The trouble with telling tanks W2W pulls are a mandatory norm.

I mined warrior a lot in 5.x, recently switched to whm. On expert roulette if tank isn't going wall to wall I just do it myself. I can get a holy off between each heal no prob. Whm tank ftw

I feel like I'm missing out on a sub-culture within this game, because I've never seen someone be suicidal and pull more then their current toolkit can handle more then once without stopping and going; "oh, that's right, I can't do that here, re-adjust."

Perhaps I'm blessed with rosy-tinted glasses. xD

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Originally Posted by Herebedragons

My point was, you can't set a standard for your average DF run using those runs that were planned and probably practiced beforehand.

Expert might be easy right now, but some dungeons that used to be in that roulette are tricky for W2W. Especially if you're playing a more squishy tank and get a healer who can't keep up with you.

Now I'm gonna stop talking about this because apparently OP is displeased with us.

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I'm not displeased, just a little frustrated that no matter how people try to frame this debate it always gets dragged into discussing expert roulette, which has been traditionally W2W since the beginning of the game. I completely agree with your point by the way, using such a niche example to run without a healer isn't a good argument. The issue I wanted to discuss was pressuring learning tanks into a playstyle they are not ready for because players are impatient to finish a roulette. Level sync'd roulette players can indeed pull big in all dungeons, but if you've just hit level 41 and enter Stone Vigil for the first time for the love of all that is holy do not try to W2W pull. You get sync'd to 43 there, so even sync'd you need experience to know what you can and can't pull.

The mantra, that I've seen in this thread many times, is you can pull big in every dungeon simply isn't true in all circumstances. By parroting it constantly on the forums, reddit etc.. it gives new players the mistaken idea that it's expected of tanks, intimidating many into not even trying out tanking and giving others the idea that if they do wipe because they W2W pulled it's obviously everyone else's fault.

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

Aaaaaaaaaaand we're back to talking about expert roulette again, of the hundred or so dungeons in this game we insist on focusing on the easiest two and using them to benchmark. How hard can it be to understand the fundamental difference between content we out gear by 40 ilevels or more and leveling dungeons where players are minimum ilevel?

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It isn't just Expert though. Leveling dungeons are also mostly a joke. You're not going to have a Warrior solo-ing them per se, but they aren't remotely hard. So let me be more specific, every single 50/60/70/80 and virtually all leveling should be mass pulled for the same reason as Expert: they're all piss easy. The sole exception are low level ARR dungeon like I mentioned in a previous post or the occasional outliner like Bardam's Mettle or Holminster Switch. And in the case of the latter, it's only really the second pull that can be a bit spicy, though it honestly isn't too much. So of the "hundred or so dungeons," you should be pulling everything. Or at least double pulling. Otherwise, you're basically a DPS.

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Originally Posted by Herebedragons

My point was, you can't set a standard for your average DF run using those runs that were planned and probably practiced beforehand.

Expert might be easy right now, but some dungeons that used to be in that roulette are tricky for W2W. Especially if you're playing a more squishy tank and get a healer who can't keep up with you.

Now I'm gonna stop talking about this because apparently OP is displeased with us.

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No, they aren't. The only "tricky" part about wall pulling is if you attempt super pulls. Pulling every single mob in Bardam's to the three statues before the first boss; spawning the gorilla early in Qitana or do the 12-15 mob pull in Mt. Gulg. These are tricky pulls to handle simply due to the sheer outgoing damage. There has not been a single Expert dungeon except for pre-nerf Baelsar's Wall where wall pulling has every been challenging.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

It isn't just Expert though. Leveling dungeons are also mostly a joke. You're not going to have a Warrior solo-ing them per se, but they aren't remotely hard. So let me be more specific, every single 50/60/70/80 and virtually all leveling should be mass pulled for the same reason as Expert: they're all piss easy. The sole exception are low level ARR dungeon like I mentioned in a previous post or the occasional outliner like Bardam's Mettle or Holminster Switch. And in the case of the latter, it's only really the second pull that can be a bit spicy, though it honestly isn't too much. So of the "hundred or so dungeons," you should be pulling everything. Or at least double pulling. Otherwise, you're basically a DPS.

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To be fair, I did mention that "one or two packs is usually enough, depending on the dungeon"
Encouraging a tank to pull two packs is fine, insisting they W2W pull, isn't.

Also, the vast majority of 50/60/70/80 are just previous expert dungeons. The questionable bit really is the leveling dungeons, there are usually 1 or 2 in each expansion that punch harder, and plenty in ARR, where tanks do most of their learning.

If w2w wasn't intended then there would be more artificial barriers. /Thread

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

No, they aren't. The only "tricky" part about wall pulling is if you attempt super pulls. Pulling every single mob in Bardam's to the three statues before the first boss; spawning the gorilla early in Qitana or do the 12-15 mob pull in Mt. Gulg. These are tricky pulls to handle simply due to the sheer outgoing damage. There has not been a single Expert dungeon except for pre-nerf Baelsar's Wall where wall pulling has every been challenging.

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Well, I suppose all I can say at this point is "congratulations on being a better tank than I am".

Not sure why I expected anything else on the forums.

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Originally Posted by DinahDemiurge

If w2w wasn't intended then there would be more artificial barriers. /Thread

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That's why every dungeons, including expert, are now two-three packs then wall U_U.

The devs know their playerbase well. If they make the dungeons arr style, there would be more fighting within the community since some people want the tank to w2w pull no matter what.

Why not use jp style? Single pull or whatever the group is comfortable of for leveling dungeons. W2w pull for expert, unless someone is really bad.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

The bar is you're literally useless in Expert dungeon if you're pulling small. It's basic mathematics. The outgoing damage is so low, DPS and healers can comfortably survive pulling three mobs. At that point, you're no longer a tank but a gimped DPS. Hence why the standard practice in DF is pulling everything. Or at least pulling two packs bare minimum.

Ironically, you say to start a PF but in the case of majority rule, it's someone who prefers small pulls who should be creating PF since they're largely in the minority. Furthermore, with the advent of Trusts, you have a system tailor made for players who prefer going at their own pace. If Trusts take too long, well, there's a reason people still largely prefer DF. And I do play tanks, primarily so I never have to worry about pull sizes.

At the end of the day, if the dev team wants players to stop with the "speed run every dungeon" mentality. They need to actually make trash mobs threatening. People didn't decide to randomly speed run dungeons. They realized how laughably easy most are and adjusted accordingly.

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There is no bar and no one is "literally useless" if the pulls are small. Tank is still holding aggro and taking mitigated damage; Healer is still healing more efficiently than any other class can; the dungeon is still getting completed. Roles not being necessary for small pulls isn't the same as roles being useless.

Also, a majority rules case is what vote kick exists for. The entire point is that the group doesn't ever have to concede to one person's point of view, or one set of arbitrary rules. If you're defaulting to the majority in each individual case that's fine. Saying single pulling doesn't belong in high level content is just self-important nonsense, though. Not your job or your place to decide how everyone else plays.

If you're talking majority rules in general, however, I'd say the majority of players don't care either way and will just roll with whatever is happening. People like you with "strong opinions" on small pulls are generally just a loud minority, hanging out on the forums where they'll get affirmations from similarly dramatic people.

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Originally Posted by DinahDemiurge

If w2w wasn't intended then there would be more artificial barriers. /Thread

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I think solutions like that are more akin to locking away the cookie jar. They expect players to show some consideration and teamplay, and only when enough players show they can't, developers will intervene and make it impossible. Instead of pushing boundaries, I'd sooner ask myself: what is expected of me here? In cases where you spend your time with others where the goal is to have relaxing fun together, you respect the wishes of the others as well. This does seem the point of playing FF14 specifically, Yoshida is an obvious crusader for having a fun time over maximum efficiency and I love him for it. Not saying the two can't go hand in hand but I'd argue that that is something more easily and logically accomplished with people you know, not strangers.