SMN Needs a Clearer Role and Modern Update

[dmuller30]

SMN really feels like it needs a real update. The job has an identity crisis right now and does not feel especially strong at damage or support.

I don’t expect SMN to be top-tier DPS, especially since avatar damage is generally safer than melee damage. That’s fair. But SMN should still feel viable outside of very specific setups or Astral Conduit.

Calling SMN a niche job does not really solve the problem. A niche still needs to be valuable, and right now SMN’s unique strengths feel too limited to justify how far behind it is in damage, support, and general utility.

Blood Pact timers are still the biggest issue. Even with heavy investment, SMN is usually waiting around 20 seconds between major damage actions, while other jobs can weapon skill, self-skillchain, or burst much more frequently. A 10 to 15 second Blood Pact timer would not make SMN overpowered. It would just help the job feel modern.

And yes, SMN has Wards and Avatar’s Favor, but that support does not come close to BRD, COR, or GEO. Favor is also awkward because it depends on keeping the right avatar out, while SMN often needs to swap avatars for different pacts. Meanwhile, BRD, COR, and GEO all bring stronger support while still contributing real damage.

BRD can Savage Blade for 40k to 70k, COR can put out strong weaponskill damage, and GEO can nuke respectable numbers on skillchains while still providing powerful support. If those jobs can support and still contribute meaningful damage, SMN should not be held back this hard just because it has some utility.

SMN does not need to be the best DPS or the best support job. It just needs both sides of its kit to matter. Right now, the damage is too delayed, pet scaling feels outdated, the support is not strong enough to justify the delay, and the job feels too niche.

I love SMN. I just want it to feel like it belongs in modern FFXI without relying almost entirely on its 2-hour.

[Alhanelem]

I agree SMN is underpowered and lacking in various regards, but BP timers are not the issue. The minimum BP timer is 15 seconds as I recall, and that effectively means an ability use every 7 seconds between both BP categories. When I play solo (/SAM) I am ready to WS right around the time or sooner that my BPs come up, for solo SC+MB. I don't have an issue with the frequency, I just have an issue with how unimpressive the abilities are in the current era.

The issue is really just the limited ways SMN can increase its power and it having to do far more to get far less benefit than other jobs (like anyone that can use Savage Blade, which is comparatively trivial to enhance.

Perosnally what I would do is get rid of the restriction about buffs and healing applying to summons. SMN would get substantially stronger if GEO bubbles, bard songs, etc actually affected their summons. As things are right now, SMN benefits the least from other support classes, with COR being the only one that can really enhance them- and that comes at the cost of NOT enhancing non-pet jobs.

[Voidstorm]

Agree, if support buffs actually hit pets, then our pets wouldn't be so terribly under powered.

I think 15 seconds is too long a delay, and the Mewing Lullaby nerf for repeating that just make it worse.
If you are focused on dealing damage, you effectively can only WS OR MB once every 16 seconds. (delay between activating BP & it going off)
Other jobs can get their delay down to 4 or 5 seconds fairly easily.
This could be remedied by making each individual blood pact have the 15s cooldown instead of sharing the same blood pact: rage/ward cooldowns.
That would render it the same as a BLM nuking. You can't spam Thundaja every 5 seconds, but you can Thundaja > Thunder 6 > Thunder 4 in a MB window. And be ready to repeat the process when the next MB window opens.

SMN could also use a major buff to its Avatar's Favors & Wards. SMN simply can't compete at all with BRD COR or GEO.
I consider BRD & GEO as having largely overlapping buffs. Nothing really overlaps buffs with COR though.
Nothing else gives store TP, or save TP.
We at least have comparable Double Attack+ or Crit rate+ but those typically aren't the rolls anyone uses anyway.
Cait Sith's Favor with Store TP+40~80 (based on favor level) would be so much better than Magic Defense Bonus+10~38 (guessing on the low end)

[Gwydion]

SMN did have it's moment in the sun when Aeonics came out (and kind of still do) for people who are farming Aeonic weapons.

But I get it, making a job useful for some content (like SMN vs Aeonics or BST vs Bumba RP farm) just doesn't make the content fullfil a role in a standard 6-person party.

[Marsipan]

I agree SMN is underpowered and lacking in various regards, but BP timers are not the issue. The minimum BP timer is 15 seconds as I recall, and that effectively means an ability use every 7 seconds between both BP categories. When I play solo (/SAM) I am ready to WS right around the time or sooner that my BPs come up, for solo SC+MB. I don't have an issue with the frequency, I just have an issue with how unimpressive the abilities are in the current era.

The issue is really just the limited ways SMN can increase its power and it having to do far more to get far less benefit than other jobs (like anyone that can use Savage Blade, which is comparatively trivial to enhance.

Perosnally what I would do is get rid of the restriction about buffs and healing applying to summons. SMN would get substantially stronger if GEO bubbles, bard songs, etc actually affected their summons. As things are right now, SMN benefits the least from other support classes, with COR being the only one that can really enhance them- and that comes at the cost of NOT enhancing non-pet jobs.

The lowest BP timer you can get is 20 seconds as of now in game.

[Alhanelem]

The lowest BP timer you can get is 20 seconds as of now in game.

Thanks. I'm probably just misremembering. My understanding at the time was -30 sec from BP delay - and -15 sec was possible from BP delay - II, but I guess I was mistaken on the latter.

Still I don't think that's too slow. You can use one BP command or the other every 10 seconds and it doesn't even feel that long due to the wind up and animations. I think it would be better to increase power over frequency, because the numbers SMN pull from their best abilities well optimized is still just "okay at best" against what other jobs can do in a single blow with less effort.

But as an alternative to lowering the BP delay limit further, I would propose reducing the default timer (i.e. from level 1) to 45 seconds, unifiy the two seperate BP delay stats, with the same 30 second cap as before so we can achieve the limit with fewer items, and lower the lowest BP timer to what I originally thought was possible, of 15 sec. This would simplify the system be eliminating these two separate stats that do the same thing (I guess this was done purely so you'd be guaranteed not to be able to exceed the original limit before lv76-99?), and give SMN a minor boost in the early stages so it feels better to play for newcomers.

[Voidstorm]

i misremembered the max BP delay- from I, II , III & favor, sorry.
BP delay should be changed to cap at 10s.
I: 15s
II: 15s
III: 10s (job point gifts)
Avatar's Favor: 10s
60-15-15-10-10=10s

[Alhanelem]

BP delay should be changed to cap at 10s.

Disagree. I would rather have more power than more frequency. Can't have cake and eat it too. And the last thing we need even if they did change it would be to add a THIRD stat for getting there. No way, why make it more complicated? It should be made simpler, not more complex.

[Voidstorm]

Disagree. I would rather have more power than more frequency. Can't have cake and eat it too. And the last thing we need even if they did change it would be to add a THIRD stat for getting there. No way, why make it more complicated? It should be made simpler, not more complex.

I see makes sense. SE please nerf Samurai to do 5% its current damage per weaponskill to make SAM's 4s WS output closer a SMN's output.

No third stat needed. use the existing, and simply raise the cap on how low it can be pushed.
This helps get buffs up in a more reasonable time frame. Typically other jobs will be long finished with pre-fight buffs and the SMN still has half to go.

off topic rant because I want to vent more:
I'm real angry right now because someone JUST killed Bugbear Strongman after I've been camping it for 4 and a half hours when i was 15s late to check on it. my seek flag was up.no /check, no /tell, no attempt to invite me, also wearing an empyrean trial weapon and he must have run by me to get to where it pop'd. who does that?

[Alhanelem]

Typically other jobs will be long finished with pre-fight buffs and the SMN still has half to go.

That's what Apogee is for. We weren't really meant to slap every buff in the arsenal on all at once, otherwise they would have put all the buffs on one summon.

I see makes sense. SE please nerf Samurai to do 5% its current damage per weaponskill to make SAM's 4s WS output closer a SMN's output.

You're engaging in ridiculous hyperbole. I'm not suggesting other things be nerfed to SMN look better either. BP delay doesn't really need to be any faster. Much more than we have now and you'll hardly even be able to resummon before the timer is over, making a faster delay pointless, because it's not just the casting delay we have to contend with, it's the summon animation, the delay between pressing buttons and things happening, etc.; and buffing faster doesn't make SMN stronger- it's just convenience/ QoL. I want SMN to be more powerful, not just faster at applying buffs.

All they need to do is revisit how stats play into BP damage, base power values, and so on, to make SMN's BP damage closer to what other classes can achieve with far less effort in gear hunting and macro swapping. If all you want to do is buff faster, that really just ignores the lion's share of what SMN can (and should be) capable of.