How can SE make the Redmage frontline job?

[Rayik]

WHM have always had Hexa and a B+ skill in club. Clearly they were always meant to be superior DPS.

There's a big difference between having a B rating in club with one decent ws, and having swords and daggers at just as high of a rating, with having access to melee-specific gear like Dusk, Scorpion's Harness, Brisk Mask, Tumbler Trunks, Rager's Ledelsen's, etc. Gee, why isn't WHM on that gear?

I see RDM's melee potential as something SE thought was a great idea 8 years ago, and pretty much forgot about, sort of like DRK's Elemental Magic; it's actually a higher rating than even SCH, but you don't see DRK's casting Fire III... All we're saying is to go back and do what RDM was made to do in the first place. Seriously, the RDM is a Fencer(Duelist, Estoquer, look them up), why the hell do other jobs get the Fencer ability and not the fencer job?

Have MAcc be derived from a percentage of total melee Acc while in melee and you wouldn't need to worry about MAcc when front-lining. Could probably do something similar for nukes, but I haven't putzed around with the idea enough.

I made a pair of Magian trial swords, M.Acc +15, MP +75 and MAB +10, INT +9 which are pretty close to at least NQ staff bonuses, but the biggest problem being the loss of subjob spells when subbing something to dual-wield with. If there's already someone else healing in the party, and my spells are landing okay, I can whip out my other MAB sword for a total of MAB +20, INT +18 on top of DMG 53 blades. But again, this is only when I'm not playing as WHM -1. Fortunately, I play with RL friends and family who don't buy into job pigeon-holing politics.

[Duelle]

I see RDM's melee potential as something SE thought was a great idea 8 years ago, and pretty much forgot about, sort of like DRK's Elemental Magic; it's actually a higher rating than even SCH, but you don't see DRK's casting Fire III... All we're saying is to go back and do what RDM was made to do in the first place. Seriously, the RDM is a Fencer(Duelist, Estoquer, look them up), why the hell do other jobs get the Fencer ability and not the fencer job?

Funny thing is I thought maybe the disconnect was that the trait was called something else in Japanese. Turns out it's also called Fencer in the JP version (フェンサー), not something like Ittouryuu (一刀流) or anything like that.

I made a pair of Magian trial swords, M.Acc +15, MP +75 and MAB +10, INT +9 which are pretty close to at least NQ staff bonuses, but the biggest problem being the loss of subjob spells when subbing something to dual-wield with. If there's already someone else healing in the party, and my spells are landing okay, I can whip out my other MAB sword for a total of MAB +20, INT +18 on top of DMG 53 blades. But again, this is only when I'm not playing as WHM -1. Fortunately, I play with RL friends and family who don't buy into job pigeon-holing politics.

Not to devalue the way you do things, because I think it is great to know and play with people who are open-minded, but all that does is circumvent the problem without actually fixing it.

Not to mention that decent melee numbers seem to rely quite a bit on dual wielding with either Double Attack proccing or a multi-hitter (hence why we're stuck with Khanda, Joyeuse and Justice Sword). The solution should also span across all levels, since the weirdness of lacking magic accuracy pops up at around the time those infernal staves enter the game: the early 50s. The big mistake with the level cap increases was that RDM goes from zero to hero in melee just because of CDC without the actual playstyle build-up that other classes experience.

[Rayik]

Not to devalue the way you do things, because I think it is great to know and play with people who are open-minded, but all that does is circumvent the problem without actually fixing it.

Not to mention that decent melee numbers seem to rely quite a bit on dual wielding with either Double Attack proccing or a multi-hitter (hence why we're stuck with Khanda, Joyeuse and Justice Sword). The solution should also span across all levels, since the weirdness of lacking magic accuracy pops up at around the time those infernal staves enter the game: the early 50s. The big mistake with the level cap increases was that RDM goes from zero to hero in melee just because of CDC without the actual playstyle build-up that other classes experience.

Yeah, I agree, but it's something at least. If it were an easy fix, there wouldn't be multiple threads 10+ pages long trying to fix it, lol. I made all those swords to try and play up the "melee/mage hybrid" idea. I could've just went with STR/ATT swords, I still might, but that alone might not be enough to make a difference. Should RDM ever get Sanguine Blade, a combined +20 MAB and +18 INT(2 swords) could be pretty nice, but I'm not holding my breath.

Honestly, if we could get a good sword ws, a lot of my complaints would be relieved. I'm happy with the damage I do with swords, I just would like a ws that actually packs a punch. We get Savage Blade, which is at least a step-up from Fast Blade(what we got at level 5), but still pales to ws's like Vorpal Blade and Sanguine. We get access to Evisceration, but lack any decent daggers, other than Blau Dolche(we still don't get Magian daggers).

What's good for the goose, is good for the gander. If BLU get the same sword ws's a WAR can get, then why not us? BLU already gets better damage spells, enhancing, etc... Toss us a freakin bone!

EDIT: After doing some searching, apparently we get access to Twilight Knife, so there's something at least.

[ManaKing]

I don't really understand why there is so much arguing going on.

All you have to do is look at RDM, SCH, and BLU and you should be able to realize what a RDM is.

The idea that a RDM is supposed to be a back liner was destroyed the second that SCH was made. SCH is the mage version of a RDM. SCH is awesome. It does all the things that people say that RDM should be doing in the back line and it has all the tools to do it effectively. They even have the staff proficiency to get the most out of the elemental staffs that people want RDM to be using. I hope that SCH gets all the buffs and updates that it should get in the future because I love playing in parties with them.

EMPHASIS ON WITH THEM, as in we are in the same party and we are not redundant. SCH takes care of the party and I take care of the SCH. I will refresh and haste them as often as needed and I will haste as many DDs as I can while up front dealing decent damage, debuffing if applicable, and MBing. I will help the SCH heal and if the SCH is ever in danger I will exhaust all of my resources trying to save them, even if it gets me killed in the process. They have Raise II and I don't. They are the better mage. I'll lose less XP than they would and the party won't slow down as much if i am weakened, because I can still buff.

Same thing if I'm in a party with a WHM. We share responsibilities and I do everything I can for them.


Now compare BLU to RDM. BLU > RDM in damage. RDM > BLU in defense. If you DUO a RDM with a BLU, the RDM is the tank and the BLU is the DD. The RDM does decent damage and supports the BLU. The BLU does the majority of the damage. When I duo with my friend I go as RDM/DRK or RDM/PLD and wear a shield. He goes as BLU/THF and uses TA to give me hate and he uses SA to deal extra damage. He deals more damage than I do in all cases, but one. I have access to better tank gear and have some shield skill. I tank better than he does because I'm a generalist and he's a damage specialist.

I'm an Elvaan RDM and he is a hume BLU. If we both do Vorpal Blade, I can out damage him if i pop Last Resort and Soul Eater as /DRK. So what I just said was that every 6 minutes, I can do 1 WS better than him by using all of my sub job abilities which are more sympathetic to multihit WSs than his JAs, which are not. Other than that, he out damages me. Even though I'm the one with superior fast cast, his blue magic is still a lot faster than my elemental magic. He can also use SA on his single hit physical blue magic every minute to deal significantly more damage than I could do with anything other than a lucky Vorpal Blade. He can also self skill chain. We generally fight mobs with mana, he self skill chains gravitation and we both use aspir moves and we both benefit from extra MP.

We both have debuffs. While Duoing, it's not who has better debuffs, it's that both of our debuffs can work at the same time that matters. When we are in a party it does matter. BLU still has it's unique debuffs that can stack with everyone else's debuffs, it still does a lot more damage, and it still can self skill chain. BLU > RDM in parties. There is very little that we can do that they cannot natively. There is nothing that a RDM can offer a party that already has a BLU and a SCH or another mage type job that is valued. BLU is an overpowered mage hybrid, but I don't see them breaking the game and everyone playing BLU.

Even with melee buffs, specialists should still out damage us, real mages should out heal and/or out nuke us, and tanks should hold hate better than we do. Unless we are going to get some significant love to enfeebling, we aren't the best at anything right now. We are generalist and we want to be generally proficient with everything, including melee.

TL; DR SCH is better than me on the back line, don't make me go back there unless we NEED a 2nd back line caster.

I don't think it is unreasonable for me to be able to contribute more melee damage, so long as I'm not able to out damage a BLU of equal gear and skill.

To achieve this, I personally only want Enspell IIs to not suck and possibly Fencer natively to RDM at some point. The way I would want Enspell IIs to be buffed is to be able to apply to multi-hits on the main hand ONLY. If we don't get Fencer, I want Enspell II damage to apply on WS hits as well. It works within our job parameters and gives us something we can do that no one else can do. It still shouldn't put us on par with actual damage specialists. If it does than maybe those classes should be re-evaluated as well.

[Supersun]

This is from the Job adjustment thread in the general forum. I'm replying to this here because this more responds to "how" a Rdm should recieve a melee buff instead of "why"

Bolded for emphasis. A nerf to switching roles on the fly, but maintaining access to a reasonable level of versatility while on the field (I'm open to discussion on what would be considered reasonable). And yes, that's a huge part of the class as is to remove while keeping the current curebot role. The bonus comes in making a second role available and relevant outside of soloing. It's a win-win.

I disagree that the solution to Rdm melee is to add some type of "stance" because simply when you get down to it I feel that ruins the only real distinction between Rdm and Blu and goes against what makes a the job a Rdm.

Most people might say that Blu is a melee mage or a something like that, but I disagree. I feel Blu is a job that has the ability perform any role, but has the catch of only being able to pick a few roles at a time with a severe 1 min cooldown if it needs to change preventing it from changing on the fly. Obviously Blu won't outperform a specialist, but it can perform just about any role to be the next best thing.

Rdm on the other hand I feel is the job that is competent at everything at the same time. We too also have the ability perform every role, but we can perform every role at the same time. Now you might say this sounds broken, but the difference is that we don't have as much power as a Blu's specific role that he picks. Blu is the specialist-1 while Rdm is the generalist.

That's not to say Rdm doesn't have its limitations. MP, Time, and Inventory can all be used to prevent Rdm from becoming the god mage just like MP, points, and slots, prevent Blu from doing so. I don't feel that a stance type JA fits thematically into how Rdm should be balanced.

Now I know all too well that the above isn't exactly how the game is right now, but it's more of an ideal of what I think the original intentions were behind the jobs. Not to say there aren't other ideals that fit at well, but any ideal that either steps on Schs or Blus toes probably goes against the intention of the developers.

[Duelle]

I disagree that the solution to Rdm melee is to add some type of "stance" because simply when you get down to it I feel that ruins the only real distinction between Rdm and Blu and goes against what makes a the job a Rdm.

At the same time, a job that has access to everything at the same time is a nightmare to balance. We would in part not be in this pickle if gear-swapping was prohibited mid-combat because it is a valid balance point to concider. You buff melee leaving everything else intact and you get guys who are doing good melee numbers capable of switching to a full MAB set to cast spells and then switch to full cure potency gear for cures and then switch to enfeebling gear to cast enfeebles. I have a feeling this is the scenario the balance mongers that are against RDM melee are keeping in mind.

That's part of why I mentioned "a reasonable amount of versatility". Kind of like the "melee stance" raising sword skill to A-, tossing in some melee traits and maybe some job abilities that emphasize the theme of melee enhanced by magic and being limited to Tier III nukes and cures at lv90 (this is just an example). At least as I see it, that is a lot easier to balance because you know where the weaknesses are and a job following such a design isn't going to solo HNMs anytime soon.

Admitedly, I am of the school of thought that pure generalists simply do not work in MMOs. RDM and to a lesser extent a class in the game that shall not be named taught me that (both of which are parallels of each other). BLU functions well because it has limitations in place (a lot of which prevented it from getting pigeonholed into healing despite being quite capable at it). SCH has limitations in place as well. Both jobs are considered versatile. I'm simply suggesting that we follow that trend in hopes of at least killing the "RDM isn't a dd" thing. At the most we might end up with a real working melee model while keeping the option to heal/support, thus making both camps happy instead of this hooplah we see on a daily basis.

[Supersun]

--Edit: Holy Wall o Text Batman, be prepared for a really long read D:--

I disagree that a generalist hybrid can't work. That being said you aren't going to fix it by random balance. You are going to have to understand a little of why hybrids haven't worked so far. The main problem I believe actually stems from that we are looking at MMOs balance in the wrong way, mainly the Healer, Tank, DD, trinity.

What are roles really? Roles really don't represent anything else other then different ways to reach an end. Instead of looking at what role a job specializes or generalizes in you should look how much offense and defense it contributes. Because if XI has taught me anything when there's enough competition people will try to accomplish anything with the least amount of defense, and it makes sense economically, this lets you do things with faster and/or with fewer people letting you get the items you want faster.

Now there is some truth behind the DD, tank, healer trinity, because the tank and the healer create an effective synergy meaning that 2 jobs create more defensive power then 2 jobs normally make. In most games healers cures don't generally vary depending on the target tremendously. Now let's say you are in a situation where your healer isn't enough to survive against a monster's attacks and you have 2 options for another member, either another healer or a tank. Let's say the tank takes half the damage a normal person would take. If you invite the healer you double your healing power which might be enough to survive, but if you invite the tank since he takes half damage and your cures stay consistent you are effectively increasing your defense by 4x. Enfeebling works the same way. If you in addition to the tank and the healer invited an enfeebler who had the potential of halving the monster's attacks then the synergy between the 3 jobs is not 8x normal. Those 3 jobs can accomplish what it would take 8 healers to do normally.

That being said the issue with Red Mage is that it's terrible at synergizing with certain other jobs because a lot of their buffs/debuffs don't stack with other jobs. For example White Mage, your traditional healer, syngergizes terribly with Red Mage, especially in a game state where enfeebles are worthless. The only thing Red Mage offers to the White Mage that synergizes is Refresh II and even that doesn't synergize that well since they can sub for their own refresh. Sure they can back up cure and help haste the DDs but there's no synergy with a white mage doing that (unless your White Mage has to rest a LOT). You would probably be better off inviting a Bard with a healing sub if you wanted that. The Bards ballad stacks with the White Mages Refresh and the Bard syngergizes with the White Mages offensive buffs as well (Haste + March). THe White Mage supplies nothing I can actually think of off the top of my head that synergizess with the Red Mage. They use the same haste so they don't stack, they use the same gain spells so they don't stack, ect, ect...

Not to mention that this is on top of the fact that that people are trying to invite the minimum amount of defense to get the job done and people rarely need anything more then a White Mage anyway. The Red Mage really only has one thing to contribute the offense that synergizes that the White Mage doesn't have, Dia III, and with Dia III not being that significantly stronger then the White Mages option, Dia II, and in a game state where most heavy DDs can pretty much cap attack with just their food and their own buffs that leaves Rdm in a bad predicament.

This is why I say that Red Mages only real job when we leave abyssea will likely be being invited to a Black Mage party to refresh the Black Mages because certainly adding 1 Red Mage to a party of 5 Black Mages will syngergize more damage then adding a 6th Black Mage, but then again, so will Bard, Corsair, and Summoner and most of those will do a better job (especially Corsair).

Not to mention this is on top of the fact that specialist jobs already tend to synergize better with each other then generalists do due to economies of scale generally favoring the specialists. There has to be some way to compensate for this on the generalist end and frankly one of the easiest ways is to simply create artificial synergy. If a specialist is 100% of a job (for this example, in reality they tend to have other aspects as well). The improper way to create a hybrid would be a 50% 50% split between 2 roles. Inviting 2 specialists for those roles generally create more synergy then inviting 2 of the hybrids. Like I said one easy way of fixing this is to just create artificial synergy. If instead you made the hybrids 70% and 70% then inviting 2 hybrids would "artificially" create synergy by giving rhe party 140% worth from 2 people. The problem with this though is that people will still invite what is better and either the hybrids artificial synergy will surpass the specialists or they will still be weaker. Mind you that there is an area of grey that makes it difficult to tell which one is actually ahead, but getting anywhere near that area is already difficult.

The better way is to create a unique way for the hybrids to synergize with other jobs. Dancer is a great example of this. Their buffs and offensive debuffs stack with other buffs and debuffs of the same type from other jobs synergizing well with them. Haste Sanba stacks with Haste and Box Step stacks with Dia (though Desperate Blows and Haste Samba doesn't synergize well, but that's the exception).

To be honest Red Mage would be a lot closer to being balanced if SE would just create better monsters. Monsters that aren't artificially difficult because of enfeebling immunity and monsters that naturally require lots of defensive synergies between jobs to actually survive. Monsters that most jobs don't just automatically cap most stats on making Store TP really the only stats that increases your damage. Then Red Mage would be fine as the master of enfeebling. That being said I don't see that happening, and most of the unique ideas that would create additional offensive synergy that the Red Mage boards have thought of that would help Red Mage melee have been passed to newer jobs, besides with the Aura idea that tends to go thematically against Red Mage. Unless someone things of another unique way to give Red Mage additional synergy that doesn't step on the toes of Sch or Blu the only way left really is artificial synergy.

[Windblade]

RDM could be made fun again. I would sometimes like to get right beside the monster and hit it, but I usually CAN'T hit it because of low accuracy. RDM could be geared to be more effective enfeeblers. Like if you have Enstone active on your sword, your Slow spell would have more potency. You could Enblizzard for a more potent Paralyze. If the RDM had a full set of elemental weapon skills, the ice elemental weapon skill could kick a whammy of a Paralyze on the mob. This would reduce the need for cures because people wouldn't be taking as much damage... Therefore RDM becomes VERY helpful on the front line instead of standing back using staff-switch macros.

But RDM does need better accuracy, even if it's magically-induced.

Or here's an idea... make it a job ability toggle system. If you're a healer, use a job ability that reduces your weapon accuracy, but increases cure potency. Or if you're in melee mode, you have normal cure potency and more accuracy.

If RDM is never going to get Cure V back, at least let us have some more natural cure potency.

[Seriha]

I'm not keen on the stance idea if you're looking at it from the give and take angle. WHM's stances take nothing from them, but they're still unique. Meanwhile, I'd still like to play on my old Elemental Feedback idea where Enspell damage builds into a pool like Sublimation/Solace cures there you can then apply buffs to certain job aspects based on the mode you're in. The two I came up with basically had one where you upped the potency and duration of all buffs, while the other boosted your nukes and enfeebles. How much would vary based on how many points you opted to put into them from your enspell reserve. And of course, hopping between them would kill your pool, prompting a bit more thinking to be made in how you behave.

The moment you start taking needed things from RDM just to appease people, the more you cripple it in a way that'll steer them toward the specialists. Much as I like having T4 nukes, I could've lived without them, just as SCH shouldn't have gotten T5s and instead got T2 Helix spells. SE's monumentally screwed up on some facets of this cap increase, and to go back on it now would probably do more harm than good.

[Duelle]

The main problem I believe actually stems from that we are looking at MMOs balance in the wrong way, mainly the Healer, Tank, DD, trinity.

Not to sound crass, but ignoring a pillar of game design like the trinity is already getting off to a bad start. There have been outliers, of course, but they create more problems than they fix. RDM proved this quite readily when parties were trapped in jeuno because they lacked someone with refresh/ballad.

That being said the issue with Red Mage is that it's terrible at synergizing with certain other jobs because a lot of their buffs/debuffs don't stack with other jobs. For example White Mage, your traditional healer, syngergizes terribly with Red Mage, especially in a game state where enfeebles are worthless. The only thing Red Mage offers to the White Mage that synergizes is Refresh II and even that doesn't synergize that well since they can sub for their own refresh. Sure they can back up cure and help haste the DDs but there's no synergy with a white mage doing that (unless your White Mage has to rest a LOT). You would probably be better off inviting a Bard with a healing sub if you wanted that. The Bards ballad stacks with the White Mages Refresh and the Bard syngergizes with the White Mages offensive buffs as well (Haste + March). The White Mage supplies nothing I can actually think of off the top of my head that synergizess with the Red Mage.

This is due to them sharing spells. It would have been another story if RDM spells had been completely different from what WHM and BLM have access to. RDM, being RDM, is simply utilizing those spells to full its spell list. That's well within concept of the job, so it can't be helped.

The Red Mage really only has one thing to contribute the offense that synergizes that the White Mage doesn't have, Dia III, and with Dia III not being that significantly stronger then the White Mages option, Dia II, and in a game state where most heavy DDs can pretty much cap attack with just their food and their own buffs that leaves Rdm in a bad predicament.

Even if this were not the case, that'd leave the RDM to be invited for enfeebles, adding that to cure and refresh duty.

There has to be some way to compensate for this on the generalist end and frankly one of the easiest ways is to simply create artificial synergy. If a specialist is 100% of a job (for this example, in reality they tend to have other aspects as well). The improper way to create a hybrid would be a 50% 50% split between 2 roles. Inviting 2 specialists for those roles generally create more synergy then inviting 2 of the hybrids. Like I said one easy way of fixing this is to just create artificial synergy. If instead you made the hybrids 70% and 70% then inviting 2 hybrids would "artificially" create synergy by giving rhe party 140% worth from 2 people. The problem with this though is that people will still invite what is better and either the hybrids artificial synergy will surpass the specialists or they will still be weaker. Mind you that there is an area of grey that makes it difficult to tell which one is actually ahead, but getting anywhere near that area is already difficult.

As I've seen this tried elsewhere, it wouldn't really work. Even with the smaller numbers and stat values in FFXI, it still would not pick up because in the end, the masses are not number crunchers. They're not going to tell themselves that inviting the hybrids will compensate for the pures they're leaving out because of utility. They'd have to be perceived in a way that they contribute near equally (the mythical 5%) before it comes anywhere close to being accepted.

Unless someone things of another unique way to give Red Mage additional synergy that doesn't step on the toes of Sch or Blu the only way left really is artificial synergy.

I don't look at it as stepping on toes. I look at it as RDM joining the new definition of hybrid instead of being stuck in the stone age in terms of design. Hybrids like RDM were seen in everquest and a bunch of older games. Those days are long gone, and while everyone has had ways to get with the times (even BLM), we're got very little thrown our way.

The moment you start taking needed things from RDM just to appease people, the more you cripple it in a way that'll steer them toward the specialists.

Depends on what is needed. Versatility we need. Ability to switch roles on the fly, which from a balance standpoint is what keeps the devs from touching our class, is not.

I can compromise, though. I originally said what I said due to figuring a melee stance would have something like an instant attack on a one-minute cooldown that would allow an elemental spell to be cast through the equipped blade (sword or dagger). We're already doing away with cast times with that alone. In conjunction, my version of Magic Fencer (which would be gained in the 50s when this stance is active) would grant a TP bonus to spells cast through this instant ability (I've yet to figure out what limitations to place to prevent some guy building TP, then switching to a MAB set and then using the ability...short of making the instant use ability's damage be unnaffected by MAB). I guess I could make it work with only your second highest tier. So at lv cap RDM would be able to insta-cast tier IIIs (with a TP bonus) and have tier IVs to hard cast. Guess I should write this down as a class concept and post at some point.