Lets Talk - Red Mage

Whatever the red mage does, since this is an mmo and people will pick you for being good at what you do (in FFXI red mage was a buff pez machine) then you have to design the characters around what you want the class to feel.

For example from most FF red mage are quite dangerous - you wont get this feeling unless you bind any buffs to incredibly powerful self buffs (or more powerful on self) or make all of these spells require melee attention (burning lotus applies enfire, does damage). There is a reason why the Red Mage uses a sword rather then a staff.

FFXI red mage will not comeback unless SE noobs it up. Ignoring blue mage I think you could make the Red Mage take blue's place in a FFXI lens equivalent (had some variances (could buff/debuff) but mostly an awesome spike dpser - blue did some amazing burns).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Seems like they could have figured out a more immediate way to fix the idea of Buffer / Debuffer gameplay than simply sticking something good enough atop it so that the pain is alleviated. I can't think of any exact examples right now, but I really, really doubt this is any new concept:

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What you have describes sounds to me like it could be a cool style of game play if it were to be implemented properly. I've always been a big fan of strategic and timed attacks.

The hardest part about building a Buffing/Debuffing class is your #3.

Unless the development team creates a large number of situations specifically for making Buff/Debuff superior to Pure DPS people will be far more likely to Choose DPS. This is where you get stuck with things like Crawlers in FFXI. The best XP in the game for a large part of the game, but you MUST have a Red Mage or a Brd. You cannot fight them effectively without one. Every time you add a situation like this a Specific class becomes more and more necessary and then your not looking for a tank and a healer, your looking for a tank and a healer and a buffer and a debuffer. Things get complicated.

You also have to consider a Class's viability as a Solo Class. Will a class who's main focus is to enhance the abilites of allies and degrade the abilities of enemies have the ability to survive on it's own? This becomes especially difficult with a 15 ability cap.

I like your concept and i think it could be fun in FFXI. A game where you are more or less required to have a party. But in XIV and many Western MMOs, people play alone 75% of the time or more.

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Originally Posted by moriandrio

So you want a very very powerfull frontline job, that gets nuke/heal/buff/debuff skills. This will never happen, if they implement RDM it gotta be a backline job that actually does the same it allready did in ffxi and not more.

Most ppl that want RDM, want a overpowerd solojob they can kite everything to death like it was possbile in FFXI but i doubt SE gonna be so stupid doing this again.

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Quite the opposite, most who disdain people who want RDM or when RDM's ask for something relevant, seem to jump to this conclusion. If anything most RDM's and people desiring RDM want to have their own uniqueness that's sought after by groups while keeping within the RDM's spectrum of front liner with magic capabilities a battle-mage or spell-sword if you will, most do not want the bastardized FFXI rendition of RDM that lost 98% it's uniqueness and effectiveness after the level cap went beyond 75 that SE mostly left untouched for over 8 years.

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Originally Posted by Ladon

We're still missing stuff like:

-Haste
-Reflect/Damage shields
-En- spells
-ATK enhancement
-MAG ATK enhancement

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Haste is not going to be in-game according to Yoshida. And if he were to change his mind, I'd expect it to be implemented similar to how Bloodlust/Heroism/Time Warp works in WoW (30-40% Haste for 12 seconds), but as part of Time Mage's spell repertoire.

Reflect doesn't work in an MMO unless it's a one-use spell. Even then, I'd have to ask that you still take damage before the spell is reflected back for balance purposes. Damage shields belong on dedicated healers. Build a healer around it, call it Mystic/Oracle/Geomancer and you're done. Unless it's self-only, then I can see RDM having it.

En-spells have melee mage written all over it, and that's what should be used to make RDM's combat style shine. As such, I'd expect those to be self-only.

Attack and Magic Attack I can see, but it'd have to be an instant cast 30-minute group buff that grants both effects.

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I really just don't see a place for RDM on the frontlines in a MMO. It makes far more sense for them to be built as a good, dynamic enhancer.

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My troll-o-meter is going into red from this comment, but I'll bite: the discussions that have been going on over several years since the FFXI mess, combined with the plethora of suggestions since then make front-line Red Mage very plausible and wanted. Find some other suckerjob to shackle to "enhancing only".

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Originally Posted by Ladon

I'm not really sure where this idea of Red Mage came from. Even in the single player games they were supporters filling many roles so it's completely valid to branch them from any of these roles to fit a MMO.

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Simple. Class design as per single-player Final Fantasy games cannot be carbon copied into an MMO. It doesn't work. XI proved this easily. Hence why you take the classes and adapt them to how they would fit. SE chose poorly in XI. We are hoping they choose wisely this time around.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

No, it's not subjective. It is quite objective. There must always be a thrill for a class to remain enjoyable for an extended period of time. Tanks constantly have to worry about keeping the hate and wondering if they will survive. This minor paranoia creates a thrill that draws people to the class. Melees and Nukers have the thrill of seeing large number fly off the screen while always being at risk of pushing things to far and getting killed. Healers have the thrill of the whole fight depending on them and everyone's lives being in their hands. One bad mistake and its all over.

Nothing depends on a Buffing class. Nothing. The difference between a good buffer and a bad buffer is a 30 second fight instead of a 40 second fight. There is no thrill and no rush on any level. In XI Bards had to figure out how to both buff and pull just so they weren't so bored they wanted to die. In the end, they mastered the task leaving Ranger without a Job.

The same problem applies for Debuffers. Yoshida saw this. I can guarantee it. Now summoners don't have to settle for commanding a Pet once a minute or becoming backup healers. They have taken One really boring task and mixed it in to one Really popular Class and now Debuffers do not have to be bored anymore. Everquest used this same tactic on buffing class with Enchanters. By mixing them in to a Pet Class, the horrible boredom was eaten away by the thrill of having a pet to command in the midst of the fight.

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I...I think I love you.

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Originally Posted by moriandrio

So you want a very very powerfull frontline job, that gets nuke/heal/buff/debuff skills. This will never happen, if they implement RDM it gotta be a backline job that actually does the same it allready did in ffxi and not more.

Most ppl that want RDM, want a overpowerd solojob they can kite everything to death like it was possbile in FFXI but i doubt SE gonna be so stupid doing this again.

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Every single person in this thread is said they want Red Mage to be nothing like the one in XI. It was boring. The only fun part of Red Mage in XI was soloing.

I stated that Red Mage was always a very very powerful front line job in all the classic final fantasies. I never said it should be very very powerful in XIV. It should be on par with every other damage dealer.

If you actually look at the reasonable concept I posted for Red Mage, it fairly obvious that it would not be overpowered. Having Tier 1 Cure and Tier 1 Nukes would not make them Over Power. It would make them Under Powered. That is why you would use their melee Combos to enhance the Potency of their Magic. You blend Melee and Mage together in to one fluid fighting style. A Red Mage's Buffs would never Rival those of a Whm because they would not receive the Conjurers Class Traits. They would never nuke as hard as a BLM because they would only have the First Tier of Nukes. But they would likely Hit about as fast and hard as a Monk but instead of 9 hit weaponskills they would Burst Damage with Spells that have been enhanced by their combos.

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Quite the opposite, most who disdain people who want RDM or when RDM's ask for something relevant, seem to jump to this conclusion. If anything most RDM's and people desiring RDM want to have their own uniqueness that's sought after by groups while keeping within the RDM's spectrum of front liner with magic capabilities a battle-mage or spell-sword if you will, most do not want the bastardized FFXI rendition of RDM that lost 98% it's uniqueness and effectiveness after the level cap went beyond 75 that SE mostly left untouched for over 8 years.

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You aren't going to find any uniqueness in creating yet another DD focused class.

Also this idea of RDMs being frontline is a total arbitrary concept made up by a certain subset of people. RDMs are as people are aware a jack of all trades. They can somewhat fight and somewhat use spells. People also realize that this jack-of-all-trades style does not work in MMOs and therefore need to focus the RDMs in one of it's trades to be considered useful. This however does not mean he has to be a front line fighter. This is just one route to go. They can also take the class more towards it's spell casting perspective and still be a Red Mage. They did this poorly with FFXI, however I blame it more on the mechanics of the game NOT the concept of the class. The concept of the class was solid, they just ended up watering down FFXI by making too many jobs and bleeding class roles all over the place.

Once again, a enhancer RDM in FF14 is completely valid. It could easily be made to fill a unique role as one unlike trying to make it another Dragoon with a different set of weaponskills and a cool hat. And once again, thoughtful engagement of a class is determined more by the content, not the design of the class. If enmity was for example proximity based, a tank in this game would be completely boring. BLM roles are already marginally boring on the ones that just require them to stand in one spot casing Thunder combos all fight. Enemies without AEs are boring as hell for most melee DD and low damage fights such as Hamlet are snorefests for WHMs that actually make me hate playing the class in them.

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Not hatin on your creativity, but as it stands every job has it's own unique abilities and spells and can stand on it's own two feet fulfilling it's primary role without the use of cross-class abilities. In order for RDM or any job worth two salts to work they have to be able to stand on their own and utilize cross-class abilities to enhance their game not be restricted to it.

Going with this method also means you have to level multiple jobs to even operate halfway-decently beforehand, making it ineffective to level if you don't level CON/THM first, nor does it give you much to any room to use support abilities from those classes like Sacred Prism when all your cross class slots are being eaten up by T1 nuking/healing spells.

This is mostly why I've been saying it would be nigh impossible to really have a carbon copy of classic/FFXI's RDM without making it worthless.

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You misunderstand the intention behind the design. I used a few ability names already in the game (such as Fire and Cure) to make it implicit what spells I was talking about. But for a while I had Blaze in there instead of Fire, I changed it to Fire later because I was afraid it would be misunderstood (that it was a spell like Fire). Blaze or Fire, these would be FNC (or RDM) native abilities, not cross-class abilities.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

Every single person in this thread is said they want Red Mage to be nothing like the one in XI. It was boring. The only fun part of Red Mage in XI was soloing.

I stated that Red Mage was always a very very powerful front line job in all the classic final fantasies. I never said it should be very very powerful in XIV. It should be on par with every other damage dealer.

If you actually look at the reasonable concept I posted for Red Mage, it fairly obvious that it would not be overpowered. Having Tier 1 Cure and Tier 1 Nukes would not make them Over Power. It would make them Under Powered. That is why you would use their melee Combos to enhance the Potency of their Magic. You blend Melee and Mage together in to one fluid fighting style. A Red Mage's Buffs would never Rival those of a Whm because they would not receive the Conjurers Class Traits. They would never nuke as hard as a BLM because they would only have the First Tier of Nukes. But they would likely Hit about as fast and hard as a Monk but instead of 9 hit weaponskills they would Burst Damage with Spells that have been enhanced by their combos.

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Id want RDM to be exactly like that. Agreed it wouldn't be overpowered. If dude is just reading your words and not thinking about what you have actually, said yeah it sounds like you want a "god" job. In reality if you think about what you said and take into consideration SE would balance it, it would be one sweet job and probly a lot of fun! I think a mage/melee job would be a great addition.

People cant just pull out the words MELEE and NUKE and HEAL and assume itll melee like a DRG, nuke like a BLM, and heal like a WHM. Gotta read those all those words people put in between that make the entire sentence or paragraph.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

What you have describes sounds to me like it could be a cool style of game play if it were to be implemented properly. I've always been a big fan of strategic and timed attacks.

The hardest part about building a Buffing/Debuffing class is your #3.

Unless the development team creates a large number of situations specifically for making Buff/Debuff superior to Pure DPS people will be far more likely to Choose DPS. This is where you get stuck with things like Crawlers in FFXI. The best XP in the game for a large part of the game, but you MUST have a Red Mage or a Brd. You cannot fight them effectively without one. Every time you add a situation like this a Specific class becomes more and more necessary and then your not looking for a tank and a healer, your looking for a tank and a healer and a buffer and a debuffer. Things get complicated.

You also have to consider a Class's viability as a Solo Class. Will a class who's main focus is to enhance the abilites of allies and degrade the abilities of enemies have the ability to survive on it's own? This becomes especially difficult with a 15 ability cap.

I like your concept and i think it could be fun in FFXI. A game where you are more or less required to have a party. But in XIV and many Western MMOs, people play alone 75% of the time or more.

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Agreed. To all of it. It requires that a lot of unique boss mechanics actually be an aggragation of smaller pieces, and abilities against them better spread out across all classes. Or, at least, if there's some sort of 1-hit move that will crush you (unless you have ability A67C up) you can still run out like a pansy to avoid it, losing some killing speed but staying alive.

It probably can't really work in a setting that so rigidly defines roles. The tank and spank player mentality would mentally perish, painfully, under a system in which this kind of gameplay could shine.

Which kind of goes back to the not-quite (but to most extents, effectively true) mutual exclusive:
Being able to play without much attention vs. not having boring class roles.

P.S. I guess I'm hoping for a kind of gameplay that does take a lot of attention at least in original strategy-making, but you can gradually roll into a comfortably "at the keys" but leisurely pace once used to your skillful place in a skillful party. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Ladon

Also this idea of RDMs being front line is a total arbitrary concept made up by a certain subset of people.

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I could not possibly disagree with you more.

There is a reason Red Mages equip armor and wield swords instead of robes, wands and staves. They are 100% meant to use those things and you don't do that sitting on the back line casting refresh and haste ad nauseum.

Enspells are yet another indicator of what SE meant RDM to be even in XI. Enspells are self melee buffs. Phalanx was a self buff to mitigate melee damage from an enemy. Composure was specifically designed to buff melee ability in both attack accuracy and to prolong those self buffs. Every single incarnation of the RDM design in Final Fantasy points to its place being on the front line.

The history of the job does not support your claims.

While there may be room for a job you envision, it would be a mistake to make that RDM when RDM has never been about that and the fans of the job do not want what you describe for their favorite job.