Do you think one day there will be a MMORPG where helping others....

[Olor]

If this issue can happen between friends who've been clearing/selling delve1 for 1+ year, surely it'll happen a lot often between new/returning player wearing ilv117 gears with 0 clear experience. Learning how to stun needs time, learning how to DD properly needs time, learning how to deal with moves needs time, learning how to communicate in /p chat needs time and experience, and /shouting and rep members also needs time. Slowly, hours passed and the ilv117 players may still not have win. By the time you finally get win, you're lotting gears against 5 other members.

I agree 100% with Afania here, which doesn't happen often. People just assuming that first of all you're going to be able to get another 5-6 people through shouting who are at least semi-decent... then that those people are going to be willing to fail a few times... that no one is gonna rage quit then shout in Jeuno about what an idiot the leader is for not getting a win the first time... or post on your FFXIAH page about what a moron you are because you made a mistake when you've never done the run before... or w/e

Sorry, but that's just fairy tale talk. It doesn't work that way in this game. I personally don't mind leading a run if I have the strategy down and I am confident and know what I need to win. But to expect a party full of people who have never done content, especially when the strats aren't even really easy to find anymore (they are buried in bg threads or w/e a lot of the time unlike say, abyssea days where it was all in the wiki)... people who don't know which direction to go or how to properly beat the monsters... yeah....

Not realistic.

I know people did it with lesser gears before, but they were also willing to fail. Personally, I am willing to fail, but not if it comes with people calling me a moron or getting all ragey. Frankly, I think it would be fun to try and I have tried with people who weren't all ragey and it was fun.

But most people don't want to do that. And I don't want to be around people who are mean and can't relax. It's why I don't do delve runs even though my bard is more than adequate for the task (not supremely awesome but I've contributed to a win, so I know I can't be unbearably bad)

I just don't like the angry ragey stressy feels it brings out in people.

[Mitruya]

Not to mention groups are punished for taking too many people. So there's no chance for players to catch up now that everyone lowmans/multiboxes. And god forbid a newbie/returnee has leveled and geared the wrong jobs.
As far as I can tell, Delve shouts have disappeared on my server (at least during the times I pay attention to it). It's also old news now, along with the BCNMs that nobody seems to bother with.
To stay on topic, future MMOs should not do such things to discourage letting in lesser geared/less experienced players. Also the tag system in ToAU is another example of discouraging help.

[Camiie]

So where are new players going to get these millions upon millions of gil for their clears? Gil selling websites? I guess FFXI is now (unofficially) pay-to-win. Might as well go ahead and open up that cash shop, SE. The players have spoken. This is the kind of game they want.

[Olor]

So where are new players going to get these millions upon millions of gil for their clears? Gil selling websites? I guess FFXI is now (unofficially) pay-to-win. Might as well go ahead and open up that cash shop, SE. The players have spoken. This is the kind of game they want.

It's certainly not what I want. Nope.

I just don't know how to fix it even at this point. It's gotten so that I don't want to do almost anything that's current because the expectations are so high and people are so tense about it. It isn't very much fun. A big part of it is just ... most of my friends have left the game.

[Seillan]

It's certainly not what I want. Nope.

I just don't know how to fix it even at this point. It's gotten so that I don't want to do almost anything that's current because the expectations are so high and people are so tense about it. It isn't very much fun. A big part of it is just ... most of my friends have left the game.

It's sad but it seems as though elitism has truly permeated the genre, through and through. I'm hard pressed to find an online game anymore where the focus at end game is actually on fun. It's all about getting every tiny little incremental upgrade that you can now -- and that's it. And if you're not optimally efficient, every single second of you play time, then you're "bad" and you should feel bad, apparently. It's for that reason that I typically avoid end game in mmos; jaded players ruin it by taking it too damn seriously for the sake of pixels.

All that said, I still plan to have as good of a time as possible in FFXI; once I finally get some time to play it, heh. Can't wait for some vacation time.

[Maikeru_Sylph]

I know that the OP intended for this thread to cover more than just FFXI, but IMO this is an issue that FFXI is facing at this very moment, and it's only more noticeable on servers with small populations. As a new player, it's difficult to even find people, let alone make friends. Most people have already completed the content and are just AFK selling stuff so they get a relic/mythic weapon. It seems like no one has time for new players.

[Olor]

It's sad but it seems as though elitism has truly permeated the genre, through and through. I'm hard pressed to find an online game anymore where the focus at end game is actually on fun. It's all about getting every tiny little incremental upgrade that you can now -- and that's it. And if you're not optimally efficient, every single second of you play time, then you're "bad" and you should feel bad, apparently. It's for that reason that I typically avoid end game in mmos; jaded players ruin it by taking it too damn seriously for the sake of pixels.

All that said, I still plan to have as good of a time as possible in FFXI; once I finally get some time to play it, heh. Can't wait for some vacation time.

Well if you just want to derp around sometime look me up on Asura. Promise I'll laugh if we derp it up. Cause really, why call it "playing" if it's not fun?

Really my best times on the game were getting tipsy with friends, doing stuff for fun, sometimes messing it up.

[Mitruya]

Oh my gosh guys, yes, exactly. People are so uptight about efficiency they can't bother to play with you. All I do is play Monstrosity now and SE can't even bother to update it.
"Oh, you're lolPUP? Can you come another job?"
"Oh, you don't have so-and-so gear already? This content is beyond your level."
"This content is piss easy, suck less." (i.e. cheats)
And of course there's the usual response - "Go solo it with a pet job or Trusts."

[Dale]

The social atmosphere of anything is only as good as the people you're with. So most of these issues people are having in regards to elitism isn't really an issue with Final Fantasy XI. It's more of a problem with the company you keep. And you can't really fault the game for this. SE can't force the people who play their games to treat others with respect.

What I will say though is I have noticed the easier a game becomes the ruder the people become. When you actually have to rely on others to succeed in a game people tend to respect one another more because everyone they meet is a potential ally they are in need of. And people are less likely to be jerks to someone they need. I know this sounds cynical. But I believe it to be the truth nonetheless. But there will always be jerks.

So I caution players who are asking for things to be made easier and more accessible on this game because they are experiencing a lot of bad attitudes and other players are unwilling to help them. Because I believe doing this would only make this problem worse. And eventually this game will slide into the same pitfall most other MMORPGs have (and this one as well to an extent) where the game just turns into basically a solo game with an option to group up at the end so players don't have to interact with one another at all or at least as little as possible.

In short: making the game easier so players do not have to depend on one another will not make this game or the community better.

This game already has a level sync option in place. High levels can obtain merit points when helping out lower level characters get experience. I have also noticed that when doing battlefields everyone gets automatic rewards now just for participating. So I think SE has gone out of their way to encourage people to help one another. Their mistake was in lowering the challenge so players have to depend on one another less, and as a result this decreases the value and need of having allies. As a result there is less incentive to groom new players into the ranks.

My best advice is to build a circle of friends on the game who are interested in accomplishing the same things as you are. Don't depend on shouts for your events and take the time to talk to others. I'm sure there are people out there who would be willing to join you regularly for delves. Because in the end that's the only way you are going to enjoy this game. If you depend on shouts or bribing people with gil to get things done you are going to be miserable.

[Mitruya]

^Agreed. The more lowman-friendly things have become, the more you have people turning their nose up at teaming with you for anything. And as Olor has said, people will flat out yell at you for mistakes or losses.
I have not really been one of those who has asked for easy-mode. I just want to see job-balance/content-balance so everyone feels like they can participate. I thought the solo-Nyzul and 6 man-Delve changes were pretty dumb since it encourages more exclusion and multi-boxing.
Populations are dwindling, linkshells are dwindling (and really, when does it benefit you to go 18-man anymore?), and the people I knew who just played for fun seem to have disappeared.
There's no way new or returning players can catch up to endgame standards. I DO think you can partially fault the game designers who probably use psychology to encourage the addiction of playing (therefore encouraging greed and selfishness). Also, while I agree that everyone gets rewards from battlefields, I have seen complaints elsewhere of people doing new BCNMs 20+times and not getting anything. I assume this is like VW all over again, always getting crap and never what you're after. Not to mention it's the same old BS of RNG or SAM or GTFO.