and goes to the forums and sees all the negativity and decides not to join.. No one knows what could be.. Doesn't means subs would necessarily drop but they may have rose less than they could have and it would not just be when something was added.. People make choices everyday what games they are going to play.. Lots of people research games now before jumping in..

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The forums are a tiny percentage of the player base as it is. Most people don't touch the lodestone or the forums at all. These have way less impact that we'd like them to.

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Originally Posted by Nashred

But you really dont know that and how could you or anyone. Someone is researching a game and goes to the forums and sees all the negativity and decides not to join. No one knows what could be.. Doesn't means subs would necessarily drop but they may have rose less than they could have and it would not just be when something was added.. People make choices everyday what games they are going to play. Lots of people research games now before jumping in.

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Through my own experience, I didn't research the forums to get a feeling of this game. I bought it because its Final Fantasy.

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Originally Posted by Magis

Snip...

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Glad to see you back, Magis. this had become stagnant, which is boring.

first, over a million players? hardly. look at the investor reports. FFXIV has less than 300k active subs, and that is a FACT. I have already proven it 4 times on these forums, so ill just link a thread over.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ousing-and-gil

(off topic:you know you are an insufferable white knight, when you reference other white knight posts that you made in a white knight post lol.)

Secondly, these bracelets are selling at nearly nothing right now, just because there isnt an infinite demand for them. with everyone trying to be their own RMT, bracelets have dropped to the sub-500k range on most servers, which means that if more people want to make meaningful money, the supply of them has to increase, which will drive the cost down even further until they are completely worthless.

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If you want "entitlement" (not really, but the words is thrown around here like nothing), how about paying pennies to have an item instantly appear in your inventory with no work involved at all. Why even play the game at that point? Just print out some 3d model screenshots of the item lol

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this is something I have been wondering myself. honestly, cheats make me stop playing a game, because there isnt anything to acheive anymore. I have alway felt like RMT for gil would eliminate the fun of the game, and I would leave anyways. so are they really winning, even a little? they just ruined their experience.

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

The forums are a tiny percentage of the player base as it is. Most people don't touch the lodestone or the forums at all. These have way less impact that we'd like them to.

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I disagree that its a tiny bit nowadays and this has spread way beyond the forums.. I see it on the Facebook pages, and on gaming sites etc. I know a few people who have left because of all the negativity in this game. I also know a few who wont come over.. I have a few friends from FFXI I have been trying to convince to come and play and they all know about the cash shop etc. But it is opinion and without those stepping forward who didn't join we wont know..

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Originally Posted by Kuolema

Through my own experience, I didn't research the forums to get a feeling of this game. I bought it because its Final Fantasy.

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So did I but that aint everyone.. Actually I did because I loved FFXI but was looking for something that required a little less time..

I want to play the devil's advocate only for a second. This might have been brought up already, but let's just take this. So someone really wants the platinum wedding, but they can barely afford to play the game. They have gil, but not real money. They trade their gil for a platinum band. While that could technically be construed as money for gil, I'm not so sure that the market is going to get flooded with these things. It's really kind of niche. I certainly wouldn't use it as a way to make real money. Too much chance that I'd be left holding a whole lot of unsold bands.

But to my devil's advocate point, if one makes a purchase and gift it through the Mog station, what's to say that the persons can't make a gil exchange in game? Isn't that how gil sales work now?

Here's a possible fix - sell them in pairs! This should have been done from day one anyway, as you can't marry Platinum to gold or standard anyway. So why not sell them in pairs? Make one unique/untradeable and the other is a promise item that becomes a unique/untradeable band when gifted AND it is somehow attached to the first item. Even if they are not attached, now someone would be left with a single, unique/untradeable item. Lastly, build into the Mog station that an account can only buy a pair of bands every X # of days. Like a real bad wedding decision, 90 days until you can get another license. Something like that.

I didn't really think the whole "pair" thing through. Not everyone has the ability to purchase both bands for themselves and their partner. I did, but others don't or can't.

I just got back from a 10 day band for voicing my opinions on people who think there is an abundance of bots, so I'll stay relatively neutral, but this doesn't seem like a big cash cow to me. Prices on stuff get nerf'd so fast, I don't see this being any different.

I only ask "How is this play to win?" You can get a free wedding. You can get all the benefits of the wedding for $0.0. So what if it costs a little extra money to have the hall blue and different background music? That's not winning. Paying someone gil to get you through FCoB... That's paying to win, and I don't care if real money exchanged hands at any point or not. There was something of value that traded hands for one individual to win while the other provided a service that led to the win. Oooh, look at me, I have a baby Opo Opo. But that doesn't do anything in the game. I can ride Odin's mount. Yeah, but you don't ride any faster. So how is it paying to win? Big deal, you can have a snowman head. I don't know, maybe the definition of winning and paying the privilege means something different to me.

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Originally Posted by EricCartmenez

Here's a possible fix - sell them in pairs! This should have been done from day one anyway, as you can't marry Platinum to gold or standard anyway. So why not sell them in pairs? Make one unique/untradeable and the other is a promise item that becomes a unique/untradeable band when gifted AND it is somehow attached to the first item. Even if they are not attached, now someone would be left with a single, unique/untradeable item. Lastly, build into the Mog station that an account can only buy a pair of bands every X # of days. Like a real bad wedding decision, 90 days until you can get another license. Something like that.

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There really isn't a point in limiting them as we have seen the novelty of them have worn off. I knew it wouldn't last very long, I gave it a month from the release to die down and it didn't last that long. In the end a few people managed a few million gil in the game which is a drop in the ocean. It didn't break the game like all the doom and gloomers said it will. Who knows what will be put into the cash shop in the future and I'm not going to wildly speculate like all the gloomers have in other threads.

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Originally Posted by tocsin

Glad to see you back, Magis. this had become stagnant, which is boring.

first, over a million players? hardly. look at the investor reports. FFXIV has less than 300k active subs, and that is a FACT. I have already proven it 4 times on these forums, so ill just link a thread over.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ousing-and-gil

(off topic:you know you are an insufferable white knight, when you reference other white knight posts that you made in a white knight post lol.)

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Interesting, and good job on delving deeper into the reports to try and find the "true" subscription amount. TBH it's much lower than I expected even with my most cynical guesses. If that's the cast, then this game isn't doing much better than FFXI did back when it first came out (peaking at 500k a year or two later for a few years). I guess my arguments of "going for cheap grinds and wow-like quick satisfaction will lead to unsustainable sub numbers" was correct. That and people predicting it would lead to a cash shop is also correct. I wonder if their guess that F2P is next will come true? This actually disappoints me greatly, but who knows, maybe the game will get better in 3.0, but I am not really looking forward to it no matter how much Yoshi says to.

This is of course if someone can prove your analysis wrong. Have you updated the numbers for the latest report? Does this factor in expenses or is this pure revenue?

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Originally Posted by tocsin

Secondly, these bracelets are selling at nearly nothing right now, just because there isnt an infinite demand for them. with everyone trying to be their own RMT, bracelets have dropped to the sub-500k range on most servers, which means that if more people want to make meaningful money, the supply of them has to increase, which will drive the cost down even further until they are completely worthless.

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True. I guess my fault here is that the rings don't have inherent value like mats or combat equipment. They just exist. I think the fact that people actually come in and say "please make over of these kind of things" ticks me off more than SE's mistake. It's encouraging them to proceed with more of things like this.

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Originally Posted by tocsin

this is something I have been wondering myself. honestly, cheats make me stop playing a game, because there isnt anything to achieve anymore. I have alway felt like RMT for gil would eliminate the fun of the game, and I would leave anyways. so are they really winning, even a little? they just ruined their experience.

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This is where we are coming from and probably what makes the topic so rage enducing for some. You've taken content which we could have worked for, to play the game for, and basically made them worthless. Anyone can afford a minion or a mount, it's only $5, but they are missing the point. The fun of items is getting them and knowing you received them from the work you did. Instead it's asking more money from players while giving very little in return. At least with the merchandise SE sold you not only got a minion, but physical things you can always enjoy (and not have to keep paying a sub to see). On top of that, if the subscription rate is so low, then teams that would have been working on the game are now working on cash shop items, or things that were slated for the game end up in the cash shop instead (like most point to Slepnir).

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Originally Posted by Magis

This is where we are coming from and probably what makes the topic so rage enducing for some. You've taken content which we could have worked for, to play the game for, and basically made them worthless. Anyone can afford a minion or a mount, it's only $5, but they are missing the point...snip..(like most point to Slepnir).

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And to your own point, someone riding the Slepnir mount doesn't send the message, "I beat Odin", they just send the message, "I had $25 extra dollars (US)." :D

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Originally Posted by Magis

Interesting, and good job on delving deeper into the reports to try and find the "true" subscription amount. TBH it's much lower than I expected even with my most cynical guesses. If that's the cast, then this game isn't doing much better than FFXI did back when it first came out (peaking at 500k a year or two later for a few years).

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I think SE would be thrilled if this game doesn't do much better than XI. It's still the most successful Final Fantasy to date. It never hit ridiculously high numbers (though back in 2003/2004 500k was pretty damn good) but the player retention was incredible.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

I think SE would be thrilled if this game doesn't do much better than XI. It's still the most successful Final Fantasy to date. It never hit ridiculously high numbers (though back in 2003/2004 500k was pretty damn good) but the player retention was incredible.

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If they really wanted to bring in a lot money they would do a full update/upgrade to earlier titles such as 6,7,8,9. People have been wanting/drooling for 7 since the ps3 showed the technical demo for 7.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

I think SE would be thrilled if this game doesn't do much better than XI. It's still the most successful Final Fantasy to date. It never hit ridiculously high numbers (though back in 2003/2004 500k was pretty damn good) but the player retention was incredible.

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I agree, I played that game for a very long time... I still feel the pull once in a while. I play during the free weekends but the game really feels old now and feels like it has run its coarse.
I personally would like to see a true sequel or the game redone.. So many things need to be redone like crafting, but the game still seems to be going strong.. allot of my friends are still there and so is my old LS.

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Originally Posted by Kuolema

If they really wanted to bring in a lot money they would do a full update/upgrade to earlier titles such as 6,7,8,9. People have been wanting/drooling for 7 since the ps3 showed the technical demo for 7.

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I believe VII is coming to PS4. Like, actually officially announced.

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Originally Posted by Nashred

I agree, I played that game for a very long time... I still feel the pull once in a while. I play during the free weekends but the game really feels old now and feels like it has run its coarse.
I personally would like to see a true sequel or the game redone.. So many things need to be redone like crafting, but the game still seems to be going strong.. allot of my friends are still there and so is my old LS.

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So you're saying you'd like to see FFXI-2?

*hides behind sofa from FFXI haters*

But seriously, if they re-released FFXI with nice, shiny HD graphics and told us that it would follow exactly the same path as the original did (patches/expansions etc), I would sub to that game in a second.

My first job would be BRD, of course, for EZ mode endgame. And I miss playing Bard, I wish XIV had one.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

I believe VII is coming to PS4. Like, actually officially announced.

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Just a port from the pc version is what I've been seeing. That port wouldn't even push the PS3 to it's limits.

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

The forums are a tiny percentage of the player base as it is. Most people don't touch the lodestone or the forums at all. These have way less impact that we'd like them to.

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I wish they would do player polls and send it out to everyone's SE account email. I'd like to hope they'd get more accurate feedback this way and we'd be able to see what people really want.

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Originally Posted by Meier

I wish they would do player polls and send it out to everyone's SE account email. I'd like to hope they'd get more accurate feedback this way and we'd be able to see what people really want.

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I wish they wouldn't because that would just be a cluster f@#! of bad ideas. I'm sure that there would be a gem or two in there but quite honestly the majority would be horrible.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

I think SE would be thrilled if this game doesn't do much better than XI. It's still the most successful Final Fantasy to date. It never hit ridiculously high numbers (though back in 2003/2004 500k was pretty damn good) but the player retention was incredible.

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FFXI was their most profitable game after a decade of collecting subscriptions. Depending on how the expansion is received, the game will either crash or succeed. 500k is a good amount and is honestly all that is needed for a MMO, but I don't see how this game can have a high retention rate. FFXI hooked you in because you put a long investment in the game. Players had worked hard and long to get their gear and kept playing because of the progress they had made before. Heck, getting to max level was a feat in itself. With XIV, there is very little of that. Your gear is recycled every patch. Getting to max level takes a couple of days grinding with many people maxing 50 on all chars. The only investment players have in this game is gil and their relic (which is optional), crafting and assets that are bought with gil as well I assume (housing). Maybe minions as well if you are a collector. There is no "hook" to keep you engaged, besides the initial thrill of "new content".

I am getting a bit off topic however with this rant.

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Originally Posted by Magis

FFXI was their most profitable game after a decade of collecting subscriptions. Depending on how the expansion is received, the game will either crash or succeed. 500k is a good amount and is honestly all that is needed for a MMO, but I don't see how this game can have a high retention rate. FFXI hooked you in because you put a long investment in the game. Players had worked hard and long to get their gear and kept playing because of the progress they had made before. Heck, getting to max level was a feat in itself. With XIV, there is very little of that. Your gear is recycled every patch. Getting to max level takes a couple of days grinding with many people maxing 50 on all chars. The only investment players have in this game is gil and their relic (which is optional), crafting and assets that are bought with gil as well I assume (housing). Maybe minions as well if you are a collector. There is no "hook" to keep you engaged, besides the initial thrill of "new content".

I am getting a bit off topic however with this rant.

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I pretty much agree with all of this.

The length of time it took to cap out, merit out and get a decent set of endgame gear for even one job was pretty immense. You certainly felt like you invested a lot in your character. And the fact the endgame gear you got actually had value for more than 3 months. A lot of gear was useful for 6 years+. Because of the situational usefulness of gear and the fact that in-combat macro swaps were essential meant that there was always something to grind for, whether you had one 75 or twelve.

Hell, I levelled Thief and Dragoon just because I already had Homam from Dark Knight and Blue Mage. Homam Pants were a badge of honour damnit :)