Unlocking SMN potential in abyssea.

[Dallas]

Name one ability SMN has that is "Back Line," and I will tell you what job you have as a subjob. Every other "pet job" fights alongside their pet. You had to contrive usefulness in the back line, you were built for DD.

[Cett]

Back at 75, one of the most efficient ways to live and solo the original avatars was to have 5/5 elemental avatar perp merited. Then you simply summon them let them engage the avatar on their own, and letting them cast. With this set up you would have the same perpetuation as an Avatar, however you wouldn't lose the MP you would if you had to bloodpact. Since the only way to pull this off without screwing yourself over is to not get hate, melee'ing would be out of the question. In fact, anything that isn't a normal quality mob that maintains some relevance in being defeated is best defeated through these methods (To clarify: I'm speaking specifically to the minimization of enmity on yourself).

@ Dallas:
You've shown time and time again through the forums that you strongly support melee smn strategies, thats cool if what you do in the game allows you to pull this off. However, I will argue that your use of "other pet jobs melee'ing along side their pets" is a very weak argument and shouldn't be used to justify why you should be melee'ing.

By all means keep doing it, but come up with a better reason than "well they're doing it so I should be too because I am similar to them". Numbers speak louder than words friend.

Summoner has less hp, defensive abilities/traits/stats and offensive stats (save for int) than DRG, BST, or PUP.

Drg can't Melee without their pets engaging given the presence of their pet.
Pup, well no comment... (their pet won't always "fight" with them as opposed to cure them :P )

Beast is your strongest argument however. Beast has the same enmity mitigation strategies that summoner has, I would go as far as to say that they are the opposite side of the same coin when matched against summoner.

Except, Summoner is the "magical" image of a beastmaster who are 95% physical based.

Every job has a level of versatility and use, finding it is important. If all you do is melee with your pet and focus on yourself, you mimimize the ability to support others who may have even more potential than yourself. I've never seen you actually play the job, nor you me. Though from your posts, melee is all I see you speak of which can lead me and others to assume that is all you wish to do. Construct a stronger argument and prove us wrong, explain what you do and how/why you do it. If you want to make the difference prove that it is a superior method in damage optimization in the long run, don't just throw out opinion and say you're just like others!

XD

[Malamasala]

There is a trade off in meleeing. Its called feeding the mob TP.

Did you ever think that one through before perpetuating that myth? If TP feed was bad, haste would be the worst spell in the game since it increases TP feed.

There are of course monsters you want to watch TP feed on. Fafnir for example is annoying with wing spam. Kirin on the other hand has 100% TP constantly and you could feed him any amount you want. (Though I'd not suggest SMN melee on kirin anyway)

Simply put, your argument carry no weight in almost the whole game.

If you want to make the difference prove that it is a superior method in damage optimization in the long run, don't just throw out opinion and say you're just like others!

What are we even trying to argue here? If you are in a 5 BLM party, the obviously best way to play is Diabolos + favor and toss out Dream Shroud. But that doesn't mean it is the best way to play SMN always.

Melee is what you are supposed to do every single time when you would otherwise just be idling in the back and casting the rare cure spell. Except when your life is in danger of course. Refusing to melee just because you think you are a mage is how poor players play. Using your full potential means adapting to the situation and minimizing the idle time.

[Dallas]

Summoner has less hp, defensive abilities/traits/stats and offensive stats (save for int) than DRG, BST, or PUP.

You are NOT getting hit by anything but AOE, and you *should* be using AOE cures from Garuda. If you used the best Atma setup (physical), your pettp converts into 500+ hp AOE cures. These cures only work at POINT BLANK RANGE, meaning you better be in melee range.

As far as I know, not a single SMN besides me has complained about the lack of hate tools for SMN. Your argument is worthless without the skill to draw hate off your pet. Your pet is one of the best defensive tanks in game.

BTW, I've been meleeing for what, 5 years now? Why in the world do you think you can convince me I can't do it? All the numbers you are looking for exist. Go find them.

[Cett]

You are NOT getting hit by anything but AOE, and you *should* be using AOE cures from Garuda. If you used the best Atma setup (physical), your pettp converts into 500+ hp AOE cures. These cures only work at POINT BLANK RANGE, meaning you better be in melee range.

As far as I know, not a single SMN besides me has complained about the lack of hate tools for SMN. Your argument is worthless without the skill to draw hate off your pet. Your pet is one of the best defensive tanks in game.

BTW, I've been meleeing for what, 5 years now? Why in the world do you think you can convince me I can't do it? All the numbers you are looking for exist. Go find them.

Blood pacting along with melee, and summoning all provide cumulative amounts of enmity. Your pet can only draw hate off you during blood pacts and gradually loses hate after each hit. You are also building up your enmity through melee but clearly not enough to pull off your pet immediately.

In my experience using the emp weapon, with haste , double marches, /sam and some haste gear with DD atma's :P (i can have fun but not gonna use this shit in groups) , I can pull hate off garuda in less than 5 attack cycles following a predator claw.

You've been accusing me of never meleeing and idling blah blah blah , well all I've asked for from you is your own initiative to share with the community what you find to be productive strategies using a job we apparantly care about. I won't ever choose DD atma's vs Magic atma's for fighting NM's that lack resistance to any form of magic. And I don't idle with 300 tp if my mp is full, i'll run in and weapon skill garland which will have a positive effect on the other DD's actually t2t'ing the said NM.

Regardless of this maybe your play style differs due to the number of people you play with, I for example have 1 whm in a ls of 20+ .. She also multi boxes most of the time. I'll help cure because well.. I enjoy winning, as much as i enjoy playing summoner. :P

And perhaps I don't have this skill you mentioned because I tried goign full melee style vs Orthrus, guess what happened! Even with pet buffs, and full shell/protect/marches etc , Archeon flame x2 took me out because summoner shouldn't be that close to high tier NM's :P . The 1 White mage can't be responsible for keeping me alive due to the fact that the tanks require attention first XD .

Btw, I'm still just trying to get you to prove something since you were wayyyyy off on the atma of azure stuff :P That was silly to believe.

[Dallas]

Atma of the Azure? (45/35 - 1)*(1/3)<10% increase wasting 1 atma slot. I did crazy easy maths and realized it sucked. Sea Daughter maths sucked even more.

There you go! Proof. Proof I do not need to waste my time.

Congratulations, you have a bad LS and killed yourself on AOE. Learn from your mistakes and level WHM. They need it.

[Papesse]

Informations about Azure Sky are partially false. Azure Sky can not bypass the 45 seconds cap. With Accord Hat/Caller's Earring/Yinyang Robe/Summoner's Bracers +2/Tiresia's Cape/Atma I'm still at 45 seconds. Removing Accord Hat/Yinyang Robe/Summoner's Bracers +2 gives me 45 seconds also. A basic BP delay -10 with nothing special.

[Korpg]

Name one ability SMN has that is "Back Line," and I will tell you what job you have as a subjob.

Megalith Throw
Nether Blast
Merited BP:75
Holy Mist
Lunar Bay
Night Terror
Lunar Cry
Lunar Roar
Healing Ruby I, not II


I could add the Tier II and Tier IV spells, but those are just useless for SMN anyway.

All of these don't require your avatar to be near the mob, so technically they are all "Back Line" abilities.

Now, what job do I have as a subjob?

[Dallas]

Megalith Throw
Nether Blast
Merited BP:75
Holy Mist
Lunar Bay
Night Terror
Lunar Cry
Lunar Roar
Healing Ruby I, not II


I could add the Tier II and Tier IV spells, but those are just useless for SMN anyway.

All of these don't require your avatar to be near the mob, so technically they are all "Back Line" abilities.

Now, what job do I have as a subjob?

How do you get pettp? What in the world are you healing in the back line with no one in range?

That leaves Megalith Throw. If that's your main pact, I know your sub. You are subbing /BLM for Fire II.

Informations about Azure Sky are partially false. Azure Sky can not bypass the 45 seconds cap. With Accord Hat/Caller's Earring/Yinyang Robe/Summoner's Bracers +2/Tiresia's Cape/Atma I'm still at 45 seconds. Removing Accord Hat/Yinyang Robe/Summoner's Bracers +2 gives me 45 seconds also. A basic BP delay -10 with nothing special.

It was always irrelevant. The "best case" was always less than 1/4 as powerful as any physical atma. This thread is about potential, and that atma never had any.

[Korpg]

How do you get pettp? What in the world are you healing in the back line with no one in range?

That leaves Megalith Throw. If that's your main pact, I know your sub. You are subbing /BLM for Fire II.

Wrong.

You can walk up to the person and use Healing Ruby (both of them), you don't HAVE to attack the mob to use the blood pacts.

Same goes for merited BPs. Except you can be even further away from the mob to use it, you never have to engage or sic the avatar on the mob to use these.

For TP, guess you never heard of this nice little item called "Caller's Pendant"

Also, I never use /BLM for SMN, its either /WHM, /RDM, or /SCH. /BLM is useless (what am I going to do, nuke the mob to death?).

Point being, you never have to engage the monster, you can sit back and just Blood Pact away. Even then, you can use atmas that give you (and your pet) Regain. But outside of Abyssea, you can still use Caller's Pendant (a very easy NM to solo as SMN also btw, you should not have an excuse to not have it).