Do you think one day there will be a MMORPG where helping others....

[Seillan]

The social atmosphere of anything is only as good as the people you're with. So most of these issues people are having in regards to elitism isn't really an issue with Final Fantasy XI. It's more of a problem with the company you keep. And you can't really fault the game for this. SE can't force the people who play their games to treat others with respect.

What I will say though is I have noticed the easier a game becomes the ruder the people become. When you actually have to rely on others to succeed in a game people tend to respect one another more because everyone they meet is a potential ally they are in need of. And people are less likely to be jerks to someone they need. I know this sounds cynical. But I believe it to be the truth nonetheless. But there will always be jerks.

So I caution players who are asking for things to be made easier and more accessible on this game because they are experiencing a lot of bad attitudes and other players are unwilling to help them. Because I believe doing this would only make this problem worse. And eventually this game will slide into the same pitfall most other MMORPGs have (and this one as well to an extent) where the game just turns into basically a solo game with an option to group up at the end so players don't have to interact with one another at all or at least as little as possible.

In short: making the game easier so players do not have to depend on one another will not make this game or the community better.

This game already has a level sync option in place. High levels can obtain merit points when helping out lower level characters get experience. I have also noticed that when doing battlefields everyone gets automatic rewards now just for participating. So I think SE has gone out of their way to encourage people to help one another. Their mistake was in lowering the challenge so players have to depend on one another less, and as a result this decreases the value and need of having allies. As a result there is less incentive to groom new players into the ranks.

My best advice is to build a circle of friends on the game who are interested in accomplishing the same things as you are. Don't depend on shouts for your events and take the time to talk to others. I'm sure there are people out there who would be willing to join you regularly for delves. Because in the end that's the only way you are going to enjoy this game. If you depend on shouts or bribing people with gil to get things done you are going to be miserable.

Well, my point on "elitism" wasn't meant to single out XI; it's just a personal observation of the genre as a whole through my near 14 years of playing within it. Throughout my experience with games like Everquest back in the day, I don't think I ever came across someone crunching numbers or making note of optimal dps (or if they were, they at least didn't rub it in your face if you didn't perform to their standards.) Hell, even during my year or so of playing WoW during the pre-BC days, I was never ridiculed for my choices on gear or my talent spec (and I was definitely never kicked from a group for making a mistake or not knowing the perfect rotation.) I attribute that to the fact that the genre was still relatively new to most people so everyone was in that "I'm a total noob" phase, thus there wasn't as much of an experience gap. Things were still new and exciting and playing the game was still about fun. Now when I look at the end game atmosphere of just about any given mmorpg that I've been high enough to participate in (even newer ones) -- now that everything has been done to death, most of the secrets have been revealed, strategies for just about everything have been posted on a respective wiki page, etc -- I see a bunch of jaded veterans that only seem to find contentment with, as I mentioned above, incremental stat increases, increasing efficiency to a point of obsessive compulsion, and (for some apparently) berating others for not "doing it right."

Obviously I can't really speak for XI directly as I'm nowhere near endgame but I've seen it enough through other games. It's gotten to the point that I really don't do PUGs anymore or god forbid, pick up raids and the like. The environment just seems too stressful/hostile now for my taste and so much is expected even of new players -- at least from my own observations (YMMV.) I just wish people that followed that thought process could look back and remember that everyone starts new at some point and that these games should be about enjoyment and socialization -- not solely about raising your character's proficiency by another .001%.

You're totally right though; these games are always a million times better when played with friends and others that share a similar ideology in regards to fun. It's just a shame that the climate has changed to a point where people are actually hesitant to join PUGs anymore out of worry of being shat all over if they don't perform to some perfectionist standard -- and that's assuming they're even playing a "not worthless" class to begin with. I haven't looked into joining a linkshell yet, but you can rest assured I'll be going for one of the most "casual" I can find. I play these games for fun, not for competition (although, in fairness, I can understand that's a preferred play style for many.)

(*Ahem* Sorry for the rant.)

Well if you just want to derp around sometime look me up on Asura. Promise I'll laugh if we derp it up. Cause really, why call it "playing" if it's not fun?

Really my best times on the game were getting tipsy with friends, doing stuff for fun, sometimes messing it up.

I seriously may have to take you up on that . My friend and I will hopefully have more time to play in the coming weeks, so maybe we'll catch you around. I'm all about derping it up, heh.

[kylani]

I've been thinking about this way too much.

Old school FFXI was pretty demanding. There was a mix of nice, helpful, and your more hard core players even back then. I feel like, over time, the people who enjoyed the game but were more casual left due to the demands of the game. The people I played with all wanted to earn good gear, but we mainly enjoyed the challenges and had fun doing content, whether we won or failed miserably. We used the jobs that we wanted to play, not the cookie cutter jobs that even back then others demanded, and we all had fun. I can remember folks telling us we couldn't win certain missions with our group setup, but we had leaders who liked strategy and figured out ways to win. It was awesome winning our own way.

But the game took a LOT of time, and people have lives, and the game could be incredibly frustrating at times. Folks rage quit, moved, had kids, got married, etc. I think the folks that have stayed tended to be the more hard core generally.

Now that the game is much more accessible/casual friendly, I there is a mix of new problems.
A) I think maybe there just aren't enough new people or not enough leader types. It is so easy to get decent higher level gear now than it was. New folks should be geared up in no time and ready to start harder content, but they need enough folks to team up and need to look up the strategies.

B) People can auto level to 99 so fast, and get decent gear so easily, they've never had to really work before, don't know how to team up, don't have patience when they lose.

C) Many veterans who would help have been burned so many times they've stopped trying. I've seen people with amazing gear that have no idea how to play their job. Failing isn't a big deal, but its frustrating when people aren't interested in learning and just want a win handed to them and they make things much harder than they should be. Leroy Jenkins didn't just happen in Wow.

When I rejoined a few years ago, my son and I enjoyed duoing in Abyssea to work on our gear. We'd invite folks that needed seals or mobs we were working on, and it was amazing what adding a few people who have no idea how to play can do to a plan. We're fairly easy going and found humor in most of it, but eventually we began not inviting folks because they just wouldn't listen to the strat no matter how much we went over it beforehand. Their actions were often so random and wasted pop items that took a bit of work to farm.

By the same token, another duo invited us to team up on a boss neither of us could win, and they turned out to be amazing friends and strategists, and we ended up joining their ls and doing tons of new content we wouldn't have if we hadn't run into them. It seems pretty hit or miss meeting folks though.

The problem seems to be more of a varying player base issue than a game issue to me. There is so much that CAN be done, but what people want to do to achieve goals varies widely, and meeting folks with the same mindset even harder. If you can just find like-minded people, you should be able to play and enjoy any job nowadays. I don't know why people are in such a hurry that they want the most efficient party set up for everything. Playing the job you love and figuring out how to win can be so much more satisfying.

[Olor]

I seriously may have to take you up on that . My friend and I will hopefully have more time to play in the coming weeks, so maybe we'll catch you around. I'm all about derping it up, heh.

Awesome, hope you do. Three people can do an awful lot in this game, especially if they are willing to play around a bit and learn. Look forward to it. Shoot me a tell if you need help as well.

[Dale]

I've been thinking about this way too much.

Old school FFXI was pretty demanding. There was a mix of nice, helpful, and your more hard core players even back then. I feel like, over time, the people who enjoyed the game but were more casual left due to the demands of the game. The people I played with all wanted to earn good gear, but we mainly enjoyed the challenges and had fun doing content, whether we won or failed miserably. We used the jobs that we wanted to play, not the cookie cutter jobs that even back then others demanded, and we all had fun. I can remember folks telling us we couldn't win certain missions with our group setup, but we had leaders who liked strategy and figured out ways to win. It was awesome winning our own way.

But the game took a LOT of time, and people have lives, and the game could be incredibly frustrating at times. Folks rage quit, moved, had kids, got married, etc. I think the folks that have stayed tended to be the more hard core generally.

Now that the game is much more accessible/casual friendly, I there is a mix of new problems.
A) I think maybe there just aren't enough new people or not enough leader types. It is so easy to get decent higher level gear now than it was. New folks should be geared up in no time and ready to start harder content, but they need enough folks to team up and need to look up the strategies.

B) People can auto level to 99 so fast, and get decent gear so easily, they've never had to really work before, don't know how to team up, don't have patience when they lose.

C) Many veterans who would help have been burned so many times they've stopped trying. I've seen people with amazing gear that have no idea how to play their job. Failing isn't a big deal, but its frustrating when people aren't interested in learning and just want a win handed to them and they make things much harder than they should be. Leroy Jenkins didn't just happen in Wow.

When I rejoined a few years ago, my son and I enjoyed duoing in Abyssea to work on our gear. We'd invite folks that needed seals or mobs we were working on, and it was amazing what adding a few people who have no idea how to play can do to a plan. We're fairly easy going and found humor in most of it, but eventually we began not inviting folks because they just wouldn't listen to the strat no matter how much we went over it beforehand. Their actions were often so random and wasted pop items that took a bit of work to farm.

By the same token, another duo invited us to team up on a boss neither of us could win, and they turned out to be amazing friends and strategists, and we ended up joining their ls and doing tons of new content we wouldn't have if we hadn't run into them. It seems pretty hit or miss meeting folks though.

The problem seems to be more of a varying player base issue than a game issue to me. There is so much that CAN be done, but what people want to do to achieve goals varies widely, and meeting folks with the same mindset even harder. If you can just find like-minded people, you should be able to play and enjoy any job nowadays. I don't know why people are in such a hurry that they want the most efficient party set up for everything. Playing the job you love and figuring out how to win can be so much more satisfying.

I have learned some things over the years by playing these types of games. And one of those is it's usually the same people who are the loudest complaining MMORPGs take too much time to play who end being the same exact people who are complaining the loudest about being bored with nothing left to do. Which leads me to my original point: which is that I believe the real problem here is MMORPGs for some reason attract a large amount of players who just don't like MMORPGs to begin with. They consider them a grind (that is the word they often use) find them boring and just want to get the experience over with as fast as possible. They don't want to have to play with others. They don't want to have to level up. They don't want to form groups. They don't want to have to replace their gear. They don't want to have to walk anywhere. They basically don't want to do anything associated with the genre really, but instead rush to the end and get the best stuff then complain about being bored.

I see this trend over and over and over again. And game companies trying to appeal to these types of players has literally butchered the genre into an unrecognizable mess, so much so that the developers really have no clue what their players want anymore. And to be fair to them, a lot of the players themselves really don't know either. So in a way I agree with you. The varying player base is the real issue.

But their complaint about time I feel is a misnomer. Because I've seen those same exact same people saying they have a life so that makes grinding impossible and that the MMORPG should be changed to suit their lifestyle spend all day on their couch playing other types of games. So it's not really a question about time. Because I can promise you most of those same people have no problem what-so-ever spending hours and hours playing other types of games they actually enjoy. It's just the simple fact they don't enjoy traditional MMORPG gameplay and have successfully enacted changes to this genre (destructive changes in my opinion) to turn the MMORPG into something it originally was not. And shouldn't be. At least that's how I feel about it.

[Dale]

Well, my point on "elitism" wasn't meant to single out XI; it's just a personal observation of the genre as a whole through my near 14 years of playing within it. Throughout my experience with games like Everquest back in the day, I don't think I ever came across someone crunching numbers or making note of optimal dps (or if they were, they at least didn't rub it in your face if you didn't perform to their standards.) Hell, even during my year or so of playing WoW during the pre-BC days, I was never ridiculed for my choices on gear or my talent spec (and I was definitely never kicked from a group for making a mistake or not knowing the perfect rotation.) I attribute that to the fact that the genre was still relatively new to most people so everyone was in that "I'm a total noob" phase, thus there wasn't as much of an experience gap. Things were still new and exciting and playing the game was still about fun. Now when I look at the end game atmosphere of just about any given mmorpg that I've been high enough to participate in (even newer ones) -- now that everything has been done to death, most of the secrets have been revealed, strategies for just about everything have been posted on a respective wiki page, etc -- I see a bunch of jaded veterans that only seem to find contentment with, as I mentioned above, incremental stat increases, increasing efficiency to a point of obsessive compulsion, and (for some apparently) berating others for not "doing it right."

Obviously I can't really speak for XI directly as I'm nowhere near endgame but I've seen it enough through other games. It's gotten to the point that I really don't do PUGs anymore or god forbid, pick up raids and the like. The environment just seems too stressful/hostile now for my taste and so much is expected even of new players -- at least from my own observations (YMMV.) I just wish people that followed that thought process could look back and remember that everyone starts new at some point and that these games should be about enjoyment and socialization -- not solely about raising your character's proficiency by another .001%.

You're totally right though; these games are always a million times better when played with friends and others that share a similar ideology in regards to fun. It's just a shame that the climate has changed to a point where people are actually hesitant to join PUGs anymore out of worry of being shat all over if they don't perform to some perfectionist standard -- and that's assuming they're even playing a "not worthless" class to begin with. I haven't looked into joining a linkshell yet, but you can rest assured I'll be going for one of the most "casual" I can find. I play these games for fun, not for competition (although, in fairness, I can understand that's a preferred play style for many.)

(*Ahem* Sorry for the rant.)
.

It didn't read like a rant to me

The elitism factor is something I've never been able to understand. Why it matters so much to certain players rather they kill a monster in 5 minutes or 6 minutes is a mystery to me. It seems to them everything must be done as quickly and efficiently as possible else you are worthless and need to go level something else. It's such an exhausting and demanding mentality I honestly don't know how these people go through life without suffering a heart attack.

Me personally, I am a laid back kind of guy. If it gets the job done, then it's just fine with me. My goal in all MMORPGs is to create a character who is the most fun for me to play. I really could care less about his DPS or HPS or any other per second calculation. So long as I am successful and having fun while doing it I consider it mission accomplished.

[kylani]

But their complaint about time I feel is a misnomer. Because I've seen those same exact same people saying they have a life so that makes grinding impossible and that the MMORPG should be changed to suit their lifestyle spend all day on their couch playing other types of games. So it's not really a question about time. Because I can promise you most of those same people have no problem what-so-ever spending hours and hours playing other types of games they actually enjoy. It's just the simple fact they don't enjoy traditional MMORPG gameplay and have successfully enacted changes to this genre (destructive changes in my opinion) to turn the MMORPG into something it originally was not. And shouldn't be. At least that's how I feel about it.

I agree with your comments, but I do think time was a factor in old style play. We had a great link shell with very good leaders, but it was so difficult getting together to get things done for folks and very time consuming. Missions, hunting NMs for jelly rings, joyeuse, kotes, etc., limit breaks, AF hunts, quested WS. They were fun, but they took up large blocks of time. It wasn't like we were running at break neck pace in the game. Every one seemed to need help, and much of it required large chunks of time.

And that's not including time to farm for your own gear, spells, etc just so you could party or be able to help. If you pugged back then, it was pretty much expected that you play for three hours. If you were tank or RDM, it was painful leaving a party. Our static group was better, but members got frustrated at what they considered was the slow pace because everyone had to try to stay at the same level on our static jobs. I enjoyed whatever I was doing, but I can tell you everyone differed, and time seemed to be the biggest issue.

I don't think it's a constraint now, but I remember scheduling being a huge frustration for the leaders. Maybe because we were a family oriented casual kin. For some, three hours is nothing (on a weekend back then, I could go 10) for others an hour is long. I'm sticking by time (from a scheduling perspective) being a big factor back then.

[Dale]

I agree with your comments, but I do think time was a factor in old style play. We had a great link shell with very good leaders, but it was so difficult getting together to get things done for folks and very time consuming. Missions, hunting NMs for jelly rings, joyeuse, kotes, etc., limit breaks, AF hunts, quested WS. They were fun, but they took up large blocks of time. It wasn't like we were running at break neck pace in the game. Every one seemed to need help, and much of it required large chunks of time.

And that's not including time to farm for your own gear, spells, etc just so you could party or be able to help. If you pugged back then, it was pretty much expected that you play for three hours. If you were tank or RDM, it was painful leaving a party. Our static group was better, but members got frustrated at what they considered was the slow pace because everyone had to try to stay at the same level on our static jobs. I enjoyed whatever I was doing, but I can tell you everyone differed, and time seemed to be the biggest issue.

I don't think it's a constraint now, but I remember scheduling being a huge frustration for the leaders. Maybe because we were a family oriented casual kin. For some, three hours is nothing (on a weekend back then, I could go 10) for others an hour is long. I'm sticking by time (from a scheduling perspective) being a big factor back then.

I'll concede that planning large events was difficult. Trying to get 18 people to show up for something at the same time was a chore. That's one reason why I prefer player-organized content to be kept to more reasonable numbers. But I don't think that's really an issue with the game taking too long to play. It's more of a problem with just trying to juggle the schedules of 18 different people, many of which don't even live in the same time zones. And that would be difficult to do on any game under any circumstance, no matter how it's paced. That's also why I prefer large content like that to be kept open to the public like besieged was for example.

Most of the examples you list where time was a factor was camping Notorious Monsters. And that's one of the main reasons why I believe Final Fantasy 11 in its original design failed. So you won't get any argument from me about how flawed of a system that was. Even if it only took 30 minutes, it would feel like 30 years just due to the boring nature its design. But to your point yes, it could take forever - literally all day for a NM to pop only to watch a gold seller snatch it from you so they could inflate the market even more, putting decent gear and items even further out of reach for new players. It's actually why I quit the game because I'm not going to pay money so I can sit around and be bored all day. So I agree with you about that too.

Where I do disagree with you though is the party system because and feel it was done well. It's true if you didn't have dependable friends it could be hard to consistently find groups. But I think that's necessary and I like how the original design encouraged and rewarded people for taking the time to build friendships and play together. The level sync function (which was added much later I understand) does fix the problem with static groups and players having to wait on others to level.

[kylani]

Where I do disagree with you though is the party system because and feel it was done well. It's true if you didn't have dependable friends it could be hard to consistently find groups. But I think that's necessary and I like how the original design encouraged and rewarded people for taking the time to build friendships and play together. The level sync function (which was added much later I understand) does fix the problem with static groups a players having to wait on others to level.

I mis-communicated if I indicated the party system wasn't well done. I loved partying, even before level sync, and then level sync was awesome. I met the friends in my ls from partying, and totally enjoyed it. However, I was RDM, and back then, I just had to log in to get a group. It wasn't necessarily that way for others, hence, the mana burns and monk burns, etc, but I LOVED the original format. I don't care how efficient DD burns are, I liked a group with different jobs working together, and even if it's inefficient, I loved the fun of pulling off skill chains and magic bursts. I know others who did too, but I suspect most would say, holding your TP is such a waste. I'm sure it is now, but I still fondly remember the joy of getting a freeze MB, and trying to save the BLM the times it didn't work out.

[Olor]

But their complaint about time I feel is a misnomer. Because I've seen those same exact same people saying they have a life so that makes grinding impossible and that the MMORPG should be changed to suit their lifestyle spend all day on their couch playing other types of games. So it's not really a question about time. Because I can promise you most of those same people have no problem what-so-ever spending hours and hours playing other types of games they actually enjoy. It's just the simple fact they don't enjoy traditional MMORPG gameplay and have successfully enacted changes to this genre (destructive changes in my opinion) to turn the MMORPG into something it originally was not. And shouldn't be. At least that's how I feel about it.

I dunno. I think people just grew older. It happens. Especially with an old game like this, which hasn't had a facelift in it's 12 years. I mean it looks awesome for a 12 year old game... but it is still a 12 year old game. I don't mind grinding at all. I mean, I have more than 500 hours on my pokemon X game, most of it spent breeding mons... that's not something that someone who hates grinding does.

That said, if pokemon made me walk across the map every time I wanted to check the IVs of my new mons, I would not find that fun. There is grinding, and there is simply wasting people's time. Riding the bike back and forth to hatch pokebabies is something I can handle, but if they took 'fly' out of the game I don't see that improving my experience. You know what I mean? You have to do the walk once, to unlock the area, and there are areas you still have to walk to if you want to go there, but most of my travel is done via fly. Heck they even added cabs to the main hub city so you don't need to walk to the different stores.

I don't think that removing the tedium of travel, for example, means that you hate MMOs. I just think it recognizes that the charm of spending a half an hour navigating a massive map really wears off after awhile... as does waiting 20 minutes for a ferry, which takes like 10 minutes to arrive at it's destination. That's just dead time. You're not even moving. Nor does it even put you on the damn boat if you happen to AFK.

Ain't nobody got time for that.

[Dale]

I mis-communicated if I indicated the party system wasn't well done. I loved partying, even before level sync, and then level sync was awesome. I met the friends in my ls from partying, and totally enjoyed it. However, I was RDM, and back then, I just had to log in to get a group. It wasn't necessarily that way for others, hence, the mana burns and monk burns, etc, but I LOVED the original format. I don't care how efficient DD burns are, I liked a group with different jobs working together, and even if it's inefficient, I loved the fun of pulling off skill chains and magic bursts. I know others who did too, but I suspect most would say, holding your TP is such a waste. I'm sure it is now, but I still fondly remember the joy of getting a freeze MB, and trying to save the BLM the times it didn't work out.

Ah ok, I thought you had issues with the old party format. Seems we pretty much agree about everything then