Concerns about SCH.

[Aaralyn]

As I have already said. I can't think of any spell in the game that has 2 different formula's. So they would have to break the -50 ENM cap for WHM. Because, as I have already said, no amount of tranquil heart would balance things, as it would likely effect Cure IV for WHMs as well. That would be broken.

[Sotek]

How would Cure IV with reduced hate be anymore broken than Cure V? As it is WHM will never pull hate, increasing its ability to not gain hate would effectively do nothing, while allowing SCH to gain access to an emergency Cure spell with very little effort on the programmers side. An alternative like a HOT spell would require a lot of balancing and testing, not to mention it doesn't even fill the slot of an emergency cure like the Cure V I'm suggestion. HOT would be something you keep on someone full time and would probably require less effort than "Cure V > Cure VI" spam.

Tranquil Heart is awful if that's there solution (in which case we are getting Cure V anyway), a trait that just ignores -enmity altogether and halves (or whatever) the enmity gain of Cure spells would be ideal or hell, why can't they just give Cure V two formulas? Either is still far easier than producing a whole new spell.

[Aaralyn]

I assume one spell can't have two different formula's because I have yet to see it, that I can recall. Given that, maybe it's restricted by mechanics. I don't know.

Saying WHM never pull hate is a bit of a stretch. Maybe it's just the way my LS does things that cause DD's enmity to decay through getting hit, but me and my friend pull hate on WHM and end up tanking some NMs for about a minute or 2 sometimes. That's at -50 ENM cap. The only reason we are pulling hate is because we do still use Cure IV. A WHM should never wait for a DD to take enough damage to use just V and VI.

[Raksha]

I assume one spell can't have two different formula's because I have yet to see it, that I can recall. Given that, maybe it's restricted by mechanics. I don't know.

It wouldn't have to have to have 2 formulas per se.

(spell = cure5)
[cure = 800hp]
<WHM?>
[Enmity = 300]
<SCH?>
[Enmity = 600]
(/spell)

[Aaralyn]

It wouldn't have to have to have 2 formulas per se.

(spell = cure5)
[cure = 800hp]
<WHM?>
[Enmity = 300]
<SCH?>
[Enmity = 600]
(/spell)

I don't see how they could do this without giving WHM an extra trait or ability that breaks the -ENM cap, just for Cure V. I'm talking about the formula (maybe that's the wrong word) that makes it so Cure V has fixed enmity. I don't think you can have one Cure V with fixed 300 enmity, and another Cure V with 600 enmity that isn't fixed.

[Raksha]

I don't see how they could do this without giving WHM an extra trait or ability that breaks the -ENM cap, just for Cure V. I'm talking about the formula (maybe that's the wrong word) that makes it so Cure V has fixed enmity. I don't think you can have one Cure V with fixed 300 enmity, and another Cure V with 600 enmity that isn't fixed.

Like I said, you dont need 2 cure 5s

Just have cure5 check wether your mainjob is whm, if so give low enmity, else give high enmity.

It's actually pretty easy to do. If-then statements are some of the first things you learn when studying a programming language.

<if spell="Cure V">

<amount_cured=" MND + Healing skill * cure potency" />

<if $main_job = "WHM">

<Enmity_Gained="400 CE", "700 VE" />

</if>

<else>

<Enmity_Gained="$Cure_enmity_formula" />

</else>

</if>

Crude, I know, but it really isnt that difficult. You could probably learn to do something similar in 1 hour of starting a basic programming language.

(To all of those real coders out there: forgive me!)

[Aaralyn]

Like I said, you dont need 2 cure 5s

Just have cure5 check wether your mainjob is whm, if so give low enmity, else give high enmity.

It's actually pretty easy to do. If-then statements are some of the first things you learn when studying a programming language.

<if spell="Cure V">
<amount_cured=" MND + Healing skill * cure potency" />
<if $main_job = "WHM">
<Enmity_Gained="400 CE", "700 VE" />
</if>
<else>
<Enmity_Gained="$Cure_enmity_formula" />
</else>
</if>

Crude, I know, but it really isnt that difficult. You could probably learn to do something similar in 1 hour if you tried.

Said I was assuming. Can you name a spell that has the example you've written out?

[Raksha]

Said I was assuming. But I'm retarded, so can you name a spell that has the example you've written out?

Utsusemi: Ni.

[Merton9999]

The only reason we are pulling hate is because we do still use Cure IV. A WHM should never wait for a DD to take enough damage to use just V and VI.

Yeah, um, I'm confused by this, but I don't know why because I see the misconception all the time. First, I play WHM a lot more than SCH these days. Mostly because my LS whines like hell if I come SCH instead, and second, because I hate not having Cure V to main heal. So you can guess how I feel about SC getting a Cure V equivalent.

Anyway, Sotek is not off on the never pulling hate statement. I can't think of any time I have ever gotten hate on WHM on anything in Abyssea, unless I am being totally lazy on some crap NM and spamming after their hate reset move because who cares.

Why? I never use any other Cure spell other than Cure V and VI. What I'm confused about is this concept that you have to wait until the math works out to make Cure V cure its full amount, so you use Cure IV instead. This is a necessary requirement outside of Abyssea, where MP is an issue. Inside, the idea of losing out on Cure/MP ratio is meaningless. There is no need to wait until Cure V is numerically justifiable. You just use it anyway, regardless of what value you're comfortable letting the player's HP bar reach. Don't want to wait till they're low enough? Don't! But cast Cure V, not IV. Want to cure someone at 99%? Cast Cure V. It makes no difference if some of the potency is wasted because the MP cost doesn't matter and you gained less hate than you would have had you casted Cure IV. My guess is this is why you are pulling hate and tanking on WHM in Abyssea. That's craziness.

In fact, cast Cure V on your blink tank when their HP is near full to maintain their stoneskin. Oh, and macro in Orison body instead of Facio for that Cure V macro. I see people screaming all the time that Orison body is useless because there is no potency on it. It's because they're stuck in this pre-Abyssea concept that you can only use Cure V if it will cure near its full amount, which is ridiculous with infinite MP.

With that in mind, if we are staying in Abyssea, the "WHM doesn't get hate" thing is absolutely a defining trait. My guess is Tranquil Heart is going to be tested over the next few months to see if removing the enmity property on Cure V will work for RDM, PLD and SCH. They're not going to have to make Cure V use two formulas. They're going to change the spell to have normal hate progression and give WHM more tiers of Tranquil Heart so that WHM Cure V hate is unchanged, and SCH, RDM and PLD get more hate from it than WHM does. This is the exact solution posted by Sotek several pages back. Everyone wins with this. SCH and RDM can be adequate healers without getting so frustrated trying that they wish they came WHM (a problem for me every time) and WHM can stay special with its ability to remain effectively invisible.

Well, idk if PLD will win but w/e. Oh, and those of use who are hoping more for something that boosts SCH's unique abilities will probably look at the August update and say "finally" at Cure V instead of "yay" for something cool. Oh well, I'll be happy with December's coolness and go solo some light skillchains.

[Raksha]

They're going to change the spell to have normal hate progression and give WHM more tiers of Tranquil Heart so that WHM Cure V hate is unchanged, and SCH, RDM and PLD get more hate from it than WHM does.

Unless the highest tiers (the WHM-only ones) break the -50% enmity cap, SCH and RDM WON'T gain more hate from cure5 than WHM. All three jobs will be casting in -50% enmity gear/traits anyway.

The way it is now, WHM with -50% enmity will gain 200CE and 350VE from a cure5 (regardless of amount cured). If they change this to use the same cure enmity formula that cure4 uses, that same WHM will gain (assuming 1000 hp cured) ~323CE and ~1935 VE (we dont have good numbers for lvl90).

Any job which can cast cure5 ( or any cure for that matter) for 1000hp, while wearing -50% enmity, at lvl 90, will gain the same enmity as a WHM (under the tranquil heart model).