[dev 1032] What's wrong with job/subjob again?

So basically the complaints seem to be;
Everyone is going to equip the same abilities on every job, every time.

And, the solution being argued for is;
We need to make sure that everyone can only equip the same abilities on the same job, every time.

You offer a solution that impacts everyone's ability to enjoy this game (don't forget DoL and DoH who also make use of this system), but the complaint is based on the faulty assumption that everyone plays the same way.

I have decided I don't want to level PUG and ARC on this character. I don't care if the current popular builds require abilities from either of those jobs. I don't want to level them. I might not be as awesome as the next guy, but I am playing the way I want and I'm having fun with it. It is indeed possible to put restrictions on yourself without hindering your ability to enjoy the game, but only if your enjoyment isn't tied up with being top rank on your server or being able to clobber stuff as fast as the next guy.

And if it is tied up in that stuff, then go look at the top ranked guy and level up everything the same way he has. Nothing stopping you from doing that either.

But instead it seems some of you care so much about how everyone else is playing that you'd insist on bringing back the pigeon-hole system FFXI has, where every job has to fit neatly in its slot to get anything done, and some jobs are left out entirely.

Where's the fun in that?

And that's the beauty of the system. While I would recommend you level Pug for Second Wind and Taunt/Accomplice, it's not entirely necessary. No one's going to boot you from a party for not having them, mainly because there's no way for them to know you're not using them off the bat. With Job/Subjob in place, you have to level whatever the standard sub is for your main or you're not going to get a spot in groups.

The game is fine, the system is fine, everything is fine so why the hell is ffxiv is free to play? Bring old system back already.

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Originally Posted by Reika

Well said. +1

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This one is not directed to Reika. This one is directed to the moderator's of this forum. If you're going to edit my own posts because it didn't relate to the topic, then can you please remove these two worded posts that say absolutely nothing to pursue this topic? Come on.....

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Are you guys serious? Every class had several viable subjobs for many different situations. Nobody would want a SAM/SMN because that's garbage and makes no sense, but SAM/WAR SAM/THF SAM/RNG SAM/NIN SAM/DRG and SAM/DNC were all great and each gave Samurai a completely different playstyle. Would you want a CON who insisted on tanking or have him cure/nuke instead?

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What Demecia is trying to say here is that there were plenty of different sub jobs to choose from to complete certain obstacles. For solo work on Samurai(Or Monk) I would use SAM/DNC(Or MNK/DNC). With their rate of TP gain it was the best possible sub job to allow me to farm at my maximum performance with little to no downtime on resting. Every job could've been used as a sub job on every class, but it wasn't because it did little to nothing to improve your results and hence became useless.

You can not say that the community shunned people for choosing war/smn because they didn't. It was the people who used common sense over which jobs were considered proper. The only time you seen people sub the wrong job was when they were either new to the game and didn't know of the best possible combinations, or made an error when selecting a sub or forgot to change subs. I remember going to sky as sam/blm because I changed to /blm to warp from Bastok to Aht Urhgan. Arcell if you ever played long enough to be in endgame, you never once seen anyone trying to get into a linkshell as a rng/smn. Using this as a counter-argument in your rebutal is like me trying to talk about WoW or Rift. I haven't played them long enough to comment on it, so I don't.

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Well the purpose of a subjob was to either boost your main job's strength, compensate for its weakness, or use its strengths to change its role in a group. It wasn't meant to be used to do everything you want in one package but even though a damage dealing class class was always gonna be a DD, you could switch to THF sub and focus on enmity control/burst damage, switch to DNC sub to focus on TP fueled healing, or switch to WAR sub for pure damage and emergency provokes. Every MMO has roles that need to be filled. It's a group effort. Of course, if you had a job combination that doesn't help the group, why would they want you?

FFXIV is no different in that sense. The only difference is that instead of having a collection of -UNIQUE- jobs that can each fill several roles in a group by using different subjobs, you have a few DDs whose only difference is the weapon they use (save for a handful of class specific abilities), mages with no defined roles, and one standard tank. You aren't gonna see tanking archers, main healing gladiators, or melee DD mages (they can't even do that if they wanted to because everyone is bound to using one weapon). You would shun any one of those just like an FFXI player would shun a BLM/MNK.

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This also is a great example by Demecia regarding his opinion.

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Currently there are 3 roles mages can fill: Support, Damage and Enfeeblement.

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This one is from Arcell. Now I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong. You're right, but right now there is little to few differences to which one of these roles either of the two can perform adamantly. There might be a slight difference, but as far as performing roles? Why have two different classes if they can both perform them with only slight consequences? This should be simple. Everything in life has a role to do. A Pikeman in a mid-evil army couldn't fire an arrow while halting the onslaught of the calvary riders.

Each one of the three examples you said; Support, Damage, Enfeeblement. They're all different roles. That's why you seen three different jobs in XI.

Support: White Mage
Damage: Black Mage
Enfeeblement: Red Mage

I said before that I didn't want the sub job system to be implemented back into the game, but with the way you completely disregard anything that supports class restrictions to make a character feel more unique.......I'm going to go ahead and say bring back the sub job feature. If you will not admit that abilities could be revisions to stop the overpowering of it's role from others, then yes I want a FFXI-2. This isn't a single-player experience. I'm/We're not asking for a complete overhaul of everything. Just some things to be re-evaluated.

You say you want Intimidation to be accessed by your Pugilist? Sub Job system. You want that Archer ability that I'm not going to scroll up to find? Sub Job system. If you don't want the sub job system, then let SE do their job so they can establish a bigger crowd base to play the game together. Everyone is going to make some sacrifices, so don't feel like you're the only one getting the shaft. I'm sure they're going to implement something I'd rather not care for.

P.S. By the way, Reika. I'm currently one of the many who not only play FFXIV right now, but still FFXI. How about you be quiet about telling people what to do when you've absolutely nothing to talk about? You going to tell me to go back to FF7 because I didn't like the storyline of FF8? Too bad, so sad.

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Originally Posted by Chione

But instead it seems some of you care so much about how everyone else is playing that you'd insist on bringing back the pigeon-hole system FFXI has, where every job has to fit neatly in its slot to get anything done, and some jobs are left out entirely.

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How about you name me one job that was completely left out? You've no idea what you're talking about. Every job in FFXI had a role to accomplish. That role made it an important part of the gameplay. Like I said; An army is made up of different categories of infantry with different roles to accomplish. They all don't do every role.

The game being free to play currently has nothing to do with the addition of job/subjob. The game was released way too early and the team behind it wasn't doing a good enough job, it's as simple as that. The game deserves better than job/subjob and to be honest it does deserve better than the current system. I believe Yoshida and the new team can create something far better than both and that's what the game needs.

Edit: Also I never said I'm completely against restrictions and disregard everything relating to them. I've said countless times that I'm actually in favor of some additional restrictions but nothing as harsh as job/subjob.

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Originally Posted by Chione

So basically the complaints seem to be;
Everyone is going to equip the same abilities on every job, every time.

And, the solution being argued for is;
We need to make sure that everyone can only equip the same abilities on the same job, every time.

You offer a solution that impacts everyone's ability to enjoy this game (don't forget DoL and DoH who also make use of this system), but the complaint is based on the faulty assumption that everyone plays the same way.

I have decided I don't want to level PUG and ARC on this character. I don't care if the current popular builds require abilities from either of those jobs. I don't want to level them. I might not be as awesome as the next guy, but I am playing the way I want and I'm having fun with it. It is indeed possible to put restrictions on yourself without hindering your ability to enjoy the game, but only if your enjoyment isn't tied up with being top rank on your server or being able to clobber stuff as fast as the next guy.

And if it is tied up in that stuff, then go look at the top ranked guy and level up everything the same way he has. Nothing stopping you from doing that either.

But instead it seems some of you care so much about how everyone else is playing that you'd insist on bringing back the pigeon-hole system FFXI has, where every job has to fit neatly in its slot to get anything done, and some jobs are left out entirely.

Where's the fun in that?

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It should be pretty obvious as evidenced by the pro-subjob section that you're not allowed to enjoy things ever.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

I made a comment last night about this.

I love the armory system and don't want to see it pigeon-holed into strict class roles again.

What I would like to see though is a FF: Tactics style system added. The big problem right now is that you can equip any skill on any class, taking away part of the uniqueness. In Tactics, you could learn any skill you wanted, but certain classes could only equip certain types of skills (with the exception of Squire I believe). They should do this with FFXIV.

For example: Cure could be equipped by any class. However, Cure II+ could only be equipped by Mage classes and Gladiator (to make a Paladin-type class or similar).

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Which Final Fantasy Tactics games have you played? Definately not square enix ones... The tactics games are just like XI in which you choose a subjob.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

The game being free to play currently has nothing to do with the addition of job/subjob. The game was released way too early and the team behind it wasn't doing a good enough job, it's as simple as that. The game deserves better than job/subjob and to be honest it does deserve better than the current system. I believe Yoshida and the new team can create something far better than both and that's what the game needs.

Edit: Also I never said I'm completely against restrictions and disregard everything relating to them. I've said countless times that I'm actually in favor of some additional restrictions but nothing as harsh as job/subjob.

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It's been +6months since the "release too early" concept. We are still bleeding profusely. Something far better has to be more then a figment of ones imagination at this point.

FF14 was suppose to be "far better" when the hype was kicking in as well.

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

How about you name me one job that was completely left out? You've no idea what you're talking about. Every job in FFXI had a role to accomplish. That role made it an important part of the gameplay. Like I said; An army is made up of different categories of infantry with different roles to accomplish. They all don't do every role.

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Gladly. Once the melee burn mentality began, black mages stopped being able to get into exp parties. Half their spells and abilities were wasted (elemental debuffs, magic bursting) and they had to more or less solo their way to the top because although no one wanted them for exp parties, they sure as heck wanted them for endgame.

There's one, but I'll give you another. In the same boat was the noble paladin. Once blink-tanking became the popular way to do exp parties, paladins started getting left out in the cold - but as soon as they got big enough for end game, people needed them again.

Not to mention how after the 2-handed patch, monks started being picked last to dragoon and samurai who became the new heavy hitting DDs. Warriors had to drop their one handed axes for two handers. Invites as a thief stopped coming around 40 or so - whenever it became too much of a bother to lineup for SA/TA. All because if you didn't have things just so or didn't do enough damage in a melee, you weren't going to get an invite to a exp party.

Anyone who mained any of these jobs (especially prior to the level sync addition) probably felt very left out.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I believe I every idea of what I'm talking about because I actually still play FFXI - I still deal with that system and all the restrictions you are in favor of. Granted, I play it nowhere near as much as XIV these days, but that's because I have more fun here.

Maybe you've forgotten how just about everyone had to have ninja leveled for sub job, especially for events; Even the white mages. Even the bards. Black mages needed it for solo up till 51. You say an army is made up of different roles. Different ways of doing things. And yet...

It seems to me the system in FFXIV would support your army argument far better than the system FFXI had. Everyone here can fill whatever role they want to build for themselves. If I enjoyed having that role decided for me by popular exp trends, as well as what skills to use on it, I'd be playing FFXI a lot more than I am right now.