PLD tanks Vs. MNK tanks *Ding* FIGHT!

[Billnye]

So lets just say they give pld an offensive overhaul that puts them on equal ground with other DD. Now what? We are back to the days of atonement. People will use pld that produces just about if not more damage than other jobs who's roles are to damage.

I posted a long drawn out thread:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...Better-Balance

In that thread, I try to show that if paladin become the next best DD, then your war, drks, drgs, sams, etc will be in the same place (if not already) as pld. Balance is a relative term. You don't want all jobs to do the same thing, instead you want all jobs to do their role equally and efficiently.

The root of the problem for paladin is clear: other jobs that specialize in different roles can tank better. Why pld when war can DD and Tank? My suggestion in that thread is simple, gives tanking a new approach, and more importantly balances jobs and encourages use of more jobs.

[Zagen]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...Better-Balance

Your solution is cover? So you want to tank by having another DD who is capped on hate hide behind you? Dunno to me that doesn't make you a tank.

Also how does that make the cover target lose any hate at all, after all VE will be recapping from melee hits and CE will stay capped? Sounds broken to me even compared to making PLD a stronger DD to keep up with the other DDs. I mean you could equip -50PDT/MDT/DT as needed since if you use Gallant Coronet magic attacks hit you too. So you become the "Oh crap" gear for the DD while they get to keep on their DD gear.

[Billnye]

Your solution is cover? So you want to tank by having another DD who is capped on hate hide behind you? Dunno to me that doesn't make you a tank.

Also how does that make the cover target lose any hate at all, after all VE will be recapping from melee hits and CE will stay capped? Sounds broken to me even compared to making PLD a stronger DD to keep up with the other DDs. I mean you could equip -50PDT/MDT/DT as needed since if you use Gallant Coronet magic attacks hit you too. So you become the "Oh crap" gear for the DD while they get to keep on their DD gear.

Elaborate on what tank means to you. To me, as wrote out in that thread, tanking involves two roles: Manipulating damage output and controlling damage output. By extending the duration of cover to 5 mins with recast of 30 sec, you can fulfill both roles while still being "wanted" in a party. Manipulate damage output via -pdt/-mdt/-dt gear, shield blocks, job abilities, etc. Control damage output not by being "capped on hate" but by relying on others to cap hate and diverting that attention onto the pld through cover.

As for being "broken", it is far from broken. Cover has too many checks to have it be 100% broken. You have to stand in front of target, you can only have one target, and it can be dispelled. Add in also a large majority of TP moves from NMs are AOE not single target, extended cover would not break the game.

[Karbuncle]

So lets just say they give pld an offensive overhaul that puts them on equal ground with other DD. Now what? We are back to the days of atonement. People will use pld that produces just about if not more damage than other jobs who's roles are to damage.

I posted a long drawn out thread:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...Better-Balance

In that thread, I try to show that if paladin become the next best DD, then your war, drks, drgs, sams, etc will be in the same place (if not already) as pld. Balance is a relative term. You don't want all jobs to do the same thing, instead you want all jobs to do their role equally and efficiently.

The root of the problem for paladin is clear: other jobs that specialize in different roles can tank better. Why pld when war can DD and Tank? My suggestion in that thread is simple, gives tanking a new approach, and more importantly balances jobs and encourages use of more jobs.

Hmmm, Maybe I have failed to put my point across. I apologize for the confusion this must be causing you.

I did not mean to imply PLD had to become the BEST dd in the game ever, Completely shitting over other DDs. I simply suggest a means to make PLD as good or slightly less than current DD. Basically, If you put a good MNK, and a God WAR together, They'll probably go Neck-in-neck, But both are still used.

If you put a good NIN and a good THF competing in tanking/DD, they'll go neck and neck probably, yet both are still used.

One job becoming better does not Always obsolete other jobs. PLD just became absolutely obsoleted because it, while a good tank, was left behind in terms of Damage output, it got left REALLY far behind, And todays FFXI players prefer the means of Speed and efficiency over a safety net with PLD. DDs are smarter, MP is more readily available, etc, etc.

PLD Even got an Atonement nerf in Abyssea, Most NMs take only 50% Damage from Atonement. Why? IHNC, but thankfully even without the Nerf It would pale to Vorpal blade with RR/etc, So its not a big deal, Its just always peeved me that they nerfed atonement in abyssea.


So what I'm trying to say, Is Simply give PLD enough offensive capabilities to where, If pitted against a THF, MNK, WAR, NIN, something that tanks today of Equal gear and Intelligence, It could be able to at the very least keep up in parse with them to an Extent, to about ~10% difference in Damage.

If the Above jobs can Tank as good as PLD, in some cases better, There is no reason a PLD should not be able to keep up with them in damage too.

We already have A+ Sword and A lot of good Melee gear available, Vorpal blade is a good start but its simply not good enough. I'd stick by my proposed ideas. Giving PLD a Counter-Effect on Shield Blocks (~25%), Re-making Swift blade to have a Higher fTP and higher mods, as well as making it Critical hit based would really help (Don't make it as powerful as CDC as it would obsolete it for PLD, But near as strong is good).

Give PLD access to more offensive JA/spells. Perhaps a JA That, While surpressing your Ability to Self-Buff (locks Shell/Protect/Enlight/phalanx/etc), It could increase your likely hood of attacking twice by 25%. (dur 5 min, recast 1 min)

Maybe Rework Enlight to add a Store TP Effect Similar to the Accuracy effect. +50 (with hit) Degrading over each hit like the Damage. Would help it WS more.

Perhaps you could even add a Job Trait, I won't bother trying to name it, That after Each Shield Block, Will raise your Accuracy, Attack, Critical hit Rate, and Critical hit Damage by 1% (to a maximum of +15% each). Resetting after the Enemy is defeated. It could even be a Job Ability. Even though it would take ~15 Shield blocks to reach maximum, and would for that reason only shine during longer NM fights, It'd still be a readily increases damage output.

Edit: and on the Subject of the Cover Debate, It sounds like a good Idea in Theory, But even if PLD could cover anyone anytime, People will likely still not bring it, Because you could just replace the PLD with another DD tank, Kill the mob quicker, and Still be as safe as with the PLD. It just would not be enough to get PLD a spot in the party. Even if he could run around in full DT covering whoever, I, personally as an opinion, do not believe it will draw enough attention to PLD to get it into the main-stream tanking again if it still falls behind in terms of Damage. Most people with opt for the Heavier DD.

[Amoklauf]

All of the official forums suffers of too much "the only solution is..." and too little spitballing. Some of the ideas are good, but people 100% convinced that they have "the answer" usually end up arguing and it degenerates the discussion.

Personally, I wish people would talk more about the general direction jobs/the game should go in. As in, my opinion on the direction PLD changes should go in:
- a way to translate their defense/survivability into damage (reprisal tried to do it, but it's no reflect) so that stacking up on defense doesn't mean making the fight longer. Especially with certain NM's getting stronger over time, I believe that's the reason MNK's NIN's and even WAR's have become preferred "tanks".
- more shield related stuff so that people don't miss DW and the gap between aegis, ochain and the rest of the available shields is closed. (seems like there's a bigger difference there than any of the weapons and the next best thing)

Leave it to SE to come up with the specifics.

[vileragnorok]

I remember a time when monks fear was being one shoted.They built tp on the side lines to come raise hell when the mobs hp was below 75%. My how the tides have turned,the months of campain battle wasted for the gear plds needed to be successful.I feel pity for the plds who took the time for burtgang and aegis to sit on the sidelines. The challenge of the game is gone. The years i spent wasted on the tanking role i took, thanks SE.

[Zagen]

Elaborate on what tank means to you. To me, as wrote out in that thread, tanking involves two roles: Manipulating damage output and controlling damage output. By extending the duration of cover to 5 mins with recast of 30 sec, you can fulfill both roles while still being "wanted" in a party. Manipulate damage output via -pdt/-mdt/-dt gear, shield blocks, job abilities, etc. Control damage output not by being "capped on hate" but by relying on others to cap hate and diverting that attention onto the pld through cover.

A Tank to me is someone who will make sure they fully or for the majority of the time fully keep the attention of a monster.

Your solution is to make someone else do that and you cover them. Effectively meaning they will be taking much less damage and in some cases none at all since you're soaking it up for them.

As for being "broken", it is far from broken. Cover has too many checks to have it be 100% broken. You have to stand in front of target, you can only have one target, and it can be dispelled. Add in also a large majority of TP moves from NMs are AOE not single target, extended cover would not break the game.

If your target is the DD that is keeping their hate capped then why would it matter you only have 1 target?

Unless you are fighting a mob that has a strong Regain then you shouldn't get spammed with TP moves and even then the DD you're covering will recap that hate lost really quickly.

Maybe you don't have Stun to stop spells or the mob is resistant but that isn't the case a lot of the time.

As to being dispelled unless a monster has add effect dispel on melee hits, I've never come across a monster that spams dispel TP moves or spells in under 30 seconds.

[Karumac]

Giant. Flaming. Z.

[Karbuncle]

Chant Du Sygne is still not enough to make a PLD using over a MNK, WAR, THF, NIN, etc with equal gear and Intelligence. It'll make that great PLD better than terrible/Mediocre/Average DDs, But it will not make it strong enough to be used effectively.

I'm trying to speak well when i say this, I'm not trying to be a downer or denote PLD over-all, But as of right now, Even with Chant-Du-sygne, They cannot preform in the DD Department as good as other main-stream DD of equal intelligence and gear. If you put an Ukon War vs a Almace PLD, the Ukon WAR will smash the PLD. if you put a Vereth MNK and a Almace PLD, the MNk will smash the PLD.

If you put a Kannagi NIN vs Almace PLD, You see my point. If a PLD vs a Player of Equal gear and Intelligence are placed together, more times than not the PLD will not out DD them, and in some cases, will not even out-tank them. PLD does need more offensive abilities that does not limit to being forced to own an Empyrean to half-perform (Ochain/Almace). On its own it should be able to Tank great, and DD with the best of them.

Almace/Chant is an Absolutely brilliant combo for PLD, It does take its DD up a huge step, But what point I'm trying to convey is that the damage increase from the above isn't enough to make it stand out as a tank in the midst of the current DDtanks. Plus requiring a Empyrean to be good Isn't fair to the job either


PLD needs to go in the direction of "Okay, We're good on Defensive abilities, We can add those in sparce, but we need to buff up PLDs offensive abilities so it can walk in the direction of a DDtank, Like it should be". If people ever what the job to be useful again they need to stop thinking of PLD from some D&D Roleplay Knight-in-Shinning-armor standpoint that just screams "DONT WORRY MAIDEN, I'LL COVER YOU".

PLD needs to be as good offensive as it is defensive. Slightly better in defense, Heavily on Offense, This will make the job more appealing as long as it can keep up with Current DDtanks, and offer more to the table (added protection/cure spells, Reprisal and (myidea) Shield-counter damage mitigation) etc, this will make it a bit better.

Adding the idea to be able to Cover more often (maybe 45sec Dur, 1min recast on the off chance you lose hate (Hate reset mobs?) would also be a unique aspect to PLD. No other DDtank has the ability to do this (THF on a small level, with Coll/acompl), Which in itself (If PLD is upgraded in the DD department to be effective with or without an Empyrean) would give PLD a use in some situations.

Theres not so much wrong with PLD, it has the right basics, A+ Skill, DD Gear, Good Weapnskills, it just lacks offensive Job Abilities and Job traits to make those skills really shine. It just needs a little tweaking in the right direction and i think PLD could be a good job again.

We just have to wait and see :|

[LeaderofAtlantis]

PLD should NOT be on par with DD classes in damage. This is the same stuff I hear from THFs too. I'll say the same thing here that I said there - there's plenty of jobs that are DDs. If you want to be a DD, pick one of them. They each specialize in a form of DD so there's enough variety to go around.

PLDs defense and enmity grabbing capabilities need a boost. The PLD's HP should be second only to a MNK's, that's fine, but who cares if a MNK has 3k+ HP if, on unblocked hits, they're taking 200-250 dmg from non criticals whereas a PLD, with around 2k HP is only taking 50 dmg from those same kind of unblocked hits. Maybe not that dramatic of a difference in HP or damage taken, but you get the idea.