[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

Very good point. This is like being aboe to go RDM/SCH with tier 5 or 6 nukes and with tier 5 or 6 cures or RDM/BLU with provoke and sentinel.

i like these interesting ideas alot and i hope something similer gets implemented. As long as it stays in the FF path and not the typical MMO out there with 1,000 skills covering ur screen, thn i have no problem with it.

I'm hoping that the "traditional" classes are more like class mods. For instance, my Gladiator at level 40, I could change between the existing Glad mods to become a PLD, or Soldier, or DRK any time that I could change my weapon. Each one would have a few automatic traits such as Defense bonus, critical hit chance bonus, or attack bonus, and would give access to a few abilities/spells/ws's exclusive to that mod.

I hope they also make changes to existing abilities, make more of the abilities exclusive to their native class, maybe move a few around, and make WS's exclusive to their given weapon.

As an extreme, I'd also go back to a standard class change system where you change your class by picking it from a list, just allow people to change at the same times that they can change now. Limiting each weapon to a single class, is just that, limiting.

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Originally Posted by Vaymathias

Limiting each weapon to a single class, is just that, limiting.

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Classes are Weapon Classes not Traditional MMO classes like in WoW. They are not the same as Traditional Jobs from Previous FF's either.

http://i56.tinypic.com/15h0jt1.png

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...t-Jobs-dev1033

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Classes are Weapon Classes not Traditional MMO classes like in WoW. They are not the same as Traditional Jobs from Previous FF's either.

http://i56.tinypic.com/15h0jt1.png

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...t-Jobs-dev1033

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I get that, I'm not stupid, but there's nothing stopping the dev team from going to the extremes. It doesn't make what I said false.

agreed, but we are trying to find ideas that will make the game more fun to the ones playing it and the ones that want changes. if you do change and make the base class abilities and ws's exclusive alot that enjoy the way the game is now will quit so you would fix one problem and create another. by making the advanced classes have exclusive abilities and keeping the base classes the way they are seems like a very reasonable concession between the 2 groups.

I don't really care much for the people playing now. They've proven that they will play regardless, considering that they've been playing this long. We need to aim our changes at whats going to attract regular MMO players and regular FF fans.

The people that have played up until now aren't going anywhere. It's just a front - don't be fooled.

I love this idea. It is honestly how imagined that Square was going to create FFXIV from day 1. I hope they can still do it!

if you remove the ability to cross class yes they will and i will be the first to go along with most of my ls. but if you want to go to that scenario i don't care what you have to say either so let's just fight instead of tryin to work together. how bout this idea since wow has massively higher a member base why not make this exactly like wow and piss off the xi fans? sounds stupid right? that's how you guys act towards the people with conflicting views and your post is evidence. some of us are not wow heads nor are we former xi members, but we got the game because it does exactly what it said it was going to do in giving freedom to make your character what you want not be limited by a job. we make our character play a role needed in a party by fixing the abilities the way we want.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

I don't really care much for the people playing now. They've proven that they will play regardless, considering that they've been playing this long. We need to aim our changes at whats going to attract regular MMO players and regular FF fans.

The people that have played up until now aren't going anywhere. It's just a front - don't be fooled.

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Did you ever consider the people that are playing now are enjoying it because of the openness and the freedom the system has and thus would quit if you took all that away?

Replacing one fan base with another doesn't fix anything. It ends up upsetting both.

No. What I noticed is that people like abusing a completely broken system. The fact that theres so much freedom is why we're discussing this in the first place. Besides I'm not taking away all their freedom - just the parts being exploited now.

Don't confuse freedom as being better than being given a few logical choices. Freedom is an illusion.

In FFXI you were free to choose whatever subjob you want. Now if SE told you that you could only use certain subjobs for each class:

Ranger could only sub Warrior, Samurai, and Ninja. Would that have hampered that job's ability to perform? Not in the slightest. Why? Because those were the only subjobs that were being used by that job, period. If a Ranger came to your merit party, HNM party with a Black Mage sub what would you say? Wheres your freedom of play now?

Yes, thats what I thought.

If you can honestly come up with a well thought out counter argument to this I'd LOVE to hear it.

Anyways, theres some food for thought. Back to BG for me.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

No. What I noticed is that people like abusing a completely broken system. The fact that theres so much freedom is why we're discussing this in the first place. Besides I'm not taking away all their freedom - just the parts being exploited now.

Don't confuse freedom as being better than being given a few logical choices. Freedom is an illusion.

In FFXI you were free to choose whatever subjob you want. Now if SE told you that you could only use certain subjobs for each class:

Ranger could only sub Warrior, Samurai, and Ninja. Would that have hampered that job's ability to perform? Not in the slightest. Why? Because those were the only subjobs that were being used by that job, period. If a Ranger came to your merit party, HNM party with a Black Mage sub what would you say? Wheres your freedom of play now?

Yes, thats what I thought.

If you can honestly come up with a well thought out counter argument to this I'd LOVE to hear it.

Anyways, theres some food for thought. Back to BG for me.

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you call it freedom and i call it restricting. that's why we are trying to find a medium between both groups but one group wants to attack the other. that's why we agreed with the idea of the advanced classes with abilities that cannot be used on the base classes. the best argument you can come up with it it gets rid of traditional roles so i can't be lazy and only level one class with a second part time class and be a god. you don't want to take the time to level alot of classes so you want to attack the ones that do. some of us enjoy the freedom to choose to level a bunch of classes and have a bunch of abilities to use from each one. you want to level 2 classes and have a main with a subjob.

if you want to use that argument you fail in itself because if you want a traditional class/job/role whatever you want to call it then the subjob should not be allowed either. you would have one class with no subjob and only the abilities for that one class. then there will just be more people complaining that oh the thm is too overpowered or the arc does way too much damage.

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Wheres your freedom of play now?

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I for one know a lot of people who would have quit if they took away the ability to equip any subjob you wanted in XI even if it didn't take away the specific subjobs they used themselves. I would have been one of them, because some of the most fun I had in XI was when I played Job Combinations that most people ignore. Even if it was only for a specific event.


White Mage/Paladin - Tanking Bones for a Mnk/PLDx5 Party.
Ninja/Ranger - Dealing enough ranged damage that I could tank without war.
Blu/Pld - Shield Bash works even if its on a Alljobs Shield.
Samurai/Drg - Yay /drg gear.

There were tons more too that I never got invites to parties for, but myself had fun playing as.

Any limitations of that nature should be implemented by yourself or the community and not the game developer. Thats the nature of a sandbox.

The School Builds the walls, it fills it with sand and toys but The people playing in it make the rules within those walls.

The problem with your system is you are trying to make the sandbox small then we already have access too.

oh i was not promoting taking away of them at all. i was more of just using his point against him. he wants the subjob system but not the whole thing. he wants it so they can concentrate on 2 classes and not enjoy all of them. if he wants to do that he does have that option, but he wants to take the option away from others to have 3-4 classes because he is only going to use 2. the thing is using traditional as an argument goes against the traditional values. if you are a gla you should be a gla only not a gla/monk as each would take a lifetime to perfect.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

oh i was not promoting taking away of them at all. i was more of just using his point against him. he wants the subjob system but not the whole thing. he wants it so they can concentrate on 2 classes and not enjoy all of them. if he wants to do that he does have that option, but he wants to take the option away from others to have 3-4 classes because he is only going to use 2. the thing is using traditional as an argument goes against the traditional values. if you are a gla you should be a gla only not a gla/monk as each would take a lifetime to perfect.

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Sorry my post was in reply to Kuro

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

oh i was not promoting taking away of them at all. i was more of just using his point against him. he wants the subjob system but not the whole thing. he wants it so they can concentrate on 2 classes and not enjoy all of them. if he wants to do that he does have that option, but he wants to take the option away from others to have 3-4 classes because he is only going to use 2. the thing is using traditional as an argument goes against the traditional values. if you are a gla you should be a gla only not a gla/monk as each would take a lifetime to perfect.

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I just came back to say that this makes absolutely no sense. Seriously, look at my sig (which is outdated)... do I look like someone who is only going to play 2 classes? I'm someone who leveled 5-6 jobs to 75 when I played XI so this notion that I'm only doing this to be lazy... I don't even know where to begin.

I'm sorry but your "point" is... let's just say you should've thought that out better. Cause it doesn't refute mine nor have much to do with it.

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The problem with your system is you are trying to make the sandbox small then we already have access too.

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Of course I am and I admit it. Not because I want to but because we have to. This mix-match, play what you like regardless of how good/bad it is, is whats killing the game. Current classes have no sense of self because in the end we're only leveling them to a certain point to get X skill/trait. As I said in the OP, find me 5-10 Lancers that you know personally who leveled it to 50, then I'll tell you 20-30 that leveled it just for Fleet of Foot (20).

Lastly, I'd just like to apologize for looking at these changes through the eyes of a min-maxer.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

I just came back to say that this makes absolutely no sense. Seriously, look at my sig (which is outdated)... do I look like someone who is only going to play 2 classes? I'm someone who leveled 5-6 jobs to 75 when I played XI so this notion that I'm only doing this to be lazy... I don't even know where to begin.

I'm sorry but your "point" is... let's just say you should've thought that out better. Cause it doesn't refute mine nor have much to do with it.



Of course I am and I admit it. Not because I want to but because we have to. This mix-match, play what you like regardless of how good/bad it is, is whats killing the game. Current classes have no sense of self because in the end we're only leveling them to a certain point to get X skill/trait. As I said in the OP, find me 5-10 Lancers that you know personally who leveled it to 50, then I'll tell you 20-30 that leveled it just for Fleet of Foot (20).

Lastly, I'd just like to apologize for looking at these changes through the eyes of a min-maxer.

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I do not see what the problem with that is, Its the same thing that happened in XI where people would level nin to 37 and quit as soon as they learned Utsusemi:Ni before the level cap raised.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

I do not see what the problem with that is, Its the same thing that happened in XI where people would level nin to 37 and quit as soon as they learned Utsusemi:Ni before the level cap raised.

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The problem with it, like Kuro said, is that these classes don't have a purpose to level outside of getting skill X.

So essentially yeah I can level all the classes, but eventually all my skills will mix together to form some ultimate class.

So you pretty much get rid of any WTM or BLM and you get a gray mage.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

I do not see what the problem with that is, Its the same thing that happened in XI where people would level nin to 37 and quit as soon as they learned Utsusemi:Ni before the level cap raised.

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Yes I agree, but the difference here is that NIN was actually a great job. LNC and the rest of the classes in this game are so bland/bad. They need to be able to stand on its own... and please don't say that "its so you can mix-match" - thats just grasping at straws. A class shouldn't need to pull from others to be good - I agree that it'll make them better, but it shouldn't be necessary.

Thank you Napalmninja.

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Originally Posted by napalmninja

The problem with it, like Kuro said, is that these classes don't have a purpose to level outside of getting skill X.

So essentially yeah I can level all the classes, but eventually all my skills will mix together to form some ultimate class.

So you pretty much get rid of any WTM or BLM and you get a gray mage.

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Which Is why I suggested a system that implements Job Classes (What people keep asking for) in tandem with Weapon Classes (What we already have).

http://i56.tinypic.com/15h0jt1.png

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...t-Jobs-dev1033
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Class-Renaming

I want to give people clear and cut definitions/roles in groups. So that when they gear up, pick spells/traits from other Base Classes, etc they know what they should be shooting for. That sorta thing shouldn't be left to use BGers to tell the world. You should know what you're supposed to do in a group, how you should gear/equip spells. What BGers are supposed to tell you is how WS calculations work, what stats are mods for which WS, numerical enmity values for certain abilities/spells, etc.

Theorycrafters shouldn't have to tell you the basics.

As I said earlier in this thread Cairdeas - your "solution" doesn't fix our current classes. It just adds more.

big deal. where is having that a bad thing? i would rather have a mage in my party that can fill both roles as needed inside the party. you will still need each to have a role inside the party, but they will have the ability to change as needed. same can be said for any of the other cross class skills. you will still need a tank at higher levels just as you will need dd's. just because they have and can use the abilities when in a party they will have a set role to play. that's part of playing in the party as a group is to figure out what each can do and use tactics to figure out what they will be doing.

btw the this "mix match styple of play is ruining the game" is moronic. it is short sighted to the major issues that have caused people to leave the game by limiting it to what you see as wrong. the game not having content and things to do is what is causing people to leave. i can bet you hear at least 50 say they left because the game is boring for every 1 that says it was the armory system. i doubt it's that close to be honest. most people that have left say the same thing there is no content and i will check back after stuff is added to see if it's worth my time.

the truth is if you only want to level one job and use abilities as a subjob that is YOUR choice. if i want to level all base classes and have a unique character that is MY choice. the game was advertised on having the choice and some people not being able to comprehend what that meant is not my fault.

"LOL BG THEORYCRAFTERS" Shouldn't be allowed to tell people how to play their own damn characters.

If you want to impose limits Kuro, impose them on yourself.

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Originally Posted by Shazaam

Purely conjecture and theory but:

I think it would have you start at 20/30 drk, but with NO points in the DRK 'tree/spheregrid/licenseboard/abilitypool' (whatever you want to call it) You would be lvl 20/30 drk because you already have the experience of being a GLD and know how to fight. Your DRK or PLD specific powers would be a lvl 1 though. As you continue to level up, you will gain skill as a GLD and either as a PLD or DRK. So you could cap out GLD at 50, and PLD at (random average number let's say 10). If you wanted to go level DRK, you would still be a GLD 50 with all GLD skills available, but you would have to start at DRK 1, meaning no DRK bonuses. You could continue to level your DRK up to (random number 10) but would no longer receive exp for your capped GLD. Much like how the current physical/rank level system works.

Instead of physical level, it would be 'GLD level', and a separate rank level in for the 'advanced class' of PLD or DRK. Still 2 exp systems, but one that raises the 'base class' level, and one that raises the 'job' level.

Again, just adding conjecture to the thread, I am sure a rested Kaze will have a better response for you.

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finally found my idea after reading from page 1 of the thread until now. Thank you. We know MONEY IS A REAL LIFE ISSUE! These well developed and "faithful" ideas are arousing but impossible to implement within time to save the project called FFXIV--(That would be free trial extension for an additional year). So Kuro and other lets change this thread to focus on how to take some of what is well established and build on it. And we all know to some extent that is what will take place. So a recap
-Get rid of physical levels and replace it with class levels
-DO NOT allow cross class trait/abilities
-But still require the job (specialty/title-"Dark Knight") be a certain rank to get full access to GLA higher traits/abilities.
Example drk1/gla50 would not have same access to GLA traits/abilities like drk40/gla 50.
-(advantage of fft) have spell/ability tiers that are transferable between jobs similar to FFXI.
Example 40whm can use some 20- job spells/ability.
... I got to go... I will finish post later

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Originally Posted by javid

finally found my idea after reading from page 1 of the thread until now. Thank you. We know MONEY IS A REAL LIFE ISSUE! These well developed and "faithful" ideas are arousing but impossible to implement within time to save the project called FFXIV--(That would be free trial extension for an additional year). So Kuro and other lets change this thread to focus on how to take some of what is well established and build on it. And we all know to some extent that is what will take place. So a recap
-Get rid of physical levels and replace it with class levels
-DO NOT allow cross class trait/abilities
-But still require the job (specialty/title-"Dark Knight") be a certain rank to get full access to GLA higher traits/abilities.
Example drk1/gla50 would not have same access to GLA traits/abilities like drk40/gla 50.
-(advantage of fft) have spell/ability tiers that are transferable between jobs similar to FFXI.
Example 40whm can use some 20- job spells/ability.
... I got to go... I will finish post later

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Removal of Cross Class skills would make a huge majority of the loyal player base jump ship.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Removal of Cross Class skills would make a huge majority of the loyal player base jump ship.

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I don't think anyone will jump ship but it would be pointless to remove cross class skills.

An alternative idea is to create certain requirements of equiping a certain combo of cross class skills in order to attain the title of advance class and thus be able to equip its class specific equipment. For example, to be a paladin and equip paladin gear you would need to have gladiator class equipped with cure, cure 2, and protect etc.

Your sacrifice won't be forgoten, Cairdeas. Have fun on the moon people's ship. Its like the people that oppose Kuro's idea are speaking the moon peoples language. I'm not trying to be funny. I really don't understand where you and some others are coming from Cairdeas? Its like you guys have never had any concept of the 3rd dimension, and there is no way to get you to understand.

In addition to my earlier post.
- Completely gut each class of their weaponskills and spells except for a few like speed surge,life surge,... and focus each class (weapon specialist) on gaining traits. Example Gla rank 20 +5% haste in wielding sword, Gla rank 35 unlock dual-wield, etc.
-now to break the linearity revamp guild marks to give access to a fft ( or merit system). This will allow ppl to focus class (weapon specialist) to cater to certain jobs (titles).
Example sword haste +10%, +15% and +20% vs Gsword +5% more dmg, +10% , +15% more dmg. However investing into one branch (or merit) will not allow you to max out the other branch. So a combo of 15% sword haste +5% Gsword dmg is possible but not a +20% sword haste and +15% Gsword more dmg.
-Nor should they restrict what class can use certain jobs. Allow the player to do as they want. The community will decide a jobs place. XI examples: drk/blm, or bst/pup or brd/drk were possible combos but didn't prove highly efficient combos, so they were likely avoided. In this game (FFXIV) if a person wants to be a smn/mrd with extremely limited mp let the Galka have its fun!
-running out of ideas ><

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Originally Posted by Amsai

Your sacrifice won't be forgoten, Cairdeas. Have fun on the moon people's ship. Its like the people that oppose Kuro's idea are speaking the moon peoples language. I'm not trying to be funny. I really don't understand where you and some others are coming from Cairdeas? Its like you guys have never had any concept of the 3rd dimension, and there is no way to get you to understand.

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Or maybe it is you that do not understand that there are those of us who actually enjoy the System as it is now. And would be upset and leave should the core values of it be removed. Like I said before, SE built us a huge ass sandbox, your ideas are like asking them to make it smaller and to take all the toys and sand out of it. You make it too small and you can't build anything worth while in it, so why build in it?

If you only want to use a corner of the sandbox by my guest but don't try and make it so we can't use the whole sandbox when we want too.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Removal of Cross Class skills would make a huge majority of the loyal player base jump ship.

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I didn't make my distinguish clear enough. class= weapon specialist. So what I mean by removal of cross class is a SWORD user's ability/trait with the sword (example +10% sword haste) should not transfer to a AXE user (giving axe user +10% sword haste even though he can only use AXEs...)


I want every single ability/trait that is not assocaited with a job (title-rdm/whm/drk/pld/...etc) a focused on the actual weapon being used. This is what I meant by getting rid of cross class (weapon specialist). But if you wanted to be a 30drk main with some 15rdm spells (very limited) and a few 15sam abilities (very limited) then that great! Think of this idea like FFXI main job/sub job on top of unique classes (WEAPON SPECIALIST).

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Or maybe it is you that do not understand that there are those of us who actually enjoy the System as it is now. And would be upset and leave should the core values of it be removed. Like I said before, SE built us a huge ass sandbox, your ideas are like asking them to make it smaller and to take all the toys and sand out of it. You make it too small and you can't build anything worth while in it, so why build in it?

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Actually, right now the perfect analogy for the game is that every teacher in a school told all their kids: learn whatever you want. We have no curriculum. You choose to teach yourself anything you want. That is utter chaos my friend. People need direction, people need to be guided on a path because that is their nature, to follow their calling, their path.

Agree to disagree I guess, Cairdeas??? All I know for sure is whether the dev team goes in a direction I like or not, I'd really like a clear indication and a general (even very very loose) schedule of whats (specifically) implemented when. Can we at least agree upon that? So far we know that they are going to make changes to certain things but not specifically what those changes will be. The sooner I know exactly what direction this game will take, the sooner I can rededicate myself too it or move on.

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Originally Posted by WiiSam

Actually, right now the perfect analogy for the game is that every teacher in a school told all their kids: learn whatever you want. We have no curriculum. You choose to teach yourself anything you want. That is utter chaos my friend. People need direction, people need to be guided on a path because that is their nature, to follow their calling, their path.

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I went to a Learn at Your Own Pace Private High School. I got to dictate what I learned, when I learned it, and at what pace I could go. I graduated with a 4.3 and was valedictorian of my class and completed the high school requirements for class credits in my state in 2 years. Then graduated from college before most of my peers in public school were even out of high school.

Your analogy isn't valid.

Yes, his analogy isn't valid because it worked for 1 person (you) out of the lot. PERFECT. I could say more but it might be a tad offensive so I'm gonna hold off now...

Can we just agree to disagree and you can stay in your other thread?

To be blunt, Cairdeas, your life experiences are the excpetion and not the rule. I've said it before, but people are dumb. I like Kuro's idea in general, but aside from being a bit more pleasing to my sense of order, it also has the ability to heard the filthy masses. You might do well with a sandbox, but its the last thing most people need, its too big for them. The less decisions they have to make, the less poor decisions will take over.

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Originally Posted by Amsai

To be blunt, Cairdeas, your life experiences are the excpetion and not the rule. I've said it before, but people are dumb. I like Kuro's idea in general, but aside from being a bit more pleasing to my sense of order, it also has the ability to heard the filthy masses. You might do well with a sandbox, but its the last thing most people need, its too big for them. The less decisions they have to make, the less poor decisions will take over.

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While I was Valedictorian of my class my experiences were far from exception. Everyone at that school did the same thing. I just did it best.

Yes. I'm sure everyone got a 4.0 - 4.3. You've lost all credibility... just go back to your thread. lol

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

Yes. I'm sure everyone got a 4.0 - 4.3. You've lost all credibility... just go back to your thread. lol

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Not a 4.0 no, but they graduated earlier then public school lads and lasses.

no what you guys are doing is not equal to teachings in school. don't kid yourselves. what you are proposing is in school only teach math and make math the norm, but forget all the different subjects. some of us like all the other subjects and use then to make an overall education. since you guys wanted to use an analogy i figured i'd add to it.

We're losing focus on the thread. let's add to the ideas for the bettering of the game instead of personal egos... So anyone prefer classes be reduce completely to weapon specialist with a few weapon abilities? Again I still down for having classes at certain rank requirments/trait requirements to unlock titles (jobs). I remember someone being upset if the class was only ranked for a certain unlock. But that happens in games. In FFXI lots of ppl unlocked ninja and lvled it to 37 just to get 3 shadows as a sub. Freedom isn't a bad thing when augmented with incentive driven guidelines. In FFXI a 75 dnc/nin could main heal! Wasn't necessarily the BEST but was better than a smn/whm blm/whm or a brd/whm.