If you thought the healer DPS debate would change with the change...

while i can see there is no much change with "healer dps" debate. i think i see more healer actually more focus on healing nowadays, not sure because the change or because so many sprouts this day.

but one thing i really hate is why AST gravity is only 130 potency? while WHM holy is 150?
- AST gravity has no additional effect like WHM stun but it yield less potency?
- AST gravity take 100 more MP than WHM holy
- WHM can just press holy while his target still on tank (to prepare for heal), while AST need to target enemy first

kinda a bit unfair dont you think?

I have run the two post-MSQ level 80 dungeons only once each. In both, to my chagrin, after I said I was new, the tanks just charged forward and did big pulls without saying anything. We didn't say much, but I guess we were back to business as usual, and it was okay; healers adjust.

DPS-wise it was just like expert roulettes of yore. The tanks did take a massive amount of damage, perhaps because of iLevel, but it wasn't difficult to heal. I still spent the vast majority of the time doing Art of War and Broil III. There was just no reason not to except worrying about the MP refresh cooldown.

The Shadowbringers healing reform didn't make me focus on healing more. It barely made things more difficult, likely only at the expense of newly learning healers. But it made the damage boring. The game design is still built to encourage it, unless you want to sit around doing nothing.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

TLDR: Shockingly, we still expect players not to idle in combat.

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This. There is still way too much time we would stand around doing nothing.

1st rule of playing a caster:
ABC - Always Be Casting.

If no healing is required, that means mashing dat DPS button till you fall asleep.

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Originally Posted by gumas

kinda a bit unfair dont you think?

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Can I buff a groups DPS?
No I can't, that's why I get a slightly higher personal DPS.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

The thing you did not catch on the thread is that OP is complaining about MP usage when he DPS and that if something get messed up he wont be able to heal or raise someone because of OOM, which is really a case in new content where mobs hits like mad and bosses have mechanics which 50% of people fail to execute or dodge.

I am far better with healer who heals and rarely push dps button than i do with healers who dps and just let me bite the mud. With good DPS and healer who keeps my heath bar above 60-70% i could pull everything in sight and make it still working.
But it just cant works if dps are so bad that it takes ages to kill the pull and we eventually wipe because healer and me used everything.

DPS average out at 10k DPS in dungeons, 20k DPS for both while healer is around 3-6k.

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... which implies poor MP management. Even the much maligned AST primarily suffers in huge pulls, and I would attribute that more towards how weak their healing kit. Regardless, I never quoted the OP. I quoted you. Why you're even mentioning the OP when my entire response focused on your shifting of the blame onto DPS, I don't know. At this point, you're simply Strawmanning.

As for mobs themselves. I have tanked every single dungeon and mass pulled each one of them. Most hit like wet noodles if you rotate CDs properly. There are a few dangerous pulls but I'd argue Stormblood had worse.

I would rather a healer who does both. Not a difficult require considering the dungeons don't hit very hard. That being said, I'm not going to scuff at a healer trying to juggle their heals and DPS. The effort alone is all I ask. Even just a couple Holy casts until you're more comfortable is something. It's the healers who barely even look at their DPS abilities or outright refuse to touch them I take umbrage with. As stated, no healer appreciates tanks who don't pop their cooldowns properly. Well, the feeling is mutual from tanks and DPS. We also do not appreciate being expected to use everything in our arsenal while you sit and watch Netflix.

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

Leeching off their work? Lets see how much work they get done without a healer keeping them on their feet. The healer is working to keep the party alive to complete the dungeon, it is the sole reason we are there. Without a healer the tank and DPS would not make it far.

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I mean, if the tank and DPS have a CPM (Cast Per Minute) of 95-99% and the healer has 50%. What else would you call them? They literally contributed half the work yet received equal reward.

And I've tanked dungeons without a healer before. Prior to Shadowbringers, it was laughably easy given how much Warrior and Dark Knight healed for on a mass pull. With the current dungeons, you'd have to pull smaller but it's very doable. Nevertheless, we again circle back to why is it okay for healers to sit around waiting but isn't for tanks or DPS? If things have gone awry and they actually need to conserve MP because the DPS were dumb, then we have entirely different story. This isn't usually the case with these arguments though. More often than not, you have some healers who simply don't believe they should have to deal damage.

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Originally Posted by Isala

No joke, I actually had a WAR and a DRG duo the final boss of Akademia from about 75% when the healer got deleted. There's a certain brand of healers who like to have the "You can't do anything without me" mentality, and even as a healer myself, I know that's wrong. I am there to do one very simple job, as is everyone else. And that is to clear the instances as efficiently as I can. Which means doing more than just the basics of your class, regardless of role. To do otherwise is disrespectful to the other players in your group.

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This happened when my BFF and I were leveling. We were saddled with a SCH who only Physick'd (I'm serious) and died repeatedly to the last boss of Holminster Switch. On our second (or was it third?) attempt, she and I wound up solo-ing him from 25%-ish when the SCH died yet again. She even lived the stack with just me because I tank LB2'd :D

Best part? The SCH got salty because I called them out for running away with the stack marker and killing themselves. Their excuse? "I took it south like a healer should." What?! Seriously. What?!

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Originally Posted by TwistedTea

There doesn't seem to be any accountability for DPS in FFXIV.

Even without ACT,by glancing at the party enemity table, it's pretty obvious to see when DPS is subpar.

For example:
When you're on WHM running 50-70 content. The parts which don't require healing and you're going full on DPS(No regen ticking/nada). Then you glance over at the party table and see that both healers are just below the MT in aggro.

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Looking at the enmity bars has never been a good way to judge damage. Anyone who was using that system and thinking it was effective was wrong.

Back in 4.0, we had enmity dumps and quellers, designed specifically to reduce the aggro of jobs. On jobs that dealt high damage (BLM, MNK), they could still be top DPS even if their enmity was lower due to just actively rotating these tools (to prevent them from ripping hate). Jobs that had lower personal damage but higher burst with no way to quell their enmity (BRD) could “appear” to be high in damage because they would ride the tank’s backside until they were able to hit Refresh/Tactician—but BRD should never be the top damage dealer outside of an opening burst. And even then, some jobs could surpass them—but since they could pop Diversion and quell their aggro, BRD would still “appear” to be higher because their enmity would be so high: a BRD’s opener was 100% unmitigated aggro where as other DPS could pop Diversion during theirs.

Conversely, a subpar DPS could “appear” to be the highest DPS (by being #2 on aggro), but, in actuality be pulling less than the tanks because they aren’t popping Diversion/Refresh/Tactician/Lucid Dreaming. With regards to healers, I could Cure III Thundergod Cid’s Cleansing Strike on WHM and shoot up to top of the enmity charts. But I would not be top DPS. Nor should I be.

Looking at the enmity bar is a terrible way to judge damage. The easiest way to judge damage without the use of certain programs is by how slowly things are dying. If things are dying too slow, it’s safer to say that damage sucks versus “that DPS is number 4 on the aggro list—he must suck”.

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

Leeching off their work? Lets see how much work they get done without a healer keeping them on their feet. The healer is working to keep the party alive to complete the dungeon, it is the sole reason we are there. Without a healer the tank and DPS would not make it far.

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I mean, in all fairness, I did the Ghimlyt Dark without a healer (or even a RDM). The entire dungeon. I’ve also been in dungeons where we had a healer disconnect or die, and we managed until they came back or we killed a boss. Completing content without a healer is not always impossible. Especially if you know how to dodge and utilize your toolkit (Second Wind, smart usage of Curing Waltz—I’ve actually Closed Position the tank after healers have bit the dust lately so that I can move in to stack on them for a quick Curing Waltz when its safe to do so).

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Originally Posted by BatLW

Healer: Heal. We don't need you to DPS. As soon as a party needs Healer DPS, their DPS and Tank suck monkey butts. With the DPS Buff to Tanks and the simplification of Skillsets everyone should be able to stick to their roles.

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Sorry, but no. AST is averaging ~4,000 DPS. SCH is slightly higher (around ~5,000), and WHMs have broken ~7,000 DPS. If you are standing around doing less than 1,000 damage, you are denying your group roughly 3,000 to 6,000 in raid damage. I’d rather have a healer that contributes to damage while also healing as needed as opposed to one that idles for 80% of the fight and does 500 DPS. Healers are not so special that they get to ignore half of their toolkit while the other two roles are expected to use the entirety of theirs.

Also, your “sticking to their roles” reasoning sort of falls flat when it comes to WHM. The developers gave them a 900 potency (with dropoff) AOE skill at level 74. Clearly, they didn’t expect WHM to deal damage after giving them a skill like that.

Healer: Heal. We don't need you to DPS. As soon as a party needs Healer DPS, their DPS and Tank suck monkey butts. With the DPS Buff to Tanks and the simplification of Skillsets everyone should be able to stick to their roles.

The only problem I’ve run into in the early 70s dungeons is just tanks who mass pull but don’t use CDs, you will be spamming heals for your life with those types but with a decent tank you can easy pop some stuff and spam dps I would say mp management is much easer now even tho AST will forever be thirsty for mp lol

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

The only problem I’ve run into in the early 70s dungeons is just tanks who mass pull but don’t use CDs, you will be spamming heals for your life with those types but with a decent tank you can easy pop some stuff and spam dps I would say mp management is much easer now even tho AST will forever be thirsty for mp lol

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That's why I have no problem if the Heal has a second to breathe without doing DPS. As a Maintank myself and occasional DPS I completely get what bullshit is happening and what Healer has to suffer through - I support ANYTHING that makes the classes more attractive to play and reduce waiting times.

At the end of the day the numbers and facts don't lie. If a WHM can put out 7k DPS while keeping the party alive with relative ease, then they're miles above healers that don't DPS. You can argue about playstyle and comfort zones all you want, but only you can do something about it because it's literally a case of "git gud".

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Can I buff a groups DPS?
No I can't, that's why I get a slightly higher personal DPS.

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yeah buff group dps.... for 6%... with 180s CD

900 potency not enough to you? + assize? our ogcd is only a 150 potency and thats waiting for 10s first + 60s CD
dozen of instant heal and instant aoe heal?
2 oh shit ogcd heal?
a wing that increase your heal for 20% AND decrease damage for 10% for whole party

AND YOU CAN MOVE AROUND DO OTHER STUFF WHILE OURS STUCK IN A BUBBLE THAT BURST THE MOMENT WE TOOK A SINGLE STEP.

yeah, very fair