When are we supposed to stop fighting?

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Originally Posted by Pofruin

Why did you start "bad faith argument" Thread if you also post posts like this?

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Why did everyone who read that thread expect me to be an exemplar for them, without analyzing themselves? The onus is not entirely on me to make hospitable posts 24/7 and somehow change the forum, especially when I've been insulted too. I think it took only a week for someone to try to leverage my creation of that thread against me in an argument, because I responded in kind to someone who put me down. You can believe I'm a hypocrite or double minded or whatever you want, but just because I espoused the desire for the forum to be better doesn't mean I'll sit and take insults, insinuated or otherwise. It also doesn't mean that I'm perfect. Part of the reason that I created that thread, was that people from the forum who communicate with me outside of the forum told me I wasn't considered a problem poster. I wanted to see if it was true, and I also wanted to see what people thought constituted bad faith.

In the end, I didn't learn very much, other than there's a lot of old grudges in this sub forum. There's almost no introspective posters here. Most people here believe they aren't part of the problem, and do little in the way of offering solutions to stop arguments/derailment. I try and I fail. I'm sure I'm a laughingstock. But I am earnest, and I am open.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Here's the thing, though, which is actually related to the topic at hand: the Ancients reacted so horrifically poorly not just 'because of trauma', but because to them it was unprecedented trauma. They'd spent so long completely without any kind of suffering that when it inevitably came (as it inevitably does, no matter what), they had absolutely no experience in how to deal with anything like it, and so no framework in how to make a good decision.

The second sacrifice was tragic and completely understandable, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a mistake made by people who just didn't have the life experience required to do things right.

And us? We learn from that, and try to avoid making the same mistakes. Because that's how life is: we experience suffering, be it first or second hand, and try to not fall in the same holes.

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We know just from playing through the game that the Ancients were quite well acquainted with suffering. We also know that they were actually even quicker to learn from their mistakes than the sundered a lot of the time. Like the sundered, they too had their own battles to fight. Also like the sundered, many of these battles weren't of a physical nature. Their fighting probably would never have stopped either.

That aside, how do you figure the second set of sacrifices was a mistake? The planet was quite literally no longer capable of supporting life. Were it not for the second sacrifice to Zodiark, it would've remained a barren wasteland all but devoid of life. In time, even the remaining Ancients (of which the game leads us to believe were only the Amaurotines, all others beyond it having apparently already died) would've succumbed to the near-literal hellscape the environment had become. More than merely fixing the world, it was through the second set of sacrifices that new life was sown upon it.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

We know just from playing through the game that the Ancients were quite well acquainted with suffering. We also know that they were actually even quicker to learn from their mistakes than the sundered a lot of the time. Like the sundered, they too had their own battles to fight. Also like the sundered, many of these battles weren't of a physical nature. Their fighting probably would never have stopped either.

That aside, how do you figure the second set of sacrifices was a mistake? The planet was quite literally no longer capable of supporting life. Were it not for the second sacrifice to Zodiark, it would've remained a barren wasteland all but devoid of life. In time, even the remaining Ancients (of which the game leads us to believe were only the Amaurotines, all others beyond it having apparently already died) would've succumbed to the near-literal hellscape the environment had become. More than merely fixing the world, it was through the second set of sacrifices that new life was sown upon it.

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I really don’t understand this notion the ancients didn’t know suffering until the final days when we have so much proof it isn’t true.

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Originally Posted by sidurgu-12

..... Anyways, on topic.

we do stop fighting. or at least physically. Every time we pick up a fishing poll or a smithing hammer the fight temporarily stops and we enjoy the peace and happiness weve been striving for.

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I don't know, man. The WoL trying to catch some of those legendary fish is a harder battle than most of the Primals or other world-ending threats. Maybe fighting is the real vacation.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I really don’t understand this notion the ancients didn’t know suffering until the final days when we have so much proof it isn’t true.

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Do we? The entire Elpis flower sequence starting with its introduction and random shining during early parts of EW MSQ, is a set up that pays off when Hermis comments that it doesn't shine much different colors here or anywhere on Etherys. This gives us information that Ancients while not emotionless just don't experience much strong or varied emotions. This is also reinforced with Emmet's comments that he just can't understand the sadness Hermis feels. It was "pang of sadness" as he put it, then you carry on. Sure there where suffering individuals, but general culture was telling them how they should or should not feel in different situations (this was known from ShB Amaurot shades).

The main attribute of Ancient society is Mask. Rather on the nose metaphor for society that hides their true feelings all the time, is it not?

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Originally Posted by Pofruin

Do we? The entire Elpis flower sequence starting with its introduction and random shining during early parts of EW MSQ, is a set up that pays off when Hermis comments that it doesn't shine much different colors here or anywhere on Etherys. This gives us information that Ancients while not emotionless just don't experience much strong or varied emotions. This is also reinforced with Emmet's comments that he just can't understand the sadness Hermis feels. It was "pang of sadness" as he put it, then you carry on. Sure there where suffering individuals, but general culture was telling them how they should or should not feel in different situations (this was known from ShB Amaurot shades).

The main attribute of Ancient society is Mask. Rather on the nose metaphor for society that hides their true feelings all the time, is it not?

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Yes we do, you just answered it yourself. There were suffering people. We see this if you do the side quests in Elpis or even Pandaemonium with Lahabrea and Erich. Suffering was not some foreign concept. We see people who have the same qualms as Hermes however they’re able to work past it. Considering the sadness we’ve seen Elidibus exhibit, or anger that Emet does, there isn’t much that supports them as being devoid of most emotion. If anything they’re just better at keeping it in check than sundered races are.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Yes we do, you just answered it yourself. There were suffering people. We see this if you do the side quests in Elpis or even Pandaemonium with Lahabrea and Erich. Suffering was not some foreign concept. We see people who have the same qualms as Hermes however they’re able to work past it. Considering the sadness we’ve seen Elidibus exhibit, or anger that Emet does, there isn’t much that supports them as being devoid of most emotion. If anything they’re just better at keeping it in check than sundered races are.

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I rather specifically mentioned them to not be emotionless, did I not? My point is not the lack of emotions but intensity of them. Coming up to clinically depressed person and telling him you know how it feels you also feel sad once in a while is bit delusional (and arsholish but thats not here nor there). The Ancient suffering is incomparable to Despair, for once they did experience it it broke them. (Case in point Emet in Elpis and Emet in ShB).

I do not discount Ancient capacity to feel. Rather their use of Creation magic afforded them so much comfort that anything more than minor inconveniences are uncommon. One could argue that Convocation grade Ancients are more emotionally resilient due to stress of their position. And they where significantly more resilient during Final Days also. But rank and file? Not so much.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

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In fairness, you've done a respectable job of sticking to the topic, which relates to suffering and resilience. Frustrations were high because the anti-Venat thinktank came in to take out their narcissistic aggression on forum posters, but they'll get bored soon enough.

In any case, I think what you're describing about 'heroes' pervades our own history as well. Great discoveries are often chalked up to one legendary influential individual, when human achievements are almost universally a collaborative effort. More often than not, what we remember is not the individual themselves and their actual struggles, but a mythic retelling of those events that they could never hope to live up to. But it's the unsung trials that are the most important ones. History may never remember your personal struggles or growth, but that's not to say that it wasn't important at the time.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Frustrations were high because the anti-Venat thinktank came in to take out their narcissistic aggression on forum posters, but they'll get bored soon enough.

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I think that comments such as this are incredibly disingenuous. That you seem to believe that there's some hive mind conspiracy against Venat is very telling. Especially when nobody is obligated to like her or approve of her actions.

I'd be much more inclined to attribute 'narcissistic aggression' to the very same posters who are so obsessed with defending their fictional 'benevolent mother' figure that they resort to horrific and bizarre claims that if someone dislikes Venat, it is due to sexism.

This, of course, is not even accounting for the simple fact that many of the same posters now crying foul about Venat being criticised spent much of their time around these parts consistently criticising the characters that they themselves happened to dislike.

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Originally Posted by Pofruin

I rather specifically mentioned them to not be emotionless, did I not? My point is not the lack of emotions but intensity of them. Coming up to clinically depressed person and telling him you know how it feels you also feel sad once in a while is bit delusional (and arsholish but thats not here nor there). The Ancient suffering is incomparable to Despair, for once they did experience it it broke them. (Case in point Emet in Elpis and Emet in ShB).

I do not discount Ancient capacity to feel. Rather their use of Creation magic afforded them so much comfort that anything more than minor inconveniences are uncommon. One could argue that Convocation grade Ancients are more emotionally resilient due to stress of their position. And they where significantly more resilient during Final Days also. But rank and file? Not so much.

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While they did have comfort, we're shown time and time again that comfort does not buy happiness. Look at Erich with Pandemonium for example. He's clearly suffering, clearly in grief over his mother and the distancing from his father. It's very akin to how normal everyday people feel in situations like that,and while this is speculation, we will most likely learn that Lahabrea too is grieving for his wife. We see the despair break anyone it touches. Look at Thavnair and Garlemald for example. Even Fordola could hardly escape it. This is a bit away from my overall point though. I was merely giving my thoughts because another poster claimed they spent so long without any kind of suffering when we know factually this isnt the case.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

In fairness, you've done a respectable job of sticking to the topic, which relates to suffering and resilience. Frustrations were high because the anti-Venat thinktank came in to take out their narcissistic aggression on forum posters, but they'll get bored soon enough.

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I'd really rather we not namecall or insinuate things. It's childish and detrimental to the goal of the forums.