Do you think one day there will be a MMORPG where helping others....

[Dale]

Have you realized that you're doing the exact same thing as ppl you disapproved of?

I only bash those who bash others first. And feel wholly justified in doing so.

If you just sit back and allow players to treat others like crap without acting on their behalf then you may as well be complicit it in. I'm a firm believer in giving people what they dish out. Often times it's the only way they will learn.

Players who make fun of other players deserve to be made fun of themselves. They need to know how it feels.

[Afania]

I only bash those who bash others first. And feel wholly justified in doing so.

If you just sit back and allow players to treat others like crap without acting on their behalf then you may as well be complicit it in. I'm a firm believer in giving people what they dish out. Often times it's the only way they will learn.

Players who make fun of other players deserve to be made fun of themselves. They need to know how it feels.

I don't agree with you lol, or else I'd personal attack at least 5 person in this thread. If I bash others because I feel like I have right to, I'd just proved that I'm the same type of person....."feel wholly justified in doing so".

Those who feel "superior" and act with disrespect, they aren't going to change nor learn just because you bash them back. Since they bash others because they're superior, how are you going to make them feel bad unless you can prove that you're better than them? You can't. If you tell them "you suck cuz you die", they're only going to reply with "cuz your mage suck". Nothing will change.

I have some friends who are like that, often bash newer players, with 0 tolerance toward their mistakes. I didn't bash them, I just be friends with them by trying to play equally good and earned their trust. But if I get a chance I tell them "Stop being mean! They'll feel bad!". They won't change at first, but slowly they start to change.

After 5 years of playing FFXI, I've seen many ppl bash others for various reasons, I've never see anyone change for the better because someone else bash them back or make fun of them. I've only seen ppl change because their friends show them that they can be good and treat others with respect.

[Dale]

I don't agree with you lol, or else I'd personal attack at least 5 person in this thread. If I bash others because I feel like I have right to, I'd just proved that I'm the same type of person....."feel wholly justified in doing so".

Those who feel "superior" and act with disrespect, they aren't going to change nor learn just because you bash them back. Since they bash others because they're superior, how are you going to make them feel bad unless you can prove that you're better than them? You can't. If you tell them "you suck cuz you die", they're only going to reply with "cuz your mage suck". Nothing will change.

I have some friends who are like that, often bash newer players, with 0 tolerance toward their mistakes. I didn't bash them, I just be friends with them by trying to play equally good and earned their trust. But if I get a chance I tell them "Stop being mean! They'll feel bad!". They won't change at first, but slowly they start to change.

After 5 years of playing FFXI, I've seen many ppl bash others for various reasons, I've never see anyone change for the better because someone else bash them back or make fun of them. I've only seen ppl change because their friends show them that they can be good and treat others with respect.

We just fundamentally disagree that bullying the bully makes you a bully. But we all have our own sense of individual morality, so I can respect that's the way you feel. But when I make fun of someone because they are making fun of someone else - to me that is righteous and giving that person what they deserve. So I don't see it as me becoming the same type of person. I just see it as dishing out some justice.

Now you may be right when you say it won't change that person. Many people will never change no matter what. So I'll concede that part of your argument. And perhaps your softer more gradual approach would be more effective in some cases. But I still maintain that the offending person needs to be on the receiving end of what he or she is giving to others. That's just how I am made. And I would feel guilty inside if I behaved any differently.

[mattkoko]

I believe there to be a a very thin line between elitism and arrogance - if indeed there is one there at all. So if you are more comfortable with me calling it arrogance I'll be more than happy to accommodate you.

Aww well that is sweet of you (being a smart ass here). You do not need to accommodate me. I am not a child.

[mattkoko]

We just fundamentally disagree that bullying the bully makes you a bully. But we all have our own sense of individual morality, so I can respect that's the way you feel. But when I make fun of someone because they are making fun of someone else - to me that is righteous and giving that person what they deserve. So I don't see it as me becoming the same type of person. I just see it as dishing out some justice.

Now you may be right when you say it won't change that person. Many people will never change no matter what. So I'll concede that part of your argument. And perhaps your softer more gradual approach would be more effective in some cases. But I still maintain that the offending person needs to be on the receiving end of what he or she is giving to others. That's just how I am made. And I would feel guilty inside if I behaved any differently.

I am not going to go as far as saying that bullying the bully makes you a bully. Though I understand it feels good to get back at someone, when I see someone get picked on in party or ls, I personally focus on the person that is on the receiving end by either encouraging or comforting them. I agree with Afania that fighting back with someone just turns into a bickering match. 9/10 these people do not change if you just dish it back to them. I have found 2 different approaches much more helpful and they work much more often in my experience.

First approach, try to calm the situation down. Now I know every situation is different so this may not always work obviously. But making the person saying hurtful things realize what he/she is doing and saying, may help them come to an understanding and you could even get an apology out in the end. Maybe this person just had a bad day and lashed out. You never know. Like I said though, every situation is different. You may think, "jeez what are the chances of that happening," but there is a much better chance of that happening then insulting the bully into submission. No one listens to each other in a shouting match.

The second approach (could also be combined with the first approach and in my opinion is recommended either way) is to have a talk with the person(s) that is the victim. Make sure the victim is alright, comfort them, say don't listen to him/her he/she is just an ass, etc. Not everyone can handle insults. Especially if this person is suffering from depression or has low self-confidence. If you start exchanging insults with the person that is being a bully, you could actually make it worse for the victim (especially if you fight in party or ls chat). They may think, "great now there is a fight because I couldn't do my job right and I suck." Results could be quitting their job they attempted to come as, quitting the ls, quitting the game or even more extreme measures. As I mentioned a few posts back. Everyone has their story. Yeah this bully could have made the victim feel horrible. But if you encourage the victim and take their side and give them tips, you could give them confidence and help improve their skills with said job. Plus, you will also prove to be the more mature person and others may actually look up to you.

Now, if someone feels the need to insult me for whatever reason, I admit, I used to dish it back (in /tells) however, I am at the point in my life where I really don't give a crap of what people think of me. My position is, they don't know me so all it is, is talking out of their ass with empty insults. Although I don't agree with your way of handling it, if they are insulting you, handle it however you want. If insulting them back makes you feel better and like a bigger person, be my guest. Insult until your heart's content (as long as it is in /tells). However, if they insult someone else, think before you choose what course of action to take. Firing back could make matters worse for everyone (especially the victim). If you show your support and encouragement to the victim and make them feel better, there is nothing to feel guilty about.

[Dale]

Aww well that is sweet of you (being a smart ass here). You do not need to accommodate me. I am not a child.

You took that in the wrong way. I accommodate people all the time and it doesn't mean I am treating them like a child. I was just trying to be agreeable and compromised to use a word to describe my feelings that you thought was more accurate and I was ok with using.

I would try and be less defensive.

[Dale]

Now, if someone feels the need to insult me for whatever reason, I admit, I used to dish it back (in /tells) however, I am at the point in my life where I really don't give a crap of what people think of me. My position is, they don't know me so all it is, is talking out of their ass with empty insults. Although I don't agree with your way of handling it, if they are insulting you, handle it however you want. If insulting them back makes you feel better and like a bigger person, be my guest. Insult until your heart's content (as long as it is in /tells). However, if they insult someone else, think before you choose what course of action to take. Firing back could make matters worse for everyone (especially the victim). If you show your support and encouragement to the victim and make them feel better, there is nothing to feel guilty about.

It's usually when I see someone insulting someone else that I get involved. I don't really care what some arrogant stranger on the internet thinks of me. But I'm not just going to sit idly by and say nothing when I see some arrogant player trashing another player just because of the job they chose.

And unless I fire back I'm not exactly sure how I am suppose to show support and encouragement to the victim. Because sending them a private tell saying it'll be ok and not to feel bad isn't going to cut it and would feel cowardly to me.