Do you think one day there will be a MMORPG where helping others....

[mattkoko]

OP raged because my post are considered "trolling and off topic" to him, I wonder why he didn't rage at you.

Double standard I suppose.

What I find funny is the OP said he would report anyone that is off topic (even though this thread has been off topic from post one since it is not suppose to be about FFXI) and she would report anyone that makes personal attacks. Then he calls you troll fingers and singles you out personally multiple times. Now if that is not a personal attack, idk what is. So Spectreman, you made a personal attack. Report yourself at once!

And speaking of personal attacks, Zachery, your beard is ugly and it pisses me off. Shave it now! I know this may get me reported but since this entire thread was a joke to begin with, I figured wtf, might as well have some fun.

[mattkoko]

I've been in similar positions during my time in quite a few other mmorpgs over the years and honestly... no, my opinion wasn't any different after those experiences. At the end of the day, it's just a video game. It's here for fun and relaxation. As soon as people start turning it into some kind of e-sport -- where winning is everything, and all else takes a back seat -- that's when I start scratching my head. I'd have to refer back to Dale's post earlier where he wondered how people with that mindset get through life without a heart attack. I'm inclined to agree. Why take something like this so seriously? It's a pastime activity; nothing more.

I guess I should add to the discussion at least a little bit. Not to defend people that treat games like an E-sport, but you also have to realize that for some people, this is all they have. I know a few friends back in my old LS that really took the game seriously that were paralyzed or wheelchair bound, cant work/cant play sports etc. Everyone has their own story. Now this is not to say they should be disrespectful to others. Just saying that some people that take stuff like this seriously, for some of them, this could be all they have.

Granted some people enjoy playing efficiently and that's all they want to do, but I think everyone needs to stop and remember (especially if they're the type of person that berates less experienced/skilled players) that they were new once too. I'd wager that every single vet of this game and any other online game, has had quite a few boost ups and helping hands from other players during their journey. That shouldn't be a rarity just because a game gets to the twilight years of its life.

I agree, a lot of people do forget that everyone is new at some point. It's funny because I am a teacher and when I was new to teaching, sometimes I would make the mistake of saying to the kids, "what where you thinking" and then realize that I was no different when I was younger. I wasn't thinking. Putting the fork in the socket sounded fun at the time. Mommy told me not to do it, but I gotta find out for myself if it will shoot me through the back wall or not. Anyway, back on topic. A lot of us have been playing this game for years and it is easy to forget how we were when we first started. I do my best to remember how I started and I do try to help as much as possible, however, I also understand that there are people that take advantage. I mean, I don't ask for much in return. Appreciation is always nice. But, there have been many people I have helped, and then when someone else needs help or I need help, those same people will refuse or they just wont answer. Some people take take take take and never contribute back. So, I am much more careful with who I choose to help for that reason. For a while, I was so busy helping others that I wasn't getting anything done for myself and I burned myself out because of it. Because once people find out who helps out the most, some keep going back for more and asking that person and may not even realize they are taking advantage of that person. It is great when everyone contributes but not everyone does. And those that have had these similar experiences with helping may be more reluctant to help unless they know the person. By the way, it is alright to be new to the game. As mentioned above, everyone is new at some point. But there are also some people that need their hands held through absolutely everything. I mean if I am going to help, at least make some effort to meet me half way rather then just be dead weight all the time.

On that note, I'd argue that some people might just have a harder time adapting and learning to excel with their class. Or it could be an older player with bad arthritis so they're not quite as quick on the draw as others. They may be trying their damnedest but still come up short for an issue they can't control. Of course, if someone fits a description like that, it's best if they don't attempt demanding content with a PUG group, but I'd be lying if I said it wouldn't brighten my day a little to see a random group accept a player like that, despite the loss in efficiency, just to help that person see and do something they probably couldn't have otherwise. That's the kind of community spirit I like to see in a game, and it's unfortunately something I haven't seen much since my days in UO and Asheron's Call.

I kind of already covered a little of this above but again, I agree that everyone has their story and we just don't know what health issues some may suffer along with people that have learning disabilities that may not be as quick on the draw. It is also easy for someone who is capable (by the way this is not directed at you, I understand what you are saying) to say that they just shouldn't attempt demanding content, but a lot of people with these physical disorders may also think that if they don't at least try, then the disorder (what ever it may be) wins. I will use another RL example. My dad recently hurt his shoulder and he has a hard time throwing a ball. And he is a pretty active guy. And even though he knows he shouldn't push himself, he does anyway because he wants to prove he can still contribute just as much as he was able to before. Some people just refuse to give in so they can try to fit in with the rest. In the game setting, it is unfortunate that a lot of people are just very quick to judge. It's much easier to say, "okay this person sucks, lets just kick him/her and try to find someone else." Sad but true.

On a side note that does not add anything to the discussion in the least, my brother used to play Asheron's Call. Haven't heard about that game in a while haha. The memories.

[Afania]

I've been in similar positions during my time in quite a few other mmorpgs over the years and honestly... no, my opinion wasn't any different after those experiences. At the end of the day, it's just a video game. It's here for fun and relaxation. As soon as people start turning it into some kind of e-sport -- where winning is everything, and all else takes a back seat -- that's when I start scratching my head. I'd have to refer back to Dale's post earlier where he wondered how people with that mindset get through life without a heart attack. I'm inclined to agree. Why take something like this so seriously? It's a pastime activity; nothing more.

Granted some people enjoy playing efficiently and that's all they want to do, but I think everyone needs to stop and remember (especially if they're the type of person that berates less experienced/skilled players) that they were new once too. I'd wager that every single vet of this game and any other online game, has had quite a few boost ups and helping hands from other players during their journey. That shouldn't be a rarity just because a game gets to the twilight years of its life.

I don't know about the difficulty/event execution in other MMO you've played, so I can't comment. But I still think you're just forcing your own POV toward gaming on others, and you can't accept the fact that not everyone has same opinion as you.

Anyways, my point stands, ppl tend to play with like minded players. You need to realize there are ppl different from you, with different POV toward gaming, and they have right to pick who they play with.

On that note, I'd argue that some people might just have a harder time adapting and learning to excel with their class. Or it could be an older player with bad arthritis so they're not quite as quick on the draw as others. They may be trying their damnedest but still come up short for an issue they can't control. Of course, if someone fits a description like that, it's best if they don't attempt demanding content with a PUG group, but I'd be lying if I said it wouldn't brighten my day a little to see a random group accept a player like that, despite the loss in efficiency, just to help that person see and do something they probably couldn't have otherwise. That's the kind of community spirit I like to see in a game, and it's unfortunately something I haven't seen much since my days in UO and Asheron's Call.

Well, it doesn't matter if the actual reason is because they're old, slow learner, or wife/kid aggro every 5 sec, it's hard to deny the fact that it's rather frustrating when that happen.

You can't demand others to accept everyone, it's their money, and they pay to enjoy the game. It's obviously a "nice" thing to do if everyone in the same pt has same opinion, but it's not a responsibility.

Personally, if I'm going to accept a random stranger/newer player, I tend to ask other's opinion, see if they're willing to accept it. Because as a pt lead I need to respect others time and their $12 a month, which they pay to have fun, not to wipe. Even if I do I often put them on easier roles that'd affect with the performance less, such as THF, BRD or GEO.

There's a lot more than just "you're not nice if you don't invite new player", a leader needs to communicate with others, make sure they can accept a pt like this. If you just force through it because you want to be "nice", it often won't end well. When you deal with a LS with 20 ppl, it's even harder to sort that out.

Also, at least 80% of the time, helping a new player doesn't end very well when they start to depop/backstabbing/quit/change LS. That's another reason why many players don't sacrifice their own time to help new players anymore.

It's just not something as simple as "I wish the community should be nice, so I'd rather invite newer player and point fingers at everyone else that's not inviting newer players".

I don't think ppl forget they're new once, it's just that there are many outside factor affecting the decision when they choose not to play with others.

[Seillan]

I guess I should add to the discussion at least a little bit. Not to defend people that treat games like an E-sport, but you also have to realize that for some people, this is all they have. I know a few friends back in my old LS that really took the game seriously that were paralyzed or wheelchair bound, cant work/cant play sports etc. Everyone has their own story. Now this is not to say they should be disrespectful to others. Just saying that some people that take stuff like this seriously, for some of them, this could be all they have.




I agree, a lot of people do forget that everyone is new at some point. It's funny because I am a teacher and when I was new to teaching, sometimes I would make the mistake of saying to the kids, "what where you thinking" and then realize that I was no different when I was younger. I wasn't thinking. Putting the fork in the socket sounded fun at the time. Mommy told me not to do it, but I gotta find out for myself if it will shoot me through the back wall or not. Anyway, back on topic. A lot of us have been playing this game for years and it is easy to forget how we were when we first started. I do my best to remember how I started and I do try to help as much as possible, however, I also understand that there are people that take advantage. I mean, I don't ask for much in return. Appreciation is always nice. But, there have been many people I have helped, and then when someone else needs help or I need help, those same people will refuse or they just wont answer. Some people take take take take and never contribute back. So, I am much more careful with who I choose to help for that reason. For a while, I was so busy helping others that I wasn't getting anything done for myself and I burned myself out because of it. Because once people find out who helps out the most, some keep going back for more and asking that person and may not even realize they are taking advantage of that person. It is great when everyone contributes but not everyone does. And those that have had these similar experiences with helping may be more reluctant to help unless they know the person. By the way, it is alright to be new to the game. As mentioned above, everyone is new at some point. But there are also some people that need their hands held through absolutely everything. I mean if I am going to help, at least make some effort to meet me half way rather then just be dead weight all the time.




I kind of already covered a little of this above but again, I agree that everyone has their story and we just don't know what health issues some may suffer along with people that have learning disabilities that may not be as quick on the draw. It is also easy for someone whose capable (by the way this is not directed at you, I understand what you are saying) to say that they just shouldn't attempt demanding content, but a lot of people with these physical disorders may also think that if they don't at least try, then the disorder (what ever it may be) wins. I will use another RL example. My dad recently hurt his shoulder and he has a hard time throwing a ball. And he is a pretty active guy. And even though he knows he shouldn't push himself, he does anyway because he wants to prove he can still contribute just as much as he was able to before. Some people just refuse to give in so they can try to fit in with the rest. In the game setting, it is unfortunate that a lot of people are just very quick to judge. It's much easier to say, "okay this person sucks, lets just kick him/her and try to find someone else." Sad but true.

All great points, and I agree. That's actually one of my favorite things about the mmorpg genre -- it's a great escape for people that are disabled and/or otherwise not able to get out and about very easily in RL. I didn't mean to invalidate that kind of use for a game like this, so I'm sorry if that's how it came across. Truth be told, I suppose I use these games somewhat like that myself. I've got a couple of bum shoulders (so I can definitely relate with your dad) and it can hinder what I'm able to do, especially things involving more physical activity. In-game I'm able to forget about those disabilities and that's something I'd never take for granted. I guess when I say "take the game too seriously," I'm referring more to those that act as if it's a serious event or loss (sometimes even eliciting naming and shaming) if things don't go totally according to plan. All I can think to myself in those situations is, "Man, lighten up." Not that I've noticed that happening particularly often in the games I've played in the past, but it does happen and it's a real buzz kill.

I can also see your point about some people taking a mile when they're given an inch (which Afania also pointed out earlier.) I tend to give everyone the benefit of the doubt at first, but I can understand that after you've been burned quite a few times, it can start to take its toll. Nonetheless, I always try to keep in mind that there's also the chance the person you're helping will not only appreciate the assistance, but might also become a regular, constructive member of the community. It's the whole "good with the bad" kind of thing. It makes me think of a somewhat apt analogy that goes along with an accounting class I'm taking for my major: It talks about businesses that sell on credit and the losses they sometimes incur due to "bad debt." They ask the question, "Why do companies sell on credit when they risk losing a sometimes considerable portion to delinquent accounts?" They do so because it's worth the risk in the end when their bottom line is in the green and rising. I'd like to think that a larger portion of new players would be like the trustworthy credit customers, rather than those with the written off accounts. But yeah, unfortunately it doesn't always work that way.

On a side note that does not add anything to the discussion in the least, my brother used to play Asheron's Call. Haven't heard about that game in a while haha. The memories.

It's an oldie but goodie, indeed. I haven't played it in years but it's still chugging along. The company running it (Turbine) is apparently working on making private servers available for the game, which I guess means the official game is close to sun setting. It's sad but it's nice to see such an awesome gesture (the private server functionality I mean) from developers that truly seem to care about their game and the players in it.

[Seillan]

I don't know about the difficulty/event execution in other MMO you've played, so I can't comment. But I still think you're just forcing your own POV toward gaming on others, and you can't accept the fact that not everyone has same opinion as you.

Anyways, my point stands, ppl tend to play with like minded players. You need to realize there are ppl different from you, with different POV toward gaming, and they have right to pick who they play with.



Well, it doesn't matter if the actual reason is because they're old, slow learner, or wife/kid aggro every 5 sec, it's hard to deny the fact that it's rather frustrating when that happen.

You can't demand others to accept everyone, it's their money, and they pay to enjoy the game. It's obviously a "nice" thing to do if everyone in the same pt has same opinion, but it's not a responsibility.

Personally, if I'm going to accept a random stranger/newer player, I tend to ask other's opinion, see if they're willing to accept it. Because as a pt lead I need to respect others time and their $12 a month, which they pay to have fun, not to wipe. Even if I do I often put them on easier roles that'd affect with the performance less, such as THF, BRD or GEO.

There's a lot more than just "you're not nice if you don't invite new player", a leader needs to communicate with others, make sure they can accept a pt like this. If you just force through it because you want to be "nice", it often won't end well. When you deal with a LS with 20 ppl, it's even harder to sort that out.

It's just not something as simple as "I wish the community should be nice, so I'd rather invite newer player and point fingers at everyone else that's not inviting newer players".

I don't really see where I'm "demanding" anything, but think what you want. I'm also not saying that my POV is the only way, as I've stated numerous times that I understand people have different play styles. All I'm saying is that it doesn't hurt to show a little selflessness and consideration to people sometimes. It's as simple as that. Unfortunately, that seems to be asking far too much of some people and I just find it sad. The growth of the community and a civil, friendly, and helpful environment is just as important to veterans (maybe even more so, considering they are likely the most invested in the game and undoubtedly want it to continue on as long as possible) as it is to the new players having a hard time getting up to speed.

[Afania]

All great points, and I agree. That's actually one of my favorite things about the mmorpg genre -- it's a great escape for people that are disabled and/or otherwise not able to get out and about very easily in RL. I didn't mean to invalidate that kind of use for a game like this, so I'm sorry if that's how it came across. Truth be told, I suppose I use these games somewhat like that myself. I've got a couple of bum shoulders (so I can definitely relate with your dad) and it can hinder what I'm able to do, especially things involving more physical activity. In-game I'm able to forget about those disabilities and that's something I'd never take for granted. I guess when I say "take the game too seriously," I'm referring more to those that act as if it's a serious event or loss (sometimes even eliciting naming and shaming) if things don't go totally according to plan. All I can think to myself in those situations is, "Man, lighten up." Not that I've noticed that happening particularly often in the games I've played in the past, but it does happen and it's a real buzz kill.

I can also see your point about some people taking a mile when they're given an inch (which Afania also pointed out earlier.) I tend to give everyone the benefit of the doubt at first, but I can understand that after you've been burned quite a few times, it can start to take its toll. Nonetheless, I always try to keep in mind that there's also the chance the person you're helping will not only appreciate the assistance, but might also become a regular, constructive member of the community. It's the whole "good with the bad" kind of thing. It makes me think of a somewhat apt analogy that goes along with an accounting class I'm taking for my major: It talks about businesses that sell on credit and the losses they sometimes incur due to "bad debt." They ask the question, "Why do companies sell on credit when they risk losing a sometimes considerable portion to delinquent accounts?" They do so because it's worth the risk in the end when their bottom line is in the green and rising. I'd like to think that a larger portion of new players would be like the trustworthy credit customers, rather than those with the written off accounts. But yeah, unfortunately it doesn't always work that way.



It's an oldie but goodie, indeed. I haven't played it in years but it's still chugging along. The company running it (Turbine) is apparently working on making private servers available for the game, which I guess means the official game is close to sun setting. It's sad but it's nice to see such an awesome gesture from developers that truly seem to care about their game and the players in it.

Seillan, if you want to sacrifice your time to help newer players, just do it, then maybe you'll understand why majority of the players choose not to do it. Because I really can't help you understand the frustration/sacrifice you'd go through to fulfill your ideal unless you've experience it yourself.

You may change your mind about helping others after the frustration/sacrifice you experience them, maybe you won't change your mind, idk. Many friends of mine did vent/rage after the frustration, I admit I probably help other players less in recent years as well.

Either way, instead of pointing fingers like "why aren't you helping newer players", I think you should try it, if you insist on helping others, maybe one day it'd inspire and affect others, so the community become more helpful as a whole.

Until then, pointing fingers doesn't solve this issue, label every player not helping/accepting new players in events as "elitist" also doesn't solve the issue, it only emphasized the wrong issue......not helping others nor inviting newer player has nothing to do with disrespect.

All I'm saying is that it doesn't hurt to show a little selflessness and consideration to people sometimes.

Unfortunately, it does. I've seen multiple friends who collapsed due to several reasons because they tried to help others.

[Seillan]

Seillan, if you want to sacrifice your time to help newer players, just do it, then maybe you'll understand why majority of the players choose not to do it. Because I really can't help you understand the frustration/sacrifice you'd go through to fulfill your ideal unless you've experienced it yourself.

You may change your mind about helping others after the frustration/sacrifice you experience them, maybe you won't change your mind, idk. Many friends of mine did vent/rage after the frustration, I admit I probably help other players less in recent years as well.

Either way, instead of pointing fingers like "why aren't you helping newer players", I think you should try it, if you insist on helping others, maybe one day it'd inspire and affect others, so the community become more helpful as a whole.

Until then, pointing fingers doesn't solve this issue, label every player not helping/accepting new players in events as "elitist" also doesn't solve the issue, it only emphasized the wrong issue......not helping others nor inviting newer player has nothing to do with disrespect.




Unfortunately, it does. I've seen multiple friends who collapsed due to several reasons because they tried to help others.

Like I said in my post above, I've played many games to end game level and my opinion didn't change. I have no problem helping new players in a game that I'm already well-establish (or even if I'm not, but I'm still able to help in some way) and I will continue to do so because I care about the community in whatever game I'm playing. I'd like to think that's not a totally dissenting ideology these days.

[Afania]

I've been in similar positions during my time in quite a few other mmorpgs over the years and honestly... no, my opinion wasn't any different after those experiences.

Oh and btw, one of the major difference between FFXI and other MMO is, FFXI has a very, very small endgame community, there no cross server pt finder function.

Most of the player do endgame regularly knows each other very well, even if they're in different LS. If a pt lead often invite newer player and make less efficient pt, most of the players in endgame community would /blist him or label the leader as "bad lead".

And vice versa, if a pt leader always make efficient runs, every top tier player would join his pt more often.

So it became a vicious circle, a leader who often invite newer player will have harder time to clear the content, because all the experienced player would avoid his pt like a plague, and vice versa. So it's even harder for those players to gear up efficiently nor learn from vet because they're stuck with other newer players.

It's really not as simple as "Hey, I want to help this new player, I'll invite him, so he can gear up and learn from other vets and get better".

If you insist to invite new players, that's fine. But that's one major issue you may face, personally idk a good way to solve it.

[Camiie]

It just seems like a lot of people join what's supposed to be a social game and then act completely anti-social. Maybe that's how they are in real life. Maybe in real life they've always been "the loser" and finally have a chance to reverse their role. I just have to wonder why, if dealing with people is such a pain, why even bother with a game that requires dealing with others? There are many games to play and many other activities to participate in that one can do without ever having to put up with "gimps" and "noobs." Why not do those instead?

[Comeatmebro]

i've brought undergeared people to more free delves than everyone in this thread added together

the problem is it doesn't fix anything, you start bringing someone who can't pull their weight and many of them just expect you to keep doing so.. it's not enough to get someone every delve win, then they want to be carried through high-tier BCs and such.. people who don't care to put effort in aren't going to suddenly start just because they have the gear to get into groups

helping a few people get 119 gear is nice and all, but unless you're prepared to permanently add them to your static/linkshell/pre-shout recruitment list/harem, they're just going to be back where they were looking a little shinier

no one person or group can solve this problem, for everyone to be able to advance there needs to be someone willing to lead for every 5-8 people willing to do an event.. and there isn't, period