Effort to reward ratio for job point categories

[Sasaraixx]

Afania, I am finished responding to your posts. It seems like I'm "arguing for the sake of arguing" to you because you are unable to comprehend even the most basic of concepts.

The entire point of the solo CP argument is that it ONLY APPLIES TO 3 JOBS. That is in no way similar to the optimal merit parties that were a lot more inclusive. There were at least 3 times as many jobs that could gain LP at a decent rate during that time period.

You also still can't seem to understand that 30k/hr merit parties are still much better than 60k/hr solo capacity points because the latter requires THREE TIMES THE POINTS and more upgrades. And that is on top of the point I just made above about merit parties being vastly more inclusive than JP soloing. Your 60k/he "data" applies to literally less than 15% of jobs.

I cannot take you seriously anymore. "Only a few jobs can solo CP well." That's the entire point!! "People have nothing else to do so they grind job points." Job points are a ridiculous grind!! And you don't see how you are proving our point?

And on top of all that, you accuse other posters of wanting changes that only reflect their play style. Yet you are the one who seems fine with making people spend most of their game time grinding these points in order to cap them and forcing them to play literally only a few jobs in order to solo them. Who is inflicting whose play style on others?

Don't bother responding. I won't read it. I've reached the point where I don't think I can be civil in any further exchanges. Trying to have a rational debate with you is almost impossible.

Continue on your marry way spending most of your time grinding job points and switching to BLU or BLM so that you can solo them. The rest of us will continue asking for changes that place this content in line with the originally announced intention and don't require such an outrageous time sink.

[Afania]

I comprehend everything you said, it's just not the point I was trying to make since I already agree that it shouldn't be limit to AoE jobs, duh. If anything I was arguing that every job needs to reach 25~28hr per 1 category. Not sure why you think I'm disagreeing with that.

[Zhronne]

You're comparing an optimal ToAU pt setup with subpar setup for CP solo.

Hmm no, I'm comparing an average/good ToAU pt to what is either the average/optimal solo setup for many jobs.
A MNK posted a while ago in these pages saying he gets 18k on MNK, which is certainly not a BRD (speaking of which, I get way more than that on my BRD but then again I'm a Mythic BRD so I don't really count like "average" either ) .
I get 17k on my RUN.
The world outside is full of people who get numbers like these if not even lower.
Yes, some jobs (3? 4?) have it better. What about everybody else?
What about all those players without mules or RME gear?
Sorry to return your argument backwards and I don't want to sound like an ass, but if someone is biased here it seems you are, too much used to your decent rates on your jobs that you fail to see the whole world outside, and it's a much slower world trust me.


Now, getting back in-topic, we could argue comparing a PT setup (ToAU) with Solo setup (solo CP farming).
It's a valid point, but then again game changed. You hardly farmed XP solo unless you were a BST or something else. Back then FFXI was a highly group-focused game.
Now it's getting solo-content more and more, so it's hard to compare.
The fact that almost nobody wants to make CP Pts in gates zones doesn't help either (people lost the habit =/)
And then after 2+ hours of shouting you finally get a tell, you ask if they have ~900 acc unbuffed and they reply that at best they can get to 750 lol, and you're back to square zero.

CP pts in Woh Gates are not super exclusive in terms of the jobs they require, but they're not particularly flexible either, not at all.

Most ppl grind merit point at 75 era only use piercing DD x3 COR BRD RDM, with a very strict gear check......no tiger pants no merit pt for you.

I guess every server is a different world then, because I don't really remember those strict gear checks.
Majority of people weren't even using stuff like Windower Script macros, let alone stuff like Spellcast or Gearswap back then.
RMEs weren't a "requirement" (because hardly anybody had one) and people were usually getting invites based on reputation or... lack of alternatives I guess.
I mean, I remember getting XP invites on birds on PUP. Yes, PUP, omg I'm not even kidding lol (after the "Daze" ws patch!)
But either way, I think we're sliding very off topic now.

you'd have no choice but deal with it.

Why does the only alternative be this?
Why can't it be "we expose the issue and SE does something about this system to make it more even for all jobs"
Why can't it be this way? Why is the only available option "dealing with it"?

data here, data there, blahblah

Sorry for the cut, but it's a recurrent topic of your post.
Afania... this is a forum post among players of a videogame.
It's not an university essay about statistics.
What, did you expect people to post semi-parametric Statistical inference?
I don't see why you're behaving like I tried to act allmighty and give this impression.
I have estimations, averages, general stuff with some numbers provided.
The 20k/hr number wasn't based on the fact that some people can easily do 60k/hr solo, that I can do 90k/hr with a good pt or that Byrth can do 100k/hr solo with his BLM.
It was mostly based on my experience on a plethora of other jobs (yes, they exist) and other players which get actually lower than that.
Yes, 20k was maybe a bit lower, I probably should have used something like 25k/hr, but then again I don't see how you could call such a small difference "highly biased".
It's just a small difference which is perfectly legit from my point of view within the range of exreme approximation I was trying to achieve.

I didn't deny the fact that JP category is less potent than merit point. But even you agreed that reward/effort ratio is purely subjective.

No I said something different.
I said there is an important subjective aspect in that, I didn't say it's "purely subjective".
You have to see it on a large scale.
If 10 people say it's fine and 990 say it's not, who do you think it's going to get more attention/relevance?

However, if you want to use your subjective opinion

Afania, again, how can you call it subjective?
I invited it two times already and make it three to judge the system not only in its current form (unbalanced but bearable) but in its future forms.
Stop imagining 6 categories requiring 55 points each to cap.
Start imagining 24 categories each requiring 465 points to cap.
How can you call *this* scenario reven remotely "subjective"? Unless you're a masochist of course, I wouldn't argue against that then.

I'm not advocating anything, just like I'm certainly not asking them to make JPs as irrelevantly pointless as XP/MP are today (please: no!).
But at the same time it's pretty clear this system, atm, is not balanced in several, multiple aspects that have been sufficiently enough exposed during this thread.
The fact that some people can infact "escape" this thing thanks to playing on one of the few lucky jobs or thanks to the fact they can afk and leech CP surely doesn't make the system less "unbalanced"?

Please, do not treat me like I'm an envyous kid who has zero JPs and wants to cap before tomorrow because I'm totally not that kind of guy (as a matter of fact, despite me playing only a few days a week I already have more than 170 farmed JPs).
I'm not talking out of personal interest or personal bias.
I'm talking from as much as an objective point of view as I can do.
I'm not on either side of the extremes, not on the side of who wants JPs=MPs, not on the side of who wants JPs to stay like they are now.
I consider both stances to be exagerations.
The system needs some work, but they don't have to completely destroy it or turn it into something it was never meant to be.
It was meant to be something for long term goals, leave it that way! They just need to tune the effort:reward ratio a bit better and increase the number of sources from which you can reasonably gain CP. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Olor]

As a response to no one in particular, because I'm too lazy to find a quote:
A change to allow JP to be shared across jobs would be a disincentive to playing jobs for fun. I've seen plenty of people do Delve as WAR, BLU, THF, RUN, and DRK and many of them claim to do it for the JP. Also, the job-exclusivity of JP allows people who are have been playing their job for a while to distinguish themselves from people who just finished Aby-Leeching the job to 99 and capping merits. Previously, there was almost no benefit to dedicating time to a job. EXP/Merits can be leeched. Gear can be acquired from quests or events (Delve) that don't require you to be on the job, etc. In my opinion, this is a good thing.

I agree with this completely.

The system needs some work, but they don't have to completely destroy it or turn it into something it was never meant to be.
It was meant to be something for long term goals, leave it that way! They just need to tune the effort:reward ratio a bit better and increase the number of sources from which you can reasonably gain CP. Nothing more, nothing less.

I also agree with this - with the caveat that job points need to be a bonus, not a job fix. It's simply not reasonable to say "oh well pets can't hit the broad side of a giant monster even with acc food - lets fix it with job points" - people should be able to play their job in current content with zero job points - the points should be a bonus not basic.

[Afania]

Hmm no, I'm comparing an average/good ToAU pt to what is either the average/optimal solo setup for many jobs.
A MNK posted a while ago in these pages saying he gets 18k on MNK, which is certainly not a BRD (speaking of which, I get way more than that on my BRD but then again I'm a Mythic BRD so I don't really count like "average" either ) .
I get 17k on my RUN.
The world outside is full of people who get numbers like these if not even lower.
Yes, some jobs (3? 4?) have it better. What about everybody else?

Just curious, did you really farm CP on BRD or are you joking? Lol >.> I was just guessing and using it as an example >.>

I didn't argue that none AoE jobs could have a harder time to farm point, that's the reason why I suggested SE to remove the job restriction so every job can grind point faster by job change.

Sure, I can make alternative suggestion that EVERY job can farm CP faster solo, but then the job that's already farming fast would ended up farming even faster.

I feel 20hr~30hr of gameplay to cap 1 category is "just right" due to how short endgame current content is. By the data you provided, other jobs would need 3 times more effort to farm equal amount of job point. If every job including BRD and WHM can cap 1 category in 20~30hr of grind, then BLM would ended up finishing 1 category in 6~10hrs.

Personally, I think it'd be a little too fast unless SE can create content faster or create content with longer life span. For past 4 months all we got was higher BC and new skirmish, which doesn't last nearly as long. So we'd see a wave of players finishing 1 JP category after 6hr of grind and complain about nothing to do in game again.

If SE can create content that lasts longer, I wouldn't object 6~10hr of grind for 1 category.

I guess every server is a different world then, because I don't really remember those strict gear checks.
Majority of people weren't even using stuff like Windower Script macros, let alone stuff like Spellcast or Gearswap back then.
RMEs weren't a "requirement" (because hardly anybody had one) and people were usually getting invites based on reputation or... lack of alternatives I guess.

Of course RME weren't a requirement, E didn't exist back then, there are less than 10 mythic owner per server.

If you try to get a pt on PLD SCH etc, it's hard.

Why does the only alternative be this?
Why can't it be "we expose the issue and SE does something about this system to make it more even for all jobs"
Why can't it be this way? Why is the only available option "dealing with it"?

I don't mind if CP gain rate is even for all jobs, but I don't see a way to make it even for all jobs. Some jobs will always grind CP faster regardless. They can create a content that gives 60k/cp per hour, but the content itself will probably exclusive like every other content.

It's more about an ideal impossible to accomplish, rather than against the ideal.

Sorry for the cut, but it's a recurrent topic of your post.
Afania... this is a forum post among players of a videogame.
It's not an university essay about statistics.
What, did you expect people to post semi-parametric Statistical inference?
I don't see why you're behaving like I tried to act allmighty and give this impression.
I have estimations, averages, general stuff with some numbers provided.
The 20k/hr number wasn't based on the fact that some people can easily do 60k/hr solo, that I can do 90k/hr with a good pt or that Byrth can do 100k/hr solo with his BLM.
It was mostly based on my experience on a plethora of other jobs (yes, they exist) and other players which get actually lower than that.
Yes, 20k was maybe a bit lower, I probably should have used something like 25k/hr, but then again I don't see how you could call such a small difference "highly biased".
It's just a small difference which is perfectly legit from my point of view within the range of exreme approximation I was trying to achieve.

It doesn't matter if you're making a point about university essay or video game design direction, if you want to make a point, you need to back up your reasons with numbers. I find the number you were using are quite different from my personal experience and what I've read on the internet, and you based your entire argument around it by adding them. So I just pointed that out.

You can argue that my personal experience is narrow, but I can make the same argument for your numbers as well. We all made argument based on personal experience, but it is possible that our personal experience is narrow minded and wrong info.

Thus I use the highest number I've heard and read on blogs/forums, instead of limiting it with my personal experience only. 28hr of grind to cap is my personal experience, I also shared many other's experience as well, which is higher.

No I said something different.
I said there is an important subjective aspect in that, I didn't say it's "purely subjective".
You have to see it on a large scale.
If 10 people say it's fine and 990 say it's not, who do you think it's going to get more attention/relevance?

It's human nature to complain stuff is bad, without seeing the big picture though.

Of course it's easy to complain about gear/content that takes longer than 5hr to finish because "I only play 5hr a week, I'd like to obtain 1 item per week or else I'm wasting my time".

But if you look at it from the profit POV, 5hr is too short in the realm of MMO. Once ppl play for 5hr and finish everything, they'd go to next game.

Thus I wouldn't say 990 player's opinion are always more relevant, I have to read what they say and see whether their points make sense.

I would LOVE to finish everything in 5hr and complain about this game about the pace with everyone else, but I know if I play this game for 5hr and get it done with, most ppl would quit and I'd waste half of my sub sitting in town doing nothing, thus I don't really complain about the pace of the game.

Afania, again, how can you call it subjective?

I don't think we were talking about the same thing. When you said "subjective" in my post, I was replying to Olor's post about his/her opinion of "Everyone else that's more hardcore than me should gtfo and quit"

I'm not advocating anything, just like I'm certainly not asking them to make JPs as irrelevantly pointless as XP/MP are today (please: no!).
But at the same time it's pretty clear this system, atm, is not balanced in several, multiple aspects that have been sufficiently enough exposed during this thread.
The fact that some people can infact "escape" this thing thanks to playing on one of the few lucky jobs or thanks to the fact they can afk and leech CP surely doesn't make the system less "unbalanced"?

Please, do not treat me like I'm an envyous kid who has zero JPs and wants to cap before tomorrow because I'm totally not that kind of guy (as a matter of fact, despite me playing only a few days a week I already have more than 170 farmed JPs).
I'm not talking out of personal interest or personal bias.
I'm talking from as much as an objective point of view as I can do.
I'm not on either side of the extremes, not on the side of who wants JPs=MPs, not on the side of who wants JPs to stay like they are now.
I consider both stances to be exagerations.
The system needs some work, but they don't have to completely destroy it or turn it into something it was never meant to be.
It was meant to be something for long term goals, leave it that way! They just need to tune the effort:reward ratio a bit better and increase the number of sources from which you can reasonably gain CP. Nothing more, nothing less.

I definitely agreed that the system needs some work, and I definitely agree that everyone should be able to solo 1 category to cap in 20~30hr, which is a number I feel right.

I simply disagree with 2 opinion you made, one is the fact that you calculate CP/hr based on subpar setup then compare it with pink bird merit pt in ToAU, another one is your argument about "this is 2014, the pace is faster, so JP farm should be faster too".

I forgot to reply that 2014 post of yours, so I'll reply here. 2014 pace is faster than 2006, which is fact, I didn't say it's not. But I think without afterglow/JP/mythics, current pace is TOO FAST for a MMO that it's bad for the game.

So we need some slower paced content to balance it, and I feel job point is a good content to give ppl something to work on. It's not like you're forced to do it, if you don't like it don't do it.

[Demonjustin]

I did a quick google search about MMO user data and found an article on Gamasutra.com, it says avg MMO player plays 22hr a week, with 50% of them working full-time.

So unless you're playing 22hr a week, you don't represent the majority, nor have the right to pop on a forum and tell everyone else to fuck off, sorry!

My normal play time was 4~8 hours a day every day. Assuming 4 hours a day that's 28 hours a week, I meet your criteria, **** off.

Ok no really I'm not going to be like that. I admit my play time has died off completely so if you want to ignore my opinion then by all means do so. I'm still going to speak my mind here. I enjoy this game and would like to play it, I just don't see a point in it at the moment and don't enjoy it, so why bother? If I give feedback I can help change it to make it fun enough to make me want to play again. So with that said if you don't think my feedback worth listening to then by all means ignore me, but Imma keep leaving feedback so hopefully I can enjoy this game again.

[Afania]

My normal play time was 4~8 hours a day every day. Assuming 4 hours a day that's 28 hours a week, I meet your criteria, **** off.

Ok no really I'm not going to be like that. I admit my play time has died off completely so if you want to ignore my opinion then by all means do so. I'm still going to speak my mind here. I enjoy this game and would like to play it, I just don't see a point in it at the moment and don't enjoy it, so why bother? If I give feedback I can help change it to make it fun enough to make me want to play again. So with that said if you don't think my feedback worth listening to then by all means ignore me, but Imma keep leaving feedback so hopefully I can enjoy this game again.

Nope, 28hr is higher than 22hr, so you're still not the majority! You can't be the majority if you're more hardcore than the majority!

Also idk how faster mythic/JP farm is equal to a FFXI that's more fun, but w/e.

[Selindrile]

What I disagree with is that blu does not have great job point categories. The best one of course is the increase in spell points. The cap was 60, but it will be 90 when the cap on job points increases. That is godly, a 50% increase. Increases in base damage of spells, percentage increases in skillchain damage, conserve MP when chain casting the most powerful blu spells, how are any of these not great? The only bad one was learning chance, but that is being replaced with a passive accuracy bonus, and accuracy is very important in end game.

Set Points: Awesome, no doubt, debatably the best job point category, though I'd give it to pet haste if Bst could actually use their pets effectively in any real content.

Azure Lore Effect: Increase the base damage of spells during this effect by 1 per upgrade: Once per hour, your spells will end up doing maybe +100 damage accounting for multipliers at 30/30, lets say you get off 6 spells during your 1hour which is pretty optimistic, and not usually efficient to just spam spells anyway. 600 Damage an hour, for playing inefficiently, woo, even during a zerg while you'd gain some extra damage from spamming spells your still better off just TPing/WSing outside of CA, so realistically it's more like +100~150 damage for one spell once an hour.

Unbridled Wisdom: For 1 minute per hour, +Up to 90 conserve MP, which means it will proc almost every time, but you have to realize Conserve MP when procced conserves on average 28% of the spells cost, so, all mathed out, it's "Your spells refund an average of 25% of their value for 1 minute out of an hour. Again, saying you're playing sub-optimally and spamming high MP cost spells like thrashing assault, and other quick ones, lets say you get off 6 spells that cost 100MP base, you conserve 150MP, in an hour, again likely playing inefficiently during this time to get more use out of this.

Burst Affinity: Nobody uses this outside of cleaving, and everything you cleave dies in 1 BA'd spell generally anyway, even if you did fully JP it, it wouldn't push most magical spells into the realm of usability, they're mostly pretty unusable outside of cleavable content, in which case this doesn't matter.

Chain Affinity Effect: On most party content, DDs' WS spam prevents you from getting full use out of this, but, it's overall not bad, chaining for 4k or so when you do means about +1200 damage each CA (at 30/30), which IS rather nice IF you can manage to get the chains off during WS spam, in solo content, almost all mobs won't live through a chain anyway without this.

Learning Chance: An absolute joke as is, but admittedly will be pretty good when they reforge it into Macc for physical additional hit spells, but our hitrates are rather atrocious on these as is on anything higher end, will this make up for it, maybe, we'll have to see, this one has potential.

tl;dr : Blue JPs are 3x crap, 2 situational, and 1 excellent one, but yes Blu is still ahead of the curve on job points alone, admittedly most others are really terrible. But Blu still in the middle of the pack for overall job usability. They're still no Brd or Whm or Sam, or Mnk, or Rng or even Pld or Cor or Rdm in most endgame desirability, they fall in around Drk and War as sometimes acceptable jobs, depending on content, but I full well admit they need less help than some other jobs.

[Demonjustin]

Also idk how faster mythic/JP farm is equal to a FFXI that's more fun, but w/e.

That would take a lot of explaining on what type of person I am which is completely off topic so talking about it here seems out of place.

In FFXI I have few goals left I wish to achieve. I've got basically all of the gear I wanted and one of the last few goals I had to do were my Mythic and Job Points. Over the last two months I've done a large amount of farming in Dyna and Salvage for gil as well as doing my Assaults, Ein, and so on, on top of joining every Job Point party I saw. In the end I got bored of it all and it resulted in my current status of not playing much if at all.

You don't understand how making them faster is equal to making it more fun, but honestly if I made more progress more quickly and felt like I was getting somewhere or actually had completed my goals, I'd be playing right now. My ability to play FFXI has largely been based on a maintained momentum from completed fast paced short term goals with my motivation sustained by my friends and linkshells who kept me company and made it worth playing. In the last few months my friends have left, quit, or we've grown apart, my LS of 3 years broke down finally, and I ran out of short term goals to keep me going. As a result I took on one of the long term goals in full force, rather than my normal side project mentality I normally had with them. As someone who requires visible progress and a feeling that the progress made is meaningful Mythics and JPs just don't work well for me. They take too long and as a result I can't continue with them and keep myself motivated so I died down and stopped completely, and without any short term goals to work toward at the moment I really have nothing to kick start my want to play again.

Basically, without any short term goals to help boost my momentum and motivation I run out of acceleration and simply stop. Without any friends to help between short term goals it's the same result. It's like boost pads on the ground in those old cart racing games, you hit one and it boosts you for a few seconds, that's what short term goals are for my long term. But without any, I can't win the race, my long term goals never get done because I get bored and I feel like I'm making no progress. Making it faster to complete makes the progress I make each day larger overall, as a result it helps make me feel the worth is worth it and keep up my momentum. The same goes with JPs, during double JP campaigns I actually can do JPs without much problem because it feels fairly fast and the momentum keeps me going. Without that it feels so much slower and I just can't bother to stay awake, let alone in the party.

I love the game, I love it's gameplay, I just hate it's long term goals. You have two extremes, either everything is done in a couple of hours like Delve and Merits or everything takes months to finish like Mythics and Job Points. I can't stand that, it's a terrible system.

[Mefuki]

Don't you think it'd be good for the game to have both short AND long term goals? If everything we short term, everyone would cap out on everything, get bored(usually) and quit. If everything were long term, everyone would feel like they were spinning their wheels not getting anywhere, get bored and quit.