The importance of job points

[Alhanelem]

No, I just possess adequate mental faculties to recognize a trend that hasn't changed in over ten years of FFXI.

Like the trend of merit point abilities being required? Nobody ever really complained about that, so there's no reason to complain about it now. The only basis for the complining i see currently is "But SE said JP/gifts were going to be a minor thing!" - and this is really the only valid reason to complain, because they said one thing and maybe (i dont really agree) did another. If they never said that, there would be zero basis for the complaint, as it is extremely obvious that job points are a character progression/customization system, just as merit points were, so its not fair to complain about things that are common to both now when they didn't complain in the merit point days.

[FrankReynolds]

Like the trend of merit point abilities being required? Nobody ever really complained about that, so there's no reason to complain about it now. The only basis for the complining i see currently is "But SE said JP/gifts were going to be a minor thing!" - and this is really the only valid reason to complain, because they said one thing and maybe (i dont really agree) did another. If they never said that, there would be zero basis for the complaint, as it is extremely obvious that job points are a character progression/customization system, just as merit points were, so its not fair to complain about things that are common to both now when they didn't complain in the merit point days.

Really? People never complained about merits? Seriously? So you're telling me that if I go to any FFXI fan site that there aren't going to be hundreds of old threads full of people complaining about how only four jobs ever get invited to merit parties and what a pain in the ass it was to get merits on just about anything but red mage, samurai, dragoon or bard? I just imagined myself going bard and red mage to merit parties for like 8 years? That didn't happen?

Because I could have sworn that people were complaining about that stuff a lot, for years. And that was with a system where you could actually earn the points for all your jobs on whatever job that people wanted you to be on.

Or did you mean that there weren't thousands of posts about how XXXX job is required to have some crappy skill merited that they really don't like using? Or how they have to sacrifice skill on the job they like because everyone expects them to put the merits in some other job they hate? Because I'm pretty sure that there has been plenty of complaining about the merit system.

I'm pretty sure that I've seen you posting in some of those very same threads quite a bit...

[PlumbGame]

Really? People never complained about merits? Seriously? So you're telling me that if I go to any FFXI fan site that there aren't going to be hundreds of old threads full of people complaining about how only four jobs ever get invited to merit parties and what a pain in the ass it was to get merits on just about anything but red mage, samurai, dragoon or bard? I just imagined myself going bard and red mage to merit parties for like 8 years? That didn't happen?

Because I could have sworn that people were complaining about that stuff a lot, for years. And that was with a system where you could actually earn the points for all your jobs on whatever job that people wanted you to be on.

Or did you mean that there weren't thousands of posts about how XXXX job is required to have some crappy skill merited that they really don't like using? Or how they have to sacrifice skill on the job they like because everyone expects them to put the merits in some other job they hate? Because I'm pretty sure that there has been plenty of complaining about the merit system.

I'm pretty sure that I've seen you posting in some of those very same threads quite a bit...

There was 1 period in time when people preferred X jobs for BIRD parties. Merits existed outside this time frame and smart people knew of many different merit spots than just birds to satisfy their merit hunger. Just because you didn't know about them doesn't mean they didn't exist. I knew of several party setups that existed in things like trolls, you have blm burn parties on puddings etc... Hell, I knew many many MANY people not using ideal setups for bird parties and still doing merits at the same rate.

Anyways, more fallacies, again, to support your ignorant claims/stances. Sadly I'm starting to get confused a bit on your stance because you seem to just be arguing for the sake or arguing now. Fact is realistic time frames have been given and many people with 100s of JPs have given their 2 cents on how easy they are to obtain already in all actuality. So your points are pretty moot there, unless you are talking about wanting to gain JPs solo and just as fast across the board on all jobs, I would have to remind you this is an MMO where usually you play with other people. Hard idea right?

Again, JPs have not been needed, are not needed, and as far as our knowledge will still not be needed to clear content. Unless magically the alluvion skirmish coming out for yorcia requires only blms with new tier spells, which I'm pretty confident to say will not be required, which was really the basis of the most recent arguments was not having access to these new tier spells. That being said, there has also been SIGNIFICANT amount of time with SEVERAL double CP campaigns to save up enough jps etc. You should shoot SE an email and ask them to lvl your jobs to 99 for choosing to do something like dyna with the time available to play the game. This seems to be the direction of your fallacies. Maybe while you are at it you can get a free relic or a mythic. Maybe you tell them you spend so much time farming alex you haven't been able to farm dyna, so you shouldn't have to work for a relic.

[FrankReynolds]

There was 1 period in time when people preferred X jobs for BIRD parties. Merits existed outside this time frame and smart people knew of many different merit spots than just birds to satisfy their merit hunger. Just because you didn't know about them doesn't mean they didn't exist. I knew of several party setups that existed in things like trolls, you have blm burn parties on puddings etc... Hell, I knew many many MANY people not using ideal setups for bird parties and still doing merits at the same rate.

Heh... So I guess by saying that you knew how to merit better than me, that's supposed to somehow erase all those complaints from all those people over all those years huh? Just by saying that, it somehow means that they were all really satisfied and happy? Interesting logic... Terrible, but interesting.

For what it's worth, I had WHM, BRD, SAM, MNK, RDM, NIN and WAR with capped merits and all relevant HNM / endgame gear with the exception of relics on my main character and a second character (The one I play now since I lost my original JP Character) with RDM, BLM, WHM, BLU, DNC, THF, MNK, BST and NIN and most end game gear and merits as well back at 75 cap so you can save the tough talk.

But, skill level or knowledge is irrelevant. The fact is that thousands of people did have a problem with the merit system. Myself included. Just because I was good at it doesn't mean that I liked it.

Anyways, more fallacies, again, to support your ignorant claims/stances.

I don't think that word means what you think it means. See implying that me not being good at XXXX activity somehow means that thousands of people collectively lied about not liking that activity for for years for no reason is a logical fallacy. Me sucking at the game doesn't have anything to do with other peoples enjoyment of the merit system.

Sadly I'm starting to get confused a bit on your stance because you seem to just be arguing for the sake or arguing now. Fact is realistic time frames have been given and many people with 100s of JPs have given their 2 cents on how easy they are to obtain already in all actuality.

I could say that "getting rich as a plus size model in a panda bear costume for Superbowl beer commercials is easy! I did it and you can too!". Hell, it might even actually be easy. But that doesn't mean that people are going to run out, buy a panda suit and quit their day jobs. Telling people something is easy doesn't make them hate it any less. Again, look up the meaning of fallacy.

So your points are pretty moot there, unless you are talking about wanting to gain JPs solo and just as fast across the board on all jobs, I would have to remind you this is an MMO where usually you play with other people. Hard idea right?

Again. Telling people to just go get some friends isn't going to make it happen. You seem to have a really difficult time differentiating between what you think people should do and what people actually want / can do.

Again, JPs have not been needed, are not needed, and as far as our knowledge will still not be needed to clear content. Unless magically the alluvion skirmish coming out for yorcia requires only blms with new tier spells, which I'm pretty confident to say will not be required, which was really the basis of the most recent arguments was not having access to these new tier spells.

Right.... So in the future, they will just keep making us more powerful with job points, but they will keep the content the same level. That way everything will be super easy. Okay. That sounds plausible.

That being said, there has also been SIGNIFICANT amount of time with SEVERAL double CP campaigns to save up enough jps etc. You should shoot SE an email and ask them to lvl your jobs to 99 for choosing to do something like dyna with the time available to play the game. This seems to be the direction of your fallacies. Maybe while you are at it you can get a free relic or a mythic. Maybe you tell them you spend so much time farming alex you haven't been able to farm dyna, so you shouldn't have to work for a relic.

Or maybe I just tell them that I don't like the job point system.

Because all that other nonsense that you just said... wait for it... logical fallacies. Me not wanting to farm JP doesn't mean that you work harder than me or that I want everything for free or that I am lazy. It means exactly what I said. I don't like the JP system.

[PlumbGame]

fal·la·cy
ˈfaləsē/
noun
noun: fallacy; plural noun: fallacies

a mistaken belief, especially one based on unsound argument.
"the notion that the camera never lies is a fallacy"
synonyms: misconception, misbelief, delusion, mistaken impression, error, misapprehension, misinterpretation, misconstruction, mistake; More
untruth, inconsistency, myth
"the fallacy that the sun moves round the earth"
Logic
a failure in reasoning that renders an argument invalid.
faulty reasoning; misleading or unsound argument.
"the potential for fallacy which lies behind the notion of self-esteem"




Do you even read what you right? You just compared 11 to the superbowl? You also stated you need friends to apparently exp? Is this RL? This guy for real?

[FrankReynolds]

Do you even read what you right? You just compared 11 to the superbowl?

You get to learn all sorts of new words today. Congratulations!

"hy·per·bo·le
hīˈpərbəlē/Submit
noun
exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally."

A good way to think of a hyperbole’s usage is to imagine it going through a realm of impossibility to reach possibility. (J. Ritter) As an example we can look at an exaggeration such as, “The class felt like it was six thousand hours long.” In reality, no class is six thousand hours long, but through the context the reader can understand that the speaker is telling them that the class felt extremely long. Through that same example, the theory that a hyperbole is inserting a lie on a set of truths is very easily understandable as well. The six thousand hours exaggeration is a lie that was entered into the context, which was otherwise true.

You also stated you need friends to apparently exp? Is this RL? This guy for real?

I would have to remind you this is an MMO where usually you play with other people. Hard idea right?

[PlumbGame]

Bad analogies are bad.

[Kensagaku]

At what point does a discussion about a game mechanic turn people to do little besides insult one another? It's been pretty predominant in this thread of late, and it's gone from a debate to a series of personal attacks. Chill, and remember that it's a game.

As for the JP system, to an extent I like what it is. Is it time-consuming? Sure. It's way improved from initial, though, where most of your choices were 2-400 CP/kill at Outer Ra'Kaznar and parties at 1-2 Woh Gates camps, maybe a shot at Dho. Now there are the subgates, where with a chain and a CP mantle (and there's no excuse if you don't do Incursion now, there's a crafted one) you can see up to 6-700 in a chain, and more with a CP ring, which is available via easily-farmed sparks. Four zones, and I'm fairly certain there are decent camps in them. I've only farmed in Dho and Woh subgates myself because usually one or the other is open, so I can't say 100%, but I'm pretty sure there are camps in the other two.

One improvement I think that would make the system nicer is to either make the CP Bonus Gifts a little more potent (say 10% each one, versus 5%, which really adds to the incentive to farm at least a few JP to get some early-on CP Gifts) or else make them a bit more frequent. A lot of gifts have a 5-JP gap between them, though there are some larger gaps where there is possibility for more. Likely these are actually set aside for future gifts like JAs, JTs, and spells, but we never know until they are actually filled. I think improving the rate at which players can... well, improve the rate of CP gaining would likely help those who have little time but a desire to get some JP without hindering those who choose to take more time doing JP and get a lot more for it.

[PlumbGame]

Because all that other nonsense that you just said... wait for it... logical fallacies. Me not wanting to farm JP doesn't mean that you work harder than me or that I want everything for free or that I am lazy. It means exactly what I said. I don't like the JP system.

TLDR; there are thousands of reason why people quit and yours is probably pretty low on that list.

I used to play like 8+ hours a day back when the game came out (been playing since JP release). The game was tedious and annoying, but I really didn't have much else to do when I got off work at midnight and I lived at my moms house. Now I don't even get to play a lot of days. On the other hand, I used to live at my moms house, work late and get paid crap. Now I have a hot wife, a huge house (and a couple vacation homes) and an @ $500k income. I also have a crapload more games to play now. FFXI has gotten a lot better, or I would have cancelled it a long time ago. So, no. Saying that the game was better back then and that is why people quit is not warranted.

As I'm sure you already know, 99% of the stuff that was in the game back then is still in the game now. If you / they really liked the game the way it was, you'd still be playing it that way.

It's not black and white. Just because people don't like the way something has changed doesn't necessarily mean that they liked the way it was before either.





This seems to be the argument in every thread on this forum.

"Oh, you don't like the way XXXX works? You just want everything handed to you!"

I don't really see how you can say that something is super easy and shouldn't be changed without admitting that you yourself enjoy hand outs. If you honestly don't think that earning JPs is difficult, then why do you care what happens to them at all? Do you enjoy things that aren't challenging? Are handouts only okay when they work for you?

Hmm the implication here, so which is it? You are lazy or you aren't lazy?

[PlumbGame]

At what point does a discussion about a game mechanic turn people to do little besides insult one another? It's been pretty predominant in this thread of late, and it's gone from a debate to a series of personal attacks. Chill, and remember that it's a game.

As for the JP system, to an extent I like what it is. Is it time-consuming? Sure. It's way improved from initial, though, where most of your choices were 2-400 CP/kill at Outer Ra'Kaznar and parties at 1-2 Woh Gates camps, maybe a shot at Dho. Now there are the subgates, where with a chain and a CP mantle (and there's no excuse if you don't do Incursion now, there's a crafted one) you can see up to 6-700 in a chain, and more with a CP ring, which is available via easily-farmed sparks. Four zones, and I'm fairly certain there are decent camps in them. I've only farmed in Dho and Woh subgates myself because usually one or the other is open, so I can't say 100%, but I'm pretty sure there are camps in the other two.

One improvement I think that would make the system nicer is to either make the CP Bonus Gifts a little more potent (say 10% each one, versus 5%, which really adds to the incentive to farm at least a few JP to get some early-on CP Gifts) or else make them a bit more frequent. A lot of gifts have a 5-JP gap between them, though there are some larger gaps where there is possibility for more. Likely these are actually set aside for future gifts like JAs, JTs, and spells, but we never know until they are actually filled. I think improving the rate at which players can... well, improve the rate of CP gaining would likely help those who have little time but a desire to get some JP without hindering those who choose to take more time doing JP and get a lot more for it.

Sorry, it just gets to the point when does the brick wall listen and stop spewing nonsense. You try to phrase things without literately calling them an idiot but then they just don't get it. Usually discussions result in heated sides because you get passionate people about a subject, in this case, people passionate about the JP system not just giving everything away to people who only have roughly 20 total JPs since the system was implemented because they openly admit they want handouts.