Effort to reward ratio for job point categories

[Tidis]

I do remember a room in Dho Gates that was full of non-aggressive Twitheryms and Acuexs that I tried to use as a CP camp during the double campaign but I got bored and didn't particularly grind exp effectively, dunno if that's the area Afania is referring to.

[Demonjustin]

I personally used to do Pugils and Crabs. Can get there from Foret #4 Dho entrance and following the left wall once inside, one reive in the way but it's cake.

[Zarchery]

I think the comparison to TOAU era merit parties is somewhat apt, except that it leaves out what I think is the single biggest failure of the job points system: the individual pools per job. I can get 18,000 an hour solo... on Monk... which kinda works because Monk is the job I want job points for. But if I want them on something like BLM I'm pretty screwed. I've gotten some really amazing rates in Woh Gates.... when I have a Bard. I do have Bard levelled and would gladly bring it to the party.... except I have no need for Bard job points.

I think I'm still going to endeavor to get Chakra to level 10 since I'm pretty close, but if it goes to 30... forget it. 415 extra job points under the current system is absurd.

[Malithar]

If you include rolls that's not really solo, unless you go there on COR.
And which ring are we talking about? The 100% bonus one that is a one-time only ring and has only 12 charges?
Or the 5k Sparks one with 50% bonus?
Assuming it's the latter and assuming you're talking about numbers outside of the doubleCP campaigns, you're telling me you get 400cp per kill without chains. Correct?
How many seconds does it take for you to kill one of these targets, accounting for the engage, disengage and player movement time aspects?

He's on Cor, as has been said. I do the same at prolly the same camp, 3x Umbrils near the Marjami zone line. Umbrils take 2x fire and stone damage, I'd imagine he's just meleeing them with trusts and killing with Wildfire/Fire Shot. His numbers are accurate with the +50% ring with no campaign, though I don't do it on Cor so no idea on what the roll adds. Repops are fast enough that you can get into the low teens CP chains until you lose the chain.

[Rhonda]

I honestly don't understand why Mythics and Job Points in general should be basically off limits to "casual" players when there are long term meaningless goals in the game such as afterglows that people can go after if they so desire.

JP can be acquired quite easily in high-level events like Outer Ra'Kaznar Skirmish, which is still quite popular, and Delve. I know a few people who are 6/10 in two or three categories just from playing events and doing JP PTs exclusively during Double Capacity events. I also have seen people with one or more fully-capped categories but I know they've done JP PTs specifically to get to where they are.

As for Mythics, while weapons that can be used forever are kinda silly for an MMO (imo), they're meant to be the best weapons in the game - supposedly with stats commensurate with the onerous requirements. There are plenty of viable alternatives and all content can be completed without Mythic.

For who? I've had KI for tojil for months and still don't have enough plasm to get my 119 sword. Just cause a very small group of people can do things that way doesn't mean the whole game should be built around them. Job points on a horrible grind only make the gaps between the players that have no problem getting plasm and delve 119 gear and normal casual players bigger. That in turn further fragments the playerbase. Its a bad strategy. Frankly - I'd rather the no-lifers be bored than the game return to "horrific-grind fantasy"

I used to be able to log in for a couple hours a few times a week and feel like I was making progress on my character. Now everything just feels slow and grindy and boring.

Afania's numbers really are the best-case scenarop but Delve1, the more friendly Delve, gives about 70k Plasm with a maximum duration of 45 minutes. That's 5 successful runs for the Sword, totalling 3hr 45m. Even if you tried to fail your way into the Sword, it would take 20 runs. That's 15hrs at maximum but most wipes happen at around the 30 minute mark which shaves off quite a bit of time.

Anahera Saber, Claidheamh Soluis, and even Iztassu +2 should also be enough to get Bura, if you've really got your heart set on it, for whatever reason.

I wish they would just put CP on anything that gives exp. Then I could derp around on my BST doing something more than grinding very boring mobs. Like I could (example) go camp an old NM or something - I wouldn't be getting a lot of CP but I'd at least be gaining it while doing something else. Or I could farm dyna on my BST instead of my THF - accepting lower currency for the advantage of getting CP on the job I want it on rather than a different job.

Higher level Dynamis monsters already give about 75 CAP per kill. Outside of Abyssea, anything Lv.96 and above gives some amount of CAP.

As a response to no one in particular, because I'm too lazy to find a quote:
A change to allow JP to be shared across jobs would be a disincentive to playing jobs for fun. I've seen plenty of people do Delve as WAR, BLU, THF, RUN, and DRK and many of them claim to do it for the JP. Also, the job-exclusivity of JP allows people who are have been playing their job for a while to distinguish themselves from people who just finished Aby-Leeching the job to 99 and capping merits. Previously, there was almost no benefit to dedicating time to a job. EXP/Merits can be leeched. Gear can be acquired from quests or events (Delve) that don't require you to be on the job, etc. In my opinion, this is a good thing.

[Afania]

Afania, how about you stop ignoring valid arguments and changing them into something the original poster didn't mean at all.

I didn't change anything, I only pointed out the data discrepancy of the original poster. If you want to present an argument, you can't use data that's biased nor invalid, or else your entire argument is invalid.

I'll respond the rest about data discrepancy with OP's reply below.

15k wouldn't really have been much of a "good" party in the ToAU era, but yeah, numbers were around those, I was trying to give approximate number, not mathematically exact ones.
I don't want to bicker with you Afania, but I'm afraid you're forgetting some important factors when comparing CP/hr to LP/hr.

First of all, let's say a good ToAU pt gives 30k merit point/hr, and your solo rate is 20k/hr. So I guess that you aren't soloing on efficient jobs(which is not your fault due to the JP mechanic btw)

You're comparing an optimal ToAU pt setup with subpar setup for CP solo.

Mind you, in order to have a good 75 ToAU pt, you DO need DD x3 COR BRD RDM, and your DD need decent gear as well, AND an empty camp. If you go with setup like BLM x4 or BLU, I highly doubt you can pull off 30k/hr.

If you want to compare the rate/hr with an optimal ToAU pt, then you should also compare it with optimal CP solo job. You can't just use the data from an optimal setup and another data from subpar CP solo job and present your point.

Further more, about the "majority of ppl can't pull of 60k/hr solo argument":

6. Your 60k/hr "numbers" are bollocks because they literally apply to almost none of the jobs in this game. I'm not even going to get into if they are accurate or not because it doesn't matter. Your argument is still flawed because even if they are "the system is fine if you can switch to BLM or BLU to get your CP" is NOT reasonable.

7. And finally even if your numbers above were accurate or applicable to the majority, which they're not, you think 28 hours of continuous game play is a warranted investment for a lot of these categories. As I said in my last post, I don't know what else to say to you.

You're right, the avg merit point/hr is probably a lot higher than avg CP solo/hr. That's because the fact that only a few job can solo CP well and the fact that good method to solo CP aren't well known lower the CP/hr avg.

Most ppl grind merit point at 75 era only use piercing DD x3 COR BRD RDM, with a very strict gear check......no tiger pants no merit pt for you.

Since you don't get invite on jobs like BLU, forcing everyone to job change to a better job, the avg merit pt/hr was increased. Further more, at 75 good camp locations are already well known after years, while good cp solo spot/method are still unknown by the majority cuz CP is new.

On the other hand, if you want decent CP solo rate, you'd need specific job, if you want to grind CP for jobs without AOE nor cor roll bonus, you'd have no choice but deal with it. Without the option to increase CP gain rate via job change, CP gain/hr is inevitably lowered.

But then again, would you consider that "average"? Because that's what I was trying to do, create an approximate average.
I may have been a bit below with 20k cp/hr, but I don't really think I was *that far* honestly.

The point is that, if I'm going to present a data to support my argument, I'd have to filter out the subjective/biased factor. Or else the argument is invalid because your argument is based on subjective/biased factor.

When you present the data, you can't optimal v.s suboptimal setup, nor ignore other factor affecting the avg gain rate.

Sasaraixx said "You can't argue that the CP rate is fine cuz only a few jobs can do it", so OP can use a merit setup only a few jobs can do, but I can't? Double standard.

So sorry, Sasaraixx, OP's data and his argument about the point gain rate is still not as valid as you said. Now let's move on to his next argument, reward/effort ratio.

1. It's 30kCP for 1 Job Points, vs 10kLP for 1 Merit Points (3:1)
2. Aside from a couple of Merit Categories, Job Points are much more expensive with the additional upgrades
3. Psychological factor now, not practical but still very important nonetheless. Aside a couple of notable exceptions, JPs atm are much less relevant than MPs. With the result that you work more for something that gives you less. It has a huge important in the gratification and how the subjective effort:reward ratio feels for every different player, do not underestimate it please, just because it's not a "number".

I didn't deny the fact that JP category is less potent than merit point. But even you agreed that reward/effort ratio is purely subjective.

For example, IMO building an Amano is a complete waste of time, because Tsuru is better and faster to obtain.

However, plenty of players still insist to build an Amano, and they feel the reward is worth it.

Personally, I don't think 28hr of grind for something like 10STR is bad reward:effort ratio. This is obviously MY opinion, if you think it's not worth it, I respect your opinion as well.

However, if you want to use your subjective opinion to advocate certain design is bad, then it won't be as convincing. Thus we still need numbers and math to support argument about reward effort ratio.

Or else we can all pop on the forum, complaining the reward:effort ratio is bad becasue R15 takes 2hr to obtain, just because "I only play 5min a week".

If you want to argue certain design is bad, you can't have your argument based on your personal experience, rather you should use your personal experience to supplement it.

3 /sigh You're not worried about future category expansions because you're confident they will make it easier to grind JP. . . In other words, if they don't change the current system it will be a ridiculous undertaking! You literally just proved our point while disagreeing with us.

Not sure what's wrong with that? My conclusion of "current rate is fine" is based on the data of 28hr to cap 1 category, and the fact that research shows avg MMO player plays 2hr a day. I don't have any data from the future, so no comment on the JP gain rate when it's 30 point per category. Maybe when the JP category increase to 30 the avg solo rate would be 100k/hr instead.

I don't jump into conclusion based on the data I don't have, all my opinion about the game design are purely based on the current data available, while filtering out any biased elements like my points above. I'm not sure why is this proving your point while disagreeing with you, seems like you just want to argue for the sake of wanting to argue.

2. Did you really just respond with "people don't spend most of their time grinding job points. They have nothing else to do SO THEY SPEND MOST OF THEIR TIME GRINDING JOB POINTS?" I just can't . . .

Not sure what you mean by that, I don't think it's relevant to the argument anyways. It seems like you're not interested in arguing the point, only want to argue for the sake of wanting to argue. Despite OP data is biased, even his points are a lot more valid than yours.

The current JP system would have been perfectly fine by 2006's standards, even later.
It's like a fish out of water with the current (retarded, imho) pace/rates of the game nowadays.
I'm sure you realize this, and if you do, then you shouldn't be surprised many players are unhappy about the JP system rates.
Wether you agree or not, you should be able to understand the other people's point of view.

IMO, I think ppl are unhappy about JP rate/hr because the mechanic stops ppl from hitting the most efficient rate/hr and overestimated the actual time required to complete it. Considering the amount of ppl spend more time on building an Amano for 0 increase even in 2014, I don't think THAT many ppl would hate less than 28hr of grind for 10 STR.

[Rhonda]

I think the comparison to TOAU era merit parties is somewhat apt, except that it leaves out what I think is the single biggest failure of the job points system: the individual pools per job. I can get 18,000 an hour solo... on Monk... which kinda works because Monk is the job I want job points for. But if I want them on something like BLM I'm pretty screwed. I've gotten some really amazing rates in Woh Gates.... when I have a Bard. I do have Bard levelled and would gladly bring it to the party.... except I have no need for Bard job points.

Naturally some jobs can solo better than others but you'll find MNK, BRD, and a variety of other jobs that are interested in getting JP. Shout for more people. Even if you only end up with a trio, you'd still be able to raise the JP per hour rate, especially if you manage to grab some type of Support job. The failure is less one of the JP system and more one related to comparing Solo JP/hr to Group EXP/hr. Good EXP PTs, ones with actual people and not Trusts, had strong DDs as well healers and support that aren't flaky.

I think I'm still going to endeavor to get Chakra to level 10 since I'm pretty close, but if it goes to 30... forget it. 415 extra job points under the current system is absurd.

The system currently works well within the 10 Point per category limit. They've said they were going to raise the cap to 30 but they've also said they were going to make JP easier to acquire in the future.

[Afania]

I honestly don't understand why Mythics and Job Points in general should be basically off limits to "casual" players when there are long term meaningless goals in the game such as afterglows that people can go after if they so desire.

By your own logic you're in the wrong, the masses want JP to flow more freely, game design should cater to the majority of players, not the minority. Let the corner cases grind for their afterglow if they're desperate for a grind, this content is no more engaging than that, let everyone else grind less and do more interesting content more.

I'm not against more JP from current game content, but I'm against Olor's POV that the game should build entirely build based on his/her pace of playing the game.

I also don't understand WHY you guys insist that current playerbase is either extremely casual or extremely hardcore, to a point that it's delve2 weapon or afterglow but nothing else.

There are extremely casual players, there are semi casual players, there are semi hardcore players and there are very hardcore players. This isn't one way or another, to a point that every goal either has to be extremely casual or extremely hardcore.

I play around 6~8hr a week, all my LS(with 20+ ppl), my friends on FL, some players I often play with(that's around 40 ppl btw, quite a bit in 2014 when each server has less than 300 active player on NA time), has similar amount of play time and they can get items with similar pace as me.

So if we want to get a delve R15, it'd take us 2hr of gameplay. I play 6~8hr a week, so I can get 3~4 R15 per week.. I got all other BC item at similar pace as well.

If every mythic/capped JP are as easily done as R15, I'd already finish all of them by now. Because 2hr of work to get something done just isn't long enough to support 6~8hr of game play a week to worth $12 a month sub.

If I build a mythic or grind JP, I can finish them in about 3~5 months, which is just right to worth $12 a sub.

If I go build an afterglow, based on the fact that afterglow is 7x more expensive than RME, it'd take me 21 months~ 35 months to finish them.

IMO, 2hr of work to finish something is too fast and I wouldn't pay sub for it, 21 months~35 months to finish something is too slow so I still wouldn't pay sub for it, 3~5 months is just fine and worth $12 a month.

So, what makes you think that only players that's more casual or more hardcore than me(and ALL of my friends/lsmate) deserve a goal with a reasonable length?

I didn't ask casuals to be filtered out, there are content for them, they're not wasting $12 a month having no reasonable content to play with.

I don't ask requests based on what I need as well. I love 3~5 months goals, but I don't ask SE to change every delve R15 into 3~5 months of work, I also didn't ask the SE to nerf afterglow into 3~5 months of work either.

So, what gives you guys and Olor the right to ask the dev to change EVERY content/goals based on what he/she needs?

Oh and btw, about Olor being the "majority", all I can say is lol. He/she said he/she has BRD leveled and often play BRD, with so many /shout looking for a BRD every server, still can't farm enough plasm for a sword after 6 months?

Olor is certainly not the majority, get real. It seems that Olor either didn't bother to join pt for them, or often not on. Most of the BRD can farm enough plasm in 6 month if they try. In fact the time Olor spends reading this forum, he/she can already get one.

You can't pop on a forum, claiming "I'm the majority, only my opinion counts!" while not really playing the game nor care about making progress in game, and proceed to dismiss other's opinion because they actually spend time to play the game.

Dictatorship much? Cater to the majority shouldn't be the same as eliminate everyone else that's not the majority, especially in Olor's case, He/she is a player that reads the forum more than playing the game. What makes you think Olor's opinion represents everything?

[Afania]

I did a quick google search about MMO user data and found an article on Gamasutra.com, it says avg MMO player plays 22hr a week, with 50% of them working full-time.

So unless you're playing 22hr a week, you don't represent the majority, nor have the right to pop on a forum and tell everyone else to fuck off, sorry!

[Afania]

That scenario being "better" is your, respectable, but subjective point of view. It's not an undeniable, absolute truth.

I don't agree, for sure there are "better" design directions when it comes to game design, which is based on MMO user data research, and it's certainly not all being subjective.

MMO is a product to make money, so the most important factor is to keep as many customer as possible. Olor's argument was pretty much "I'm casual, only my opinion counts because I can't obtain a tojil weapon after 6 months, if you're more hardcore than me, screw you! Go fuck off and play another game".

So, a MMO designed just for Olor is better MMO than a game that's designed for more ppl than Olor? Doesn't sound convincing. If Olor's opinion is legit, that means me and my entire network of connections would have to quit.

Some things in the universe are just not as subjective as you claim. If everything is as subjective as you claim, we wouldn't need game designers.

Aside from that, I'm afraid you're underestimating the amount of time necessary to really "finish" capping JPs on more than one job (and with finish I intend FINISH, not "getting one category to 10 and ignoring the rest 'cause you don't like/want it").
Please stop watching only at the current JP system, but imagine the system in its evolution over time, the cap to 24 different categories and the cap at 30/30 in each of them (465 JPs to cap a single category).

Even no-lifers who bot 24 hours a day with 100k cp/hr would have SERIOUS ISSUES in really capping multiple jobs. And we're talking about a negligible, hardly influencing minority of players in the grand scheme of things.

I already gave my opinion about the JP system after cap increase.....I don't comment on anything that I have no data for, and I'm pretty sure by that time the most efficient JP gain rate/hr would increase as well. I only made comment about current rate/hr.

If you include rolls that's not really solo, unless you go there on COR.
And which ring are we talking about? The 100% bonus one that is a one-time only ring and has only 12 charges?
Or the 5k Sparks one with 50% bonus?
Assuming it's the latter and assuming you're talking about numbers outside of the doubleCP campaigns, you're telling me you get 400cp per kill without chains. Correct?
How many seconds does it take for you to kill one of these targets, accounting for the engage, disengage and player movement time aspects?

Actually any job can get COR roll by /COR, just that COR main has more potent rolls. I'm not sure whether SAM/COR or DD/COR can reach same lv of efficiency without better rolls. I do use WHM+ BRDx2 trusts for march + haste, but that's still solo!

I was talking about 5k spark ring, without rings it's around 400 CP per kill without chains, correct.

I didn't count the seconds, it kinda vary based on how good the pulls and how good the buff was. Most of the time the target die in 2 WS or 2 WS+ 1~2 QD.

The player movement doesn't matter that much since the camp I use has enough mob for me to do CP chain 20+, not alot of running around.

If you're seriously into detail I can probably make a vid >.>