Game/Job balance suggestions

[Zeldar]

I don't know who you guys play with, but my LS still strongly supports COR and BRD, and even rolls with RDM occassionally. BRD has buffs that nobody has. COR has buffs that nobody has. Additionally, the buffs they have that say GEO also has, STACK with each other ! Sure, in a 6 man group it may be one or the other, in which case GEO gets the spot. In an alliance, a smart group is going to stack its buffs with multiple support per party. Also, I read above that "enfeebles don't matter." Tell that to someone fighting a peiste who NEEDS to be blinded, or a mage mob that is crippled by silence and addle. For a while, RDM couldn't land an enfeeble to save their lives on higher content, but they adjusted that. If your rdm enfeebles don't matter, your rdm is doing it wrong. I'm not saying the class doesn't need adjusted, but as usual, people are going way over the top to try to get their point across.

[OmnysValefor]

Yeah, Peiste has to be blinded, and the GEOs, BLMs, or SCHs can take care of that. Other than mechanic-requirements, enfeebles don't matter. It doesn't matter if it's Blind II or Blind again.

Next I'll say Ninja's not a tank anymore and you'll name of the 2-3 mobs in the game that Ninjas are actually preferable for.

Yes, GEO Focus/Languor stack with Threnodies, but threnodies are single element and when focus/languor are enough (which they usually are), there's no reason to bring a bard. As for Vex/Attune stacking with Carols, this is actually valid in cases where you really really want to guarantee a resist (say a charm) but not really huge beyond that.

Fade/Fend stack with Vex/Attune for general purposes better than carols because they cover all elements. Now, I haven't been in a situation where I've needed all four buffs but I'm putting that out there.

I'm not saying there aren't cases where GEO+(BRD or COR) are alright, but generally GEO + GEO usually is better.

If the GEO or SCH can land the silence, there's not reason to bring an RDM--if the boss is even silenceable which most are not.

So I say again, because the tank is usually the only thing in the boss's reach: Enfeebles don't matter, unless it's mechanically important to the fight.

[Vinedrai]

Skipped many of the last few pages, but refer to my OP. If RDM can cap magic haste, RDM will be a better addition than a 2nd GEO in just about any group in the game.

Um... No. Indi/Geo-Haste + Haste I = capped magic haste, so it wouldn't really matter if RDM was able to cap magic haste with a single spell. Only significant addition a RDM could bring is Frazzle II, but nobody would replace a GEO or a COR with a RDM just for that. If they give RDM one of mdef debuff, mab debuff, mab buff, macc buff etc. (assuming it wouldn't suck), only then I could see RDM being used instead of one of the GEOs in an end game alliance setyup.

[Zeldar]

Ugh, such a lack of vision. BRDs sing more than just carols......have you forgotten marches, minuets, and the other few dozen songs a brd has? Do you think that Flurry 2 and Haste 2 are equal to tier1 that can be used as rdm sub? Distract, Frazzle, Refresh, Para2, Slow2 (which DO land on most mobs)? In an 18 man alliance, If you dont have at least one brd or cor theres something seriously wrong in your planning. RDM can contribute to ANY fight. Am I saying they are preferable to GEO? Not a chance, but you arent going to put 6 GEOs in an alliance. Again, I'm not saying brd,cor or rdm would ever REPLACE geo , or take a geo spot in low man content. I'm saying that if you dont see the benefit in SUPPLEMENTING geo with other buffing jobs in an alliance fight, you are really missing out.

[Zeldar]

And if your tank doesnt see the benefit of debuffs on a mob, your tank is spoiled with an excellent healer. Paralyze2, slow2, blind2, bio3 all have SIGNIFICANT effects on how hard or how often your tank gets punched in the face. Speaking of tanking, no I'm not crazy enough to think NIN is relevant in any real content anymore.

[OmnysValefor]

Ugh, such a lack of vision. BRDs sing more than just carols......have you forgotten marches, minuets, and the other few dozen songs a brd has?

Nope, I was just trying to cover bard's unique buffs you mentioned ("BRD has buffs that nobody has. COR has buffs that nobody has."). Bard's minuets (edit: said marches, typo) and madrigals aren't as potent as GEO's. I think the only thing Bard does more potent is refresh. In cases like Fury, the comparison isn't even close.

Do you think that Flurry 2 and Haste 2 are equal to tier1 that can be used as rdm sub? Distract, Frazzle, Refresh, Para2, Slow2 (which DO land on most mobs)?

Of course t2s are more potent. I was just saying they're not so necessary much of the time. This isn't 2007, you don't hope Paralyze catches meteor, you vex or attune or against it.

In an 18 man alliance, If you dont have at least one brd or cor theres something seriously wrong in your planning.

I don't know about you, I don't find myself doing 18-man that often anymore.. It's not that i'm not killing things, it's that these things don't need 18 people and in fact are only made harder with the additional people.

Suppose you can kill something with

PLD, WHM, SCH, SCH, GEO, BLM. That's easy, the whm can take care of that group easily. If you add a another nuker, you run into two problems--

1.) Someone needs to watch out for the BLM. Maybe he WHM can do that, heck the tank can help (I do), or maybe you get an 8th person, a healer, to do that.
2.) The short-term buff NMs gain against nukes so that you can't just stack BLMs. You run into the question of whether the BLM is contributing as much as they're costing. A lot of times 2 BLMs meeting this resist will outdamage what one BLM would do. Three might not outdamage two.

You say "lack of vision", like FFXI is painting. It's not, it relies on cold math. There are best strategies for everything and frequently it's the same strategy. It's a shame, it truly is, but it's where the game is at.

I know all of the ways in which bard is strong (mobile, not mp-dependent, does have a few unique buffs like Scherzo*, light-sleep) but I also know why GEO is preferable. It's gross that 2 GEOs is so nice, and sometimes 3 GEO is. I can't say much for 4 GEO, but I'm rarely in groups big enough to utilize that many buffers. I could see how acc/-eva/+att/-def/vex/attune/barrier/wilt might be awesome though.

On the other hand, Scherzo is frustrating because a lot of moves go right past it because they're multi-hit attacks.

[Zeldar]

Well I do do alliance content quite a bit. I agree that, due to scaling, low-man is more desirable,and in such limited party space its a no-brainer that GEO gets the spot. I agree 100% that GEO is in a better spot than other support jobs. I agree that the other jobs need revamped. I don't agree that they are useless, which looking back, isn't what you were saying...its really in response to a post on the last page...lol. I also don't agree that debuffs usually don't matter. I can see where, if you play with a bad rdm, you won't really see the effect he has on a party. If you play with a rdm that is good at what he does, you'll see him curing, debuffing, buffing, nuking, Not using a sword in party darnit, and for the love of God subbing whm so he can cure your status ailments as well.

[Afania]

I'm not saying there aren't cases where GEO+(BRD or COR) are alright, but generally GEO + GEO usually is better.

As I said in previous page, in a melee setup, unless you need vex/attunement or DD isn't capping acc, this is just not true. There are only 2 GEO bubbles that directly improve DD output in hit rate capped situations, which is fury/frailty. If you roll with 2 GEO which bubble are you gonna use on 2nd GEO? While with COR in pt you can keep stacking more attack with chaos/dia 4 and improve TP gain past haste cap via SAM roll.

There IS a reason why majority of melee setup is BLU BLU GEO GEO COR WHM, with 2nd GEO being vex/attunement GEO but not DD buff GEO. If GEO+GEO is better for DPS then the popular setup would be BLU BLU GEO GEO GEO WHM instead.

GEO+COR is just better, in majority of situations. GEO+GEO is only useful IF you need vex/attunement, and even if you need 2nd GEO for vex/attunement, GEO GEO COR is still better.

[detlef]

So you're saying COR is better than a 2nd GEO in situations where you don't need to worry about hitting the mob or being hit by the mob. In such a situation it really seems like it doesn't matter what job you use. Is that something worth arguing about?

[OmnysValefor]

As I said in previous page, in a melee setup, unless you need vex/attunement or DD isn't capping acc, this is just not true. There are only 2 GEO bubbles that directly improve DD output in hit rate capped situations, which is fury/frailty. If you roll with 2 GEO which bubble are you gonna use on 2nd GEO? While with COR in pt you can keep stacking more attack with chaos/dia 4 and improve TP gain past haste cap via SAM roll.

No doubt, and BLU is preferable for that because they can achieve higher acc than any other melee with Accuracy Bonus V attainable and dex all over their gear (and even the modifier for their preferred ws). 2 BLUs also bring Haste II for themselves, fulltimeable, or nearly, MG (depending on merits) and Tenebral crush which stacks with Frailty.

Yeah in situations where your melee don't need more accuracy and aren't at any risk, a second GEO (indi-dex? lol) doesn't offer much. However, most fights are more dangerous to the melee than to the tank.

FFXIAH makes it seem like every melee has things like accuracy sets and what-not, and I wish that were the case, but many of the playing population end up needing Precision.