PLEASE REMOVE OR LESSEN RESTRICTIONS ON GARDENING FOR NEW PLAYERS

[Alhanelem]

I'm sorry but you really are dead wrong on this.

I'm sorry but I'm dead right on this. The vast majority of all bans (meaning all bans, not salvage bans) are against RMT or bots. That doesn't mean no one gets banned for other reasons; But even if you know X number of people who got banned for POS hacking, that doesn't make them a majority or even a major chunk of the bannings.

And as a side note, the pos hackers deserved the bans just like the salvage cheaters.

The number of bans on real players greatly exceeds 550

Total bans of all time? yes. Salvage bans? No. BG, the "prominent" community for "prominent" players, was only able to identify a little more than half of the salvage bans. SE's numbers are approximate, but they're not way off. If they were as far off as you'd like to think, BG sure as heck (knowing them) would be able to turn up more than 550 or so bans. If it's what you were thinking, in no way did I suggest or try to suggest that the people banned in the *salvage incident only* were mostly bots or RMT. In fact, few to none of them probably were. I was speaking about ALL bans.

People are banned all the time for this or that. But the number of people banned is a very very small percentage out of the total population. I don't think you realize just how many people still play this game (And don't start pulling /sea all numbers on me- there are a lot more active players than there are users CURRENTLY ONLINE at ONE INSTANT).

[SNK]

I'm sorry but I'm dead right on this.

No you're not <_>

Total bans of all time? yes.

That's what I'm talking about. I don't know where you think that SE has banned only RMTs and bots outside of the Salvage bans. This isn't as black and white as you're making it out to be.

Salvage bans? No. BG, the "prominent" community for "prominent" players, was only able to identify a little more than half of the salvage bans.

That's the thing, SE did a lot more then just the Salvage bans. I mean did you miss the people who exploited the Tav NPC glitch who made millions of gil? They got hammered for it and a lot of them were real people among RMTs. SE doesn't pick which type of player, RMT, Bot or real person & then does the ban. They ban anyone who does stupid shit that's breaking the ToS.

SE's numbers are approximate, but they're not way off. If they were as far off as you'd like to think, BG sure as heck (knowing them) would be able to turn up more than 550 or so bans.

You're totally missing the point. People already know the magic #was 550. There's no debating that but you're coming off as saying that any other accounts that had gotten banned weren't real people.

If it's what you were thinking, in no way did I suggest or try to suggest that the people banned in the *salvage incident only* were mostly bots or RMT. In fact, few to none of them probably were. I was speaking about ALL bans.

And so am I but again like I said... not all people outside of the Salvage bans were RMT accounts or bots. <_>

People are banned all the time for this or that. But the number of people banned is a very very small percentage out of the total population.

That's excatly what I'm talking about. "People." Not bots nor RMTs.

I don't think you realize just how many people still play this game (And don't start pulling /sea all numbers on me- there are a lot more active players than there are users CURRENTLY ONLINE at ONE INSTANT).

I've been playing since December 2003. I know that while the number of people isn't as great as it was circa 2004-2005 there are still a lot of people across all servers even if they're doing another server merge again.

I don't need to do any Sea alls to realize that SE is just condensing the servers more and more. It's just a sign of the times changing.

[Fiarlia]

Someone was saying that Salvage bans were the beginning of the decline for FFXI's population because it banned thousands of players, or at the very least a couple hundred+ per server. Alhanelem was arguing this point, and this point alone, because it's simply not true, as the amount of people banned was so low in comparison to server populations and number of servers as roughly 30 people per server (on average) received any kind of punishment at all. No way did ~30 people per server start a mass exodus regardless of how butthurt people seemed to be over the whole thing.

Then you come in and start arguing about something completely unrelated and missing the point of his posts in the first place.

[Rambus]

The savage bans was the start of the mass bannings that should not have happened.

again those that are picky about my words i am sorry SE did not kill FFXI but greatly speed it up in 2009

you want to worry about now? and stop the QQing of the past? ok

lets tell SE they are They do not know how to target RMT ( I showed why) and that they countermeasures target real players more then RMT ( i explained why)

So get rid of them. the countermeasures do nothing. the main thing that killed RMT was abyssea.

Someone was saying that Salvage bans were the beginning of the decline for FFXI's population because it banned thousands of players, or at the very least a couple hundred+ per server. Alhanelem was arguing this point, and this point alone, because it's simply not true, as the amount of people banned was so low in comparison to server populations and number of servers as roughly 30 people per server (on average) received any kind of punishment at all. No way did ~30 people per server start a mass exodus regardless of how butthurt people seemed to be over the whole thing.

Then you come in and start arguing about something completely unrelated and missing the point of his posts in the first place.

then he missed the point. it was the start of an increased decline but that was not the main point.
I admitted wrong on some of my word use so why is he carrying on?

[SNK]

I admitted wrong on some of my word use so why is he carrying on?

Probably because of me. lol

[Alhanelem]

it was the start of an increased decline

A decline in players may have occured "within 6 months" (the number you gave) but you keep implying, with sentences like the quoted one, that the salvage bans were a trigger or catalyst for this decline when that can't be proven and there are many other explanations.

Your "admission" is not good enough, because you're still saying that the bans "greatly increased" the speed of the decline, which is just completely utterly wrong and you have no evidence to support the statement. Saying 500 people got banned and 6 months later there's a world merge does not prove any kind of connection. The server merge was also very likely in the making for a while. It wasn't just planned overnight, nor was SE thinking "Hmm, we banned 500 people, so we need to close some servers."

lets tell SE they are They do not know how to target RMT ( I showed why) and that they countermeasures target real players more then RMT ( i explained why)

You haven't shown anything, and countermeasures never "target" real players. Sometimes they do affect real players which is unfortunate, but they certainly aren't targeted. But since you act as though you're such an expert on the issue, why not outline your detailed, exact plans for how to deal with RMT without impacting legitimate players?

There is very little RMT out there. Whether it has anything to do with SE's efforts remains to be seen, but the thrust of the original topic of this thread is that restrictions on things that have been abused by RMT in the past can probably be loosened now. However, that doesn't mean that SE's efforts had no effect on RMT.

That's the thing, SE did a lot more then just the Salvage bans.

And?
This doesn't change the fact that bannigs are not a major contributing factor to population decline, and the fact that the people banned are still a very, very small portion of the total population. Dispute it all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that it's true.

Nothing lasts forever. When a game's population decreases, it's because it's old. FFXI is old. The population didn't decrease (other than by the number of people banned) because of the bannings. Period. There is no rational, logical way to dispute this, as there is no data to support such a theory.

I can guarantee you that anyone playing the banning card is just sore over being banned themselves, or some friend of theirs being banned, and assuming that because it happened to their friend, it must have happened to some huge number of people.

[Rambus]

A decline in players may have occured "within 6 months" (the number you gave) but you keep implying, with sentences like the quoted one, that the salvage bans were a trigger or catalyst for this decline when that can't be proven and there are many other explanations..

yes I did, there was a huge mass bannings in those 6 months and it started with the savage bans.

destorying 3 ls on one server is small?? what do you mean cannot prove? them more quit because these where friends with the said people then SE kept going with ban crazy.

what are you saying those bans had no effect because it was 500 total or w/e? thats crazy

I can guarantee you that anyone playing the banning card is just sore over being banned themselves, or some friend of theirs being banned, and assuming that because it happened to their friend, it must have happened to some huge number of people.

This is where you are ignorant, read the links I gave you, those mas bans of 2009 was no joke and i even got hit by them 4 times ( if you count 3 on each account on the first wave, then the 4th on my mule account again).

go back in my post and click on those links, you are underestimating what happened in 2009 because you are blind.

I cannot believe you are trying to debate that those bans in 2009 ( all the bans not just savage) had no impact on the decline of the game.

I was not greatly effected by any of the bans outside of principle (you DO NOT tell me I cheated when I didn’t, i am not a RMT), it does not or should not take much thought process to see baning like that is wrong. I did not have close friends that where effected by any of this ( that I know of) all things i speak is out of principle.

[Alhanelem]

I cannot believe you are trying to debate that those bans in 2009 ( all the bans not just savage) had no impact on the decline of the game.

Not *NO* impact. But a small impact. To suggest that these bans directly led to the server merges and population decrease is just ludicrous. Age of the game, changes to the metagame (e.g. "its not the same game I played 5 years ago"). Abyssea possibly, though it's hard to say- I know some people who quit because they didn't like how they felt SE was easy-buttoning the game in their view, but I also it brought a few people back who quit because they were frustrated at not being able to get stuff done before. *I* can't believe you've argued that bans are a primary reason for the decline. People who did nothing wrong whatsoever for the most part had nothing to fear, and wouldn't quit the game because someone who DID do something wrong got in trouble for it. I know of no one who wasn't a close friend of a cheater (and probably cheated along with them) who ever threatened to quit because someone who did cheat got the banhammer.

yes I did, there was a huge mass bannings in those 6 months and it started with the savage bans.

There were no huge mass bannings in that timeframe. Only the salvage bans, which we established aren't huge at all, especially compared to the RMT accont closures that occured in the years BEFORE the salvage bans (and yes, a few people who might not have been RMT were affected by those, but it was mostly RMT, whom nobody will miss)

WoW bans tons of people all the time. Has it affected their population? Not really- WoW's population has plateaued, but I never saw a bunch of people ragequitting every time they announced bans.

(edit)Now take a look at this.
http://maplestory.nexon.net/News/News.aspx?boardNo=105
I realize it's not exactly the same because it's a F2P game and it's hard to truly ban someone permanently in them, but still. MapleStory publishes a list of everyone it bans every month. They ban more accounts in a few months than SE has banned in the entire history of the game. and their game's population isn't hurting for it. They even added new servers recently, and the game's several years old. (Like 95% of the bans are RMT bots)

[Rambus]

Not *NO* impact. But a small impact. To suggest that these bans directly led to the server merges and population decrease is just ludicrous.

you are ludicrous, wrong, blind, w/e word you want to use.

whatever best dicribes not knowing what goes on around you due to only experence a little part of it ( I think ignorant is best).

All I can say is the bannings of 2009 greatly speed up the death and lead to those mergers and i think the first set of merge was before abyssea.

There were no huge mass bannings in that timeframe. Only the salvage bans, which we established aren't huge at all, especially compared to the RMT accont closures that occured in the years BEFORE the salvage bans (and yes, a few people who might not have been RMT were affected by those, but it was mostly RMT, whom nobody will miss)

OMG read the damn links you are ignorant.

NO! you cannot handle the truth

[Rambus]

This is the biggest one:
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=19095
http://www.1up.com/boards/posts/list/41865.page

http://massively.joystiq.com/2009/07...ends-out-bans/
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/foru...dening-in-FFXI
http://forums.g4tv.com/showthread.php?t=131377
http://gameguidexx.blogspot.com/2009...ix-banned.html
http://www.ffxivcore.com/topic/4179-got-banned-on-ffxi/
http://shamayaasura.livejournal.com/2009/01/23/

I went for a taru this time. Chaz, my friend I hate so much, gave me 100k to get started. He bought me a pair of astrals (you know, because taru have 50 HP to be giving up early on) and a couple pieces of noob gear. He probably spent 200k on gear. I'm in the game for 3 days, am told about Abyssea, purchase both expansions, and THEN I come home to being banned the next day for RMT activities.

http://killingifrit.com/forums/topic...-hate-friends/

Think SE mostly bans only RMT now????? you are blind or sheep or something to sound like SE is all perfect and mostly targets cheaters

There was a quite a number of people that end up stop playing because of that verified crap, then there was other issues where CC companies thought SE was doing fraudulent charges ( and i had my share of phone calls of that issue like some others reported in that thread cept some people end up being banned from it. The reason was the CC of some people just rejected all charges from SE after giving someone those extra charges and just banned the person)