Game/Job balance suggestions

[Shyles]

Seriously, give it a rest. You've both made points I agree with, and both have made points I don't agree with. But this has devolved into a flame war that seems to be more of a contest of who can make their point in 900 words or more. I'm sure I'm not the only one that stopped reading a while ago. If you haven't made your points by now, then you're probably not going to.

If you're going to continue to argue, at least be courteous enough to keep them short. Otherwise, maybe bring up a different job balance topic to talk about.

[Hyrist]

Seriously, give it a rest. You've both made points I agree with, and both have made points I don't agree with. But this has devolved into a flame war that seems to be more of a contest of who can make their point in 900 words or more. I'm sure I'm not the only one that stopped reading a while ago. If you haven't made your points by now, then you're probably not going to.

If you're going to continue to argue, at least be courteous enough to keep them short. Otherwise, maybe bring up a different job balance topic to talk about.

Actually I rather liked his last post. This was more sharing information back and forth than arguing. Conversations, like players, can progress even through difficult stints with a bit of persistence and understanding.

[Olor]

My impression is that other than some misunderstandings folks have been respectful. Interesting convo!

[Thorva]

Yeah you are right. The game its fine

Its fine Geo made obsolete RDM, BRD and COR for support
iTs fine people use BLM - SCH - GEO to kill content LV135 +
Its fine mele jobs get one shoted on -50% damage taken reduction gear on content LV135+
Its fine since Rudra's storm update the two-handers, Ranger, MNK are obsolete jobs
Its fine the people shout for BLU only no matter if you have a mythic WAR, SAM or DRK.

So i hope square enix delay this fix for two hander jobs 2 or 3 years. So we can go down of 30k players to 5k anyways FF14 have nearly 800k players so the future of FF11 can go to the hell right? np!

My comment was about the "nothing beats blu in parse" crap, but let's take a look at your comment.

Also the "blu CDC spam" is an absolute terrible way to kill things, chaining your sc even 1 more step to a double light is a much faster kill speed. This was proven during the koga vs rudra times. Koga sam solo could kill faster than a thf spamming 30-50k rudra because of the sc dmg, a good sam was able to roll out 6step and hit 99999 light sc. The other option was for the sam and thf to work together to have thf close double darkness, those were far more effective ways to kill. Doesn't even need to end with cdc, when I drk and we take a blu I don't finish the ws even though I ws harder because the chain sc dmg does more with the blu closing with savage blade.

We ran VD ambuscade probably a few hundred times now, cdc and reso spam was literally the slowest run we had avg over 3 minute engage time per run. So we switched the dd to chain blu and drk ws with blu closing savage blade. Dropped our engaged time down to about 90 seconds. Then we switched to me solo on drk just running double light sc, scourge/reso/torc 3 times and killed it in about 60 seconds per engaged time. Seriously chain your ws, working together works far better than the lone ranger cdc spam. Sad, most blu don't even have AoE spells or nuke sets, can't tell you how many blu I have seen that ONLY have tp and cdc sets, no heal, no fast cast, no nuke sets, no idle, no -dt, just tp and cdc. People abusing a fighting style that isn't done right to begin with, much less not that grand.

If you are getting oneshotted on melee in -50% dt gear you shouldn't be messing with that content, you aren't ready for it. I seriously don't see how that is remotely possible to be oneshotted in -50 dt gear.

As for "mythic war, sam, drk" first off none of those jobs should be using mythic anymore. The speed of fights don't work with the need to build up AM3, secondly drk and war's best weapons is actually Ragnarok, relic, Sam should be using Aeonic or relic if the acc is needed. However you can get by and still do t3 reisenjima nms without r/e/m just take the time to build your gear for acc. I have personally pushed out 30k torcleaver before I made AG rag/apoc using macbain.

Mnk was never supposed to be a main DD, it wasn't designed that way, look at the job abilities of jobs and you will know what jobs are supposed to be on top.

Rng is not obsolete, make a trueflight set and get in a group with a cor, geo and a have each person pop AoE tp wings you can bomb things with trueflight.

Drg is shafted in dmg, my rdm/nin beats drg just spamming cdc/savage

Which is another problem enfeebling is utterly useless now, and with sch and blm getting myrkr there is no need for refresh 3. Nobody cares about haste 2 enough to bring a rdm, therefore rdm is shafted. However rdm may not be the best at any 1 thing, I have main healed (only healer) an ally on 128 incursion as rdm/sch, 132 main healed a vagary, if it is possible to heal 18 people in 128 I am sure a rdm can heal 135 content in a pt of 6. Rdm might not be the best nuker, but it can still hit 60k in decent gear, 70k+ in great gear. I wouldn't be surprised to see a rdm hit 80k+ honestly, and rdm gets extremely high m. acc. To top all that off, a r/e/m/a rdm can put out some serious dmg in melee, while they are not top dog in parse like war and drk are, they can spam the crap out of sc and MB off themselves and hit the 1200 acc everyone screams for so often. So rdm isn't entirely shafted.

Brd, well let's face it, the last time brd was used was when delve first came out, geo is the new brd and is seriously over powered. Very few complain about geo being needed for literally everything, and even more broken with idris.

Cor is not dead, in fact I got all my t3/4 wins on cor. Even WoC has cor's thrown at it all the time.

About 2 months ago I was hearing how my leveling drk and making rag/apoc was a waste of time, nothing beats a blu. I refused to believe it, now my ls only lets me come drk for more than half the content we do.

Yes I still have to get on sch for 145 content, some 135 content depending on who is online, but we have learned it is just as effective to super buff a sole 2hd DD and obliterate anything 135 and lower.

Yeah, it sucks I can't go drk and rdm to literally everything in the game, but I will stick to my guns in saying 2 months ago I sat in your seat saying the same thing, game is unfair, game is unbalanced. only blu, geo, sch, blm for all fights. Well that is only true on special occasions,
#1) you have a crappy group that you shouldn't be with that thinks only blu for dd
#2) you don't have good enough gear to be in the content level you are in
#3) 145+ content, (not much to say there, that is mage set up)

The only jobs truly getting shafted would be brd and drg. Maybe mnk, but mnk was designed as an eva/counter tank, the only jobs that can beat it in hp is hq sovereign pld/war or a drain 3 drk. Mnk was in the limelight as a DD for entirely too long, not even its role.

The only adjustments that are really lacking in endgame content is the nm eva or the nm AoE in 145 content, a way to bring back brd and raise on drg DD, while fixing rdm role back to enfeeble/enhance, spells like virus, plague, confuse, reflect would help here, but still needs a huge raise in enfeeble potency as well as the ability to land enfeebles without ele seal, 1600 m. acc a geo, rdm 1hr, sabo, elite level gear spamming immunobreak.

FF14 having 800k people I find hard to believe since they let slip about a year ago they were down to about 500k subscribers across 3 online games, that and more than 100k people were online streaming the future of ffxi back in march of last year I think it was (don't quote me on that date). Now while i doubt 100k people are on ffxi, I still would like to know where you got your numbers.

[OmnysValefor]

mnk was designed as an eva/counter tank, the only jobs that can beat it in hp is hq sovereign pld/war or a drain 3 drk. Mnk was in the limelight as a DD for entirely too long, not even its role.

Legitimately, what?

Hey, I loved counterstance at 75, but everybody I knew then called it trash but I don't recall monk tanking anything of note before Abyssea, besides Salvage. Unlike how somebody had to say in every party that "Ninja was supposed to be the DD, and SAM the tank".

It tanked abyssea because it did good damage, had the highest HP, people were starting to appreciate the value of counter, and Paladins couldn't hold hate. Towards mid-abyssea, a decent monk and whm could duo almost everything.

I started just before ToAU so I never got to play in a bones party, but I'm told monks tanked them (blunt damage, skeletons, good stuff).

The problem with Counterstance is and always was that you can't counter TP moves and have floored defense for said TP Moves so it was on luck or shadows whether you survived an attack outside abyssea.

Yeah, I've said a few times that one of my best memories was CS-tanking Charby on mnk/nin, but I didn't go there with the intent, the ninja was just really awfully bad. Even knowing that I could do it, I never went back with the intent to do it again.

[Zeldar]

Monk didnt just tank a bones party...they WERE the party...lol... 5 mnks and a rdm!

[Thorva]

Legitimately, what?

Hey, I loved counterstance at 75, but everybody I knew then called it trash but I don't recall monk tanking anything of note before Abyssea, besides Salvage. Unlike how somebody had to say in every party that "Ninja was supposed to be the DD, and SAM the tank".

It tanked abyssea because it did good damage, had the highest HP, people were starting to appreciate the value of counter, and Paladins couldn't hold hate. Towards mid-abyssea, a decent monk and whm could duo almost everything.

I started just before ToAU so I never got to play in a bones party, but I'm told monks tanked them (blunt damage, skeletons, good stuff).

The problem with Counterstance is and always was that you can't counter TP moves and have floored defense for said TP Moves so it was on luck or shadows whether you survived an attack outside abyssea.

Yeah, I've said a few times that one of my best memories was CS-tanking Charby on mnk/nin, but I didn't go there with the intent, the ninja was just really awfully bad. Even knowing that I could do it, I never went back with the intent to do it again.

I had this huge thing typed out going on and on about a bunch of crap, decided to delete it seemed a bit excessive.

Anyway, counterstance does suck, a mnk can tank just like anything else out there with -dt and enmity. Rdm did it wonderfully pre-tranq heart and can still do it with the right gear. Mnk does it fine with enmity gear and actions. People just naturally wore -dt gear on pld and not as much on mnk, therefore it only tanked in times were mnk could be considered op. I.E. Weakness to blunt, Abyssea, and Delve, abyssea due to atma, and delve due to mantra/formless strikes.

As for nin is a DD and sam is a tank, I have heard that myself, but truth be told I don't know about those, both have tank (shadows/third eye) and DD aspects to them (nin attack speed, ws and ability to MB, sam with sTP, ws spike dmg and chaining of ws)

I said mnk was in the limelight as a DD for far too long because it, like blu, shouldn't be competing with war, drk, drg for DD slots. War having customization choice to DD or tank.

[OmnysValefor]

Counterstance didn't suck, primarily because you can counter through shadows, just like you can parry through shadows.

The reason monk was a bad tank in most content at 75 is because you want defense you can rely on--you only gear chance stats once you're capped. IE, you only gear % absorbs/annuls magic damage once you're MDT capped. You only gear HP/Defense once you're PDT capped, when these respective types of damage are a concern.

At 75, and especially before late 75, the problem was that most -DT gear sucked. It sacrificed all other stats for abysmal numbers of -DT and usually it was just -PDT or MDT. Great, your "monk tank" is now pdt-capped (well, good PDT) but it can't hit so it's never going to hold hate (since damage done was part of monk's enmity).

Now, it's a different game. I don't know what monk can or cannot tank these days because I never see anyone good on it because the job is in a bad spot.

I think monk should be competitive with top-end DD now that the aby days are over (even though it was top DD and top tank in aby). I think, as I've said in other threads, it would be great to see it return as high damage-over-time, and while capable of ws'ing, made not ws-dependent. I think that would be good for the meta.

[Thorva]

Counterstance did suck, does suck and always will suck.

It did suck in the past because it was so entirely difficult to cap counter in the 75 era, while absolutely destroying your own def.
Currently sucks because even if you cap counter rate it won't do anything for the tp moves oh nms with much higher levels of attack and dmg with the def being so low.
Counterstance will always suck because SE won't remove the -def of it.

Counter by itself is great, but you can also rely on guarding. No need to put all your eggs in one basket. Want to tank on mnk, fine load up on enmity -dt gear and counter gear, no need to use counterstance. Just one of those abilities at is a waste. Same concept of why "drk always dies" or "drk always misses" that is only true if you play and gear to die and miss.

[OmnysValefor]

Counterstance did suck, does suck and always will suck.

It did suck in the past because it was so entirely difficult to cap counter in the 75 era, while absolutely destroying your own def.
Currently sucks because even if you cap counter rate it won't do anything for the tp moves oh nms with much higher levels of attack and dmg with the def being so low.
Counterstance will always suck because SE won't remove the -def of it.

Counter by itself is great, but you can also rely on guarding. No need to put all your eggs in one basket. Want to tank on mnk, fine load up on enmity -dt gear and counter gear, no need to use counterstance. Just one of those abilities at is a waste. Same concept of why "drk always dies" or "drk always misses" that is only true if you play and gear to die and miss.

See, I didn't and don't see it that way. So much of the stuff hit pld (unblocked, without -dt!) and a samurai or monk for the same amount of damage. Defense at 75 just wasn't an impressive stat against high level NMs (I still ate my tacos, used defender, made sure protect was on). TP moves were more dangerous but that's okay because monk was never meant to be a tank from anything I've ever heard. It was a great tank in Abyssea, but if enmity had worked in abyssea, people would have still liked to have PLDs and NINs there.

And of course, you didn't just throw up CS if you weren't the hate target. Served absolutely no good in that situation. Delve NMs? Was no need, and probably would have been a bad idea. But CS between 75 and Adoulin got a far worse wrap than it deserved.