A reworked case for the discrepency between REM weapons and A

[wfoley]

And yes, it will really hurt a lot of players who put a lot of effort into their weapons. I was paying 200k per Beitetsu when they first introduced the unified Afterglow weapon. They're about 7k each now and that's okay. Everything gets easier over time. I paid 35k for HPB, often only being able to buy 1-2 at a time. And that too is okay. But what's not okay would be for someone else to come along and only need 1000 HPB compared to the 13,099 I needed at 20k (and falling) for an Idris. Can't lie, that'll hurt.

I'm sorry, but the "it was hard for me so it should be hard for other people too" doesn't hold. Wanting others to suffer because you suffered or "because it is the way it has always been done" are hurtful to a society as a whole. Wanting to keep a hard requirement because it serves a purpose is one thing, but wanting others to suffer because you did isn't the right mindset.

[detlef]

I'm sorry, but the "it was hard for me so it should be hard for other people too" doesn't hold. Wanting others to suffer because you suffered or "because it is the way it has always been done" are hurtful to a society as a whole. Wanting to keep a hard requirement because it serves a purpose is one thing, but wanting others to suffer because you did isn't the right mindset.

I said I don't mind things becoming easier for people over time. I literally said that I didn't have a problem with it twice in the part of my post that you quoted. What you're suggesting is far too extreme and would rightfully hurt players who have put the effort in.

And is that the only part of my post you're going to reply to? What about the other stuff I wrote? I think you're using a faulty baseline for Aeonics which is the basis for your entire argument. You need the following:
1) To surround yourself with a competent group of players who can tackle all WoC and the T4s;
2) To save up 200m or whatever the going rate is to merc an Aeonic; or
3) Make a SMN group and cheese it.

You're saying all legendary weapons should be able to be made in the same time frame as an Aeonic, but the estimate you're using for the Aeonic process really is the best-case scenario: 27 hours for a well-geared player with multiple useful raid jobs with strong player connections and a good play schedule.

I do agree with two things you said: Mythics should be stronger and the Ergon prereq process is excessive.

[wfoley]

Well, you said you don't mind it getting easier, then said it would hurt a lot of people's feelings. Why is a price drop due to new content adding the currency ok, but a cost drop due to decreased requirements? By your numbers, it was a 96% price drop as beitetsu supply increased...I suggest the same thing but on SEs side.

I can reply to the rest, I didn't see it as asking for a response before, but ok.
Sure Aeonics can take longer to make. So can farming to make gil for other weapons. I based my numbers off a group that goes slowly, but knows every fight. I know numerous people have quoted the time it takes them to merc a clear as 4 hours so 10 is well outside of the best of the best.
1. I concede this point at the beginning, admitting that it is a catch 22 saying you need to be geared in order to do it. A new player could easily fill 4 slots in our group and no one would notice as long as they do their job (sch making skill chains, whm, or 2 cors that buff only) so it isn't unreasonable to say that 10 hours for a new player to make a weapon.
2. I was basing it off making the weapon as a new player, not buying one.
3. A smn group cheesing it for fast wins is still a legitimate method to win if you want to do it that way. I based my estimates off what an average new player would do. Could they opt for smn burning all things? Sure. They could do shout groups, make their own, get their wins even faster than I suggested. That's why I felt my estimate was a reasonable middle ground.

I didn't just say they should all take the same time. I said if they are sidegrades they should, if one is supposed to be more powerful, then it is ok for it to take longer.

[detlef]

Well, you said you don't mind it getting easier, then said it would hurt a lot of people's feelings. Why is a price drop due to new content adding the currency ok, but a cost drop due to decreased requirements? By your numbers, it was a 96% price drop as beitetsu supply increased...I suggest the same thing but on SEs side.

Well, RME reforging has been around since November of 2013. Originally you could only get singles and pouches of 3-15 from Delve. That's the time I was talking about paying out the nose for RME upgrades. That huge price drop occurred over the course of 3.5 years. The situation was complicated by the fact that at the time, you only needed 300 singles to 119 your weapon as the 10k Afterglow upgrade didn't exist yet. So maybe not a good example to use.

Why is a price drop due to to increased supply okay? I guess I would say because it happened gradually and pretty naturally in a way players are accustomed to. Everyone accepts that things will slowly become easier over time. That's just my opinion though, other people might be okay with one or both. To me, reducing the cost is a lot more palatable than reducing the requirement.

Sure Aeonics can take longer to make. So can farming to make gil for other weapons. I based my numbers off a group that goes slowly, but knows every fight. I know numerous people have quoted the time it takes them to merc a clear as 4 hours so 10 is well outside of the best of the best.

Yes, exactly. A group. Aeonics are balanced by the fact that all your progress needs to be in a group setting with other good players on the right jobs playing on the right schedule. If you have the connections then it's a pretty straightforward process. For a lot of players, an Aeonic is completely off the table because of this. It's really hard to compare Relics/Mythics/Empyreans to Aeonics because the investment can vary so much from player to player. It's not just gil or time spent playing (although it can be), it's about connections and networking.

Basically I'm just saying that Aeonics aren't as easy as you think for everybody and therefore shouldn't be used as a point of reference when looking at how to adjust the other weapons. I know you're saying that the efforts should be balanced based on strength, but you're basing it all on Aeonic effort and I feel you're vastly discounting it, especially for players who don't have ready-made networks of capable players at their disposal.

Oh, I did want to touch on the expectation that every player would be expected to have every important weapon for any job they came on. I think right now, a Dunna is what you'd expect every pickup GEO to have. Is it better for the game if the new baseline becomes an Idris? I'm not so sure it is.

[wfoley]

I do concede that a group is required for Aeonics, but more than once we shouted to fill a slot we needed. Heck, I joined my group by shouting in town that I was interested. Now, while I was super geared at the time on numerous jobs, I was asked to come on one I wasn't. I could have been a brand new player and would have been just as fine off. I didn't have any connections before that shout. That's why I don't consider it out of the realm of possibility for all players to acquire them. Now, if you mean some people are asocial and want to play an MMO without interacting with people (Altana knows I fall into that category at times) then ya, solo you will never make an aeonic, but that is completely by choice.

I would be willing to concede a solo player making shout groups for all clears would take longer to make an Aeonic, perhaps on the order of 50 hours, so comparable to a Relic weapon, but still orders of magnitude faster than making a Mythic.

Your last point, forgive me but I'm not sure if you're saying I said something about expecting players to be geared or adding that you would expect all players coming to events to be geared with certain minimums. I would love to believe that the average new player would get certain minimum gear before attempting serious party content, but I don't see it happen all the time. Just this week I have had 2 parties with bards with only 2 songs and 1 geo without dunna trying to do vd ambuscade 2. I would personally get at least oboro items for those jobs before saying I could come as them, but I don't see everyone else do the same. It's because of people like this that I find myself being snobby myself and requesting REMA caliber people for my own parties...I don't want more 2 song bards or non-dunna geos.

By all means, I do not think Idris should be the baseline for all content. What I said was that, if a new geo wants to do endgame content (defined as reisen t3-4, omen and vd ambu 1 by me) that Idris is required and they can't even start it for 6 months. Without a doubt that 6 month road block needs to be removed. It will still take them a few months to farm for the currency for Idris, but they are free to make it as fast as they want to...not as fast as SE says they are allowed.

[Afania]

I tried posting this on other areas and mostly met with negative feedback from a vocal minority, so I thought to bring it here and hope developers see it.

Just FYI if you think anyone that's against your opinion are "Vocal minority". This "I want REM to be made faster" debate has been posted on OF, AH.com and every forum over and over, and almost every time there are people against the idea just because most players that like FFXI like the fact that it doesn't offer instant gratification and fast achievement like other MMOs.

Last time SE tried to phase out legendary in 2013 subscription dropped...A LOT, including JP side of things.

I'm sorry, but the "it was hard for me so it should be hard for other people too" doesn't hold. Wanting others to suffer because you suffered or "because it is the way it has always been done" are hurtful to a society as a whole. Wanting to keep a hard requirement because it serves a purpose is one thing, but wanting others to suffer because you did isn't the right mindset.

Claiming playing the game is "suffering" is one major reason why many FFXI players are against your opinion, we're not even on the same page. You view playing FFXI differently and that's not how it should be.

Wanting to keep a hard requirement because it serves a purpose is one thing, but wanting others to suffer because you did isn't the right mindset.

I recalled long time ago when I went to my cousin's house, they were playing JRPGs. They skipped every single dialogue and CS so they get to boss as soon as possible, as if the purpose of playing RPG is to fight the boss. Then they start using cheat codes, so they can get to fight the boss even faster. I can't help but wonder what's the point of playing like that.....watching story and CS is the entire purpose of playing JRPG, killing boss is just the journey.

Same goes for REMA and gears. The way you talk about playing FFXI, it sound like working on REMA for your job is just "work" and "suffering", before getting one you're left out in cold and live a terrible life, every penny that you paid for subscription fee is just a waste of money because you're not really playing FFXI until you get a REMA or beat T4, this is just not right.

The entire purpose of playing FFXI is the satisfaction of long, long journey. After lots of time investment, you finally get there. Killing the boss is just journey, the satisfaction that comes after massive time investment is the real goal of playing. Therefore, removing the time barrier completely remove the entire purpose of the game, and what it's built on.

Saying new players can't do endgame without REMA or good gear is also false. They may not be able to do the HARDEST endgame, but they can do other content such as Ambu vol2, escha T1~T3, SR, vagary, incursion, delve etc. You sound like only the hardest endgame count as playing, doing everything else isn't playing, just suffering. Which I don't agree with.

I recently reactivated a friends character in abyssea gears, she has no problem doing easier content in very oudated gears at all.

Basically, removing the time barrier from completing a weapon, or a gear, totally goes against game's original design and it decrease game's lifespan.

By all means, I do not think Idris should be the baseline for all content. What I said was that, if a new geo wants to do endgame content (defined as reisen t3-4, omen and vd ambu 1 by me)

So, if someone is new to the game, what's wrong with doing escha T1~T2, SR, ambu vol2, incursion, vagary for 6 months THEN move to reisen T3-T4, omen, vd ambu1? They ARE supposed to go through this process because it's part of playing.

hurtful to a society as a whole.

How'd be "hurtful" to a society that players can't clear the hardest content in a month in a video game that is designed to be played for years?

[wfoley]

Just FYI if you think anyone that's against your opinion are "Vocal minority". This "I want REM to be made faster" debate has been posted on OF, AH.com and every forum over and over, and almost every time there are people against the idea just because most players that like FFXI like the fact that it doesn't offer instant gratification and fast achievement like other MMOs.

Last time SE tried to phase out legendary in 2013 subscription dropped...A LOT, including JP side of things.

It's not that I think contrary points of view are vocal minorities. There were specifically 3 people, you included, posting well over 60 messages about them being against the idea. 3 people being very vocal is the definition of a vocal minority. As for the rest...phasing out relics in 2013 vs lowering the cost is completely different. A price cut on a new car doesn't mean that car will not be around for others to buy. That is a terribly reasoning as it isn't what I suggest at all.

Claiming playing the game is "suffering" is one major reason why many FFXI players are against your opinion, we're not even on the same page. You view playing FFXI differently and that's not how it should be.

The player I was talking with about that specifically said he/she did it the hard way and many people would be upset if it wasn't hard for new people. Perhaps suffering is a bad word for my analogy, but the idea that it was hard for me so it should be hard for you is wrong, plain and simple.

I recalled long time ago when I went to my cousin's house, they were playing JRPGs. They skipped every single dialogue and CS so they get to boss as soon as possible, as if the purpose of playing RPG is to fight the boss. Then they start using cheat codes, so they can get to fight the boss even faster. I can't help but wonder what's the point of playing like that.....watching story and CS is the entire purpose of playing JRPG, killing boss is just the journey.
...stuff

But by your analogy, making REMAs is the point of this game and the only thing people should do to enjoy it. We differ on opinions there. I feel like weapons were designed to serve a purpose...beating content. While I do admit some people only play for making the weapons, but it is unfair to insinuate that making long term weapons is the purpose of an mmo. There are plenty of other long term goals people can have in this game, they don't all have to be making weapons. If that's yours, that's fine, but it isn't everyones. Nor is my opinion representative of everyone's ideal game.

Saying new players can't do endgame without REMA or good gear is also false. They may not be able to do the HARDEST endgame, but they can do other content such as Ambu vol2, escha T1~T3, SR, vagary, incursion, delve etc. You sound like only the hardest endgame count as playing, doing everything else isn't playing, just suffering. Which I don't agree with.

I specifically listed the events I consider end game which was the hardest content. I never said easier content couldn't be done.

It doesn't go against the game's design to make things easier. It takes 1-2 hours to power level to 99 now. That's a heck of a lot easier than it used to be. Why was it ok for that long journey to be shortened? Hitting max level originally took a very long time on some jobs. The developers finally said that leveling wasn't the point of the game. What's to say they couldnt decide month long quests are also not the point of the game?

[Afania]

But by your analogy, making REMAs is the point of this game and the only thing people should do to enjoy it. We differ on opinions there. I feel like weapons were designed to serve a purpose...beating content.

I didn't say making weapon is the only goal in this game. I only said it's one of the long term goal in this game and long term goal is what's FFXI built on.

I always envision REMA to be more of a status item that gives small boost to dedicated players, instead of entrance ticket to endgame or something. That's how it's been for years.

Since it's a status item, it's supposed to take lots of time to build, and it's not suppose to massively outclass none REMA. If newer player can't get into endgame because they're too behind without REMA, the solution is to buff none REMA weapons and make them have at least 90% to 95% of performance of REMA, not hand out REMA to everyone like Halloween candies or something. Otherwise it's no longer a status item, it'd be like spark gear or ambuscade gear, you just wear when you need it and toss them when you don't need it anymore.

And why is status item important? Because in an RPG, creating opportunity for players to be unique snowflakes makes the game interesting, because ultimately MMORPG is about people and role playing in a virtual world, not just killing bosses. By creating rare status items player gain sense of accomplishment and satisfaction by playing the game. That's how MMORPG works for ages.

Every time I see a top tier player playing their job, I always find it fun and exciting to see "I never thought this job can be played this way because I've never seen it before." THAT makes the game fun, and immersive. Unique snowflakes doesn't exist in other most other MMO, but it exist in FFXI, simply because certain gears or combination of gears in this game takes lonnnnng time to get and not everyone have them.

And just FYI, with wardrobe 3 and 4 are pretty much mandatory these days, FFXI currently cost $17 a month. By comparison many other MMO cost $10 to $12, most are free to play.

There's absolutely no reason to pay more to play a MMO that's same as FFXIV, or WoW, or GW2, or whatever that's currently on the market that cost less. And that's what you're trying to do currently, asking SE to change FFXI into the same game as everything else on the market.

Tl;dr: The idea of playing the game for 10hr and get an REMA makes the game utterly boring, that's why I'm against it. I have many gears that only takes 10hr to get, nothing feel quite the same as working on REMA for months and finally obtain them.